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Prophet Zacharia

So this is America

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So, this is the Mayor of Minneapolis issuance of the State of Emergency Curfew declaration.

 
Interesting read. 
 
Shortform, no one must travel on any form of transit including by foot.  Public means any place whether private or public the public can access.  ie: your front porch. What I thought was questionable is pretty black and white.  Read the document.  It isn't long.   Now, do the police or military have the right to deter with weapon?  I assume but I am not going looking for it.  Did they have to use force?  Maybe not but you heard the order to fire after several demands to go inside. 

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11 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

That’s not how laws in the US work. 

Well it is actually.  I don't write them.  I only stated what I found.  Read on.  I also found the Mayors decree which has some info in it. 

The information is free access nowadays.  It just takes a little time to find it.   

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56 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

My porch is public property?

Then why do I pay taxes on it?  Why do I hold the deed for it?  It is not public property.  I can ask people to leave it.  I can fence it in.

Okay, now go read the Mayors declaration of emergency curfew on page 2.  K falls is not included but this is Minneapolis.   Clearly, the curfew states no travel by any means, even foot.  The definitions show "Public space" as any space the is privately owned or publicly owned, the the public can access.  ie: your front porch. (if you lived in Minneapolis. :)  

Some definitions and some laws change with the declaration of an emergency.  It does in aviation as well.  People should always read these declarations so they know to stay within the laws.   I posted a police/ customer event that took place in New Brunswick.  The driver of a car was told by police to move the vehicle.  He wasn't cooperative and argued that it is a free country.  Canada is a free country but we have laws and those laws change when an emergency is declared.  The driver was wrong in not moving because the officer told him to.  The emergency laws clearly state that disobeying a police officer during the declared emergency is a violation of the law.  

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My daughter is freaking out because the Kohl’s right behind her apartment is boarded up and cops are all over the place. She also saw an Antifa announcement that tonight is attack the suburbs night. Could be phony, but she’s nervous. She’s going to sleep over at her Mom’s. Apparently she is well armed. The Walmart in my neighborhood is closed and barricaded. 
She said this is gonna get better soon, isn’t it? I said you haven’t been reading your Bible lately. 

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5 minutes ago, BuffJim said:

My daughter is freaking out because the Kohl’s right behind her apartment is boarded up and cops are all over the place. She also saw an Antifa announcement that tonight is attack the suburbs night. Could be phony, but she’s nervous. She’s going to sleep over at her Mom’s. Apparently she is well armed. The Walmart in my neighborhood is closed and barricaded. 
She said this is gonna get better soon, isn’t it? I said you haven’t been reading your Bible lately. 

I hope she travels to her Moms safely. 

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33 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Well it is actually.  I don't write them.  I only stated what I found.  Read on.  I also found the Mayors decree which has some info in it. 

The information is free access nowadays.  It just takes a little time to find it.   

Show me the section where it allows law enforcement to fire on you for a non-violent violation.
I’ve posted the penalty for violating curfew, it up to 90 days in jail and $1000 fine. 

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5 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

I hope she travels to her Moms safely. 

Just got a text that she did get there safely. Our neighborhood app is reporting rioting or looting  at 2 spots within a mile from me right now, but I can’t hear sirens. 

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Now she texted that there are several U haul vans in my town (2 miles from here) where people are shooting from the vans. That is nuts. 

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This is the sad point.  Police brutality is a thing, no doubt.  They have killed unlawfully.m, no question. 

But I’m watching an unlawful gathering where the protestors are throwing rocks & explosives at police.  The police surge to disperse the crowd. 3 guys refuse to disperse, cops tell them to leave, they don’t, cops shove one dude to get him moving.  Dude does a flop that would make a soccer player proud while his two accomplices video.  Buddy drags his friend off like he’s been shot as his legs clearly don’t work now.   Helo follows them around the block and the guy that gets dragged off runs away with his buddies.  But damn we got good video, All Cops Are Bad right! 

This is what bothers me with the video.  After days of rioting a bunch of cops comes down your street. Get in your house! Disobey order. Get in your house!  Disobey order. Get in your house! Disobey order.  OMG did you see what the police did to us!?!!   Good thing we got it on video!!! Outrage! ACAB!!!

 

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52 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Show me the section where it allows law enforcement to fire on you for a non-violent violation.
I’ve posted the penalty for violating curfew, it up to 90 days in jail and $1000 fine. 

I would look for that in the US Department of Justice website, Maybe the Inspector General states it but for crowd control, the less-lethal weapons are listed.  I don't know that they need special authority to use approved weapons.  Probably just guidelines.   I would look but I am going to bed.  I have to work in the morning. 

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3 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

This is the sad point.  Police brutality is a thing, no doubt.  They have killed unlawfully.m, no question. 

But I’m watching an unlawful gathering where the protestors are throwing rocks & explosives at police.  The police surge to disperse the crowd. 3 guys refuse to disperse, cops tell them to leave, they don’t, cops shove one dude to get him moving.  Dude does a flop that would make a soccer player proud while his two accomplices video.  Buddy drags his friend off like he’s been shot as his legs clearly don’t work now.   Helo follows them around the block and the guy that gets dragged off runs away with his buddies.  But damn we got good video, All Cops Are Bad right! 

This is what bothers me with the video.  After days of rioting a bunch of cops comes down your street. Get in your house! Disobey order. Get in your house!  Disobey order. Get in your house! Disobey order.  OMG did you see what the police did to us!?!!   Good thing we got it on video!!! Outrage! ACAB!!!

 

Chris, as a cop did you need special authority to use less-lethal weapons to control a crowd? 

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1 hour ago, Further said:

I agree in principle, but it sure does piss me off 

The people who create the situation that leads to this piss me off.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Chris, as a cop did you need special authority to use less-lethal weapons to control a crowd? 

It does depend but given current events (and I have been a part of riots dispersals) no.  You deploy with your use of force directives already clear. You know what you can & cant do in pre deployment briefing.  It’s a fluid situation so you have broad directives and objectives and then roll out. 

However I do agree the optics of the non lethal balls fired on a family seemingly standing on the porch is troubling to me.  I really wish they had just gone in their house as ordered.

Edited by ChrisL
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My city just put out a 8 pm curfew.  I live near a landmark high end mall (basically the Rodeo Drive of malls).  Apparently the LE intelligence community has tipped off local law enforcement of a plan to riot & loot the mall.

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13 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

However I do agree the optics of the non lethal balls fired on a family seemingly standing on the porch is troubling to me.  I really wish they had just gone in their house as ordered.

I agree. I have been accused of kissing cops asses because of it but shit doesn't happen if you just do what the cops instruct. 

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I just heard several gunshots go off from not too far away from my home.  

...and a large aircraft just flew over.  National Guard?

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@ Wilbur, can you tell me about large aircraft coming in here?

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With no strong national leadership voice appealing for calmness, this could be a long and violent summer.

 

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6 hours ago, Dirtyhip said:

@ Wilbur, can you tell me about large aircraft coming in here?

That will be National Guard movement.   

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11 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Disagree, they stood the looters down and they moved on.  All it takes is for one person to say enough.

The lady stood her ground and a bunch of people joined her. It was good to see. 

It wouldn't be smart to presume that looters are normal people and can be reasoned with, this is a faulty take. 

Taking on looters didn't go so well in Couch's video, and I imagine that is the most likely scenario when dealing with looters.  True looters are not concerned with legalities like not assaulting people, and the most likely scenario for attempting to intervene is getting beat up at best.   Taking on a mob is not healthy for citizens, and this is especially dumb when you have no personal stake (like in a large chain like REI).  The motives are good, but the result is normally not going to be.

Ask yourself if you would tell your kids to get between looters and a store, or even just go out during a riot and do that yourself.

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11 hours ago, Further said:

That looked like a second story balcony with no access to the street.

If that was the case, it would be cut and dried.  I thought it was just hilly and the porch was atop stairs.  Again, you would have to see how the law is written exactly in this case.

Even so, if you have ever played paintball you would get why eye protection is so important.   It is easy to see how someone could lose an eye.  I would hope the cops would be sure of their position and of the law, but the police break, disregard, or don't know the law with stunning regularity in my experience.

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8 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I have been accused of kissing cops asses

Because you can't presume that what cops do is always right and always must be obeyed.  They aren't always right and often give illegal orders.  

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Violence works on the emotions of both sides during a riot.  If you know better than to get in the way of looters than you should know better than to disobey the police.  They are also not in a particularly good frame of mind.

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The police said, "Get inside," a number of times to the CURFEW VIOLATORS and they refused to obey the law.

I don't have a problem with the police here, police whose members may have been hospitalized or worse by criminals among the protestors. They did what they were told to do by the people ELECTED to tell them what to do.

When I in my 30's in the early 1980's, I was driving myself and 6 other Jaycees back to my neck of the woods, late at night, from a meeting of the Waldorf, MD Jaycees.  Suddenly, at the intersection of two country roads, a police car appeared and blocked the road in each of the four directions, police got out of their cars and knelt behind the open doors with guns drawn, and a cop with a bullhorn ordered us to get out of the car with out hands up.

So guess what we did?  We got out of my car with our hands up!  DUH!

A cop called out, "It's NOT them!" and suddenly the four cars disappeared down the road, trying to find whatever criminals were driving a car similar to mine.

We were shaken by the incident, but recognized the police thought they were risking their lives to catch criminals and made no complaint to anyone.

 

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Protests started in my town now. It was reported that a bus of antifa and a group of BLM people were coming yesterday.  I am not sure if the busloads were true or just a rumot to discredit the protesters.  They were on main street.  On one side of the street you had protesters with signs for Floyd.  The other side of the street had tons of armed locals.  Cars were driving the downtown loop like a parade.  Lots of American flag waving.  Many political flags being waved.  Tons of people down there had guns.  Lots of guns.  ARs, and the like were in heavy presence.  These armed locals all stood in front of the store fronts.  Some of them had their finger ON the trigger.  That is terrifying.  You don't put your finger on the trigger until it is time to shoot.  Additionally, if the protesters started to walk towards the other side, what were they going to do about it?  Start shooting into the crowds of people on the other side?  

Mostly our parade looked more like a 4th of July parade, only with lots more guns. 

I watched this play out on like feed, as I stayed the F home from it.  I heard about 6 shots come from the southwest, I think.  That is slightly normal.  We hear gunshots from our home now and again.  Locals shooting in the air?  No a lot of news about people shooting each other.  So, I am not sure where those bullets went. 

I can say that we were ready here, if something went down in my neighborhood.  It was mostly quiet in my neighborhood.  I live within walking distance to downtown.

 

 

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Thank you @Wilbur

I figured that might have been their aircraft.  

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America is well on the way to becoming a third world country 

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It was reported that a bus of antifa and a group of BLM people were coming yesterday."

I keep seeing "it was reported" about White supremacist groups, too.   A lot of people that I know who don't normally deal in rumors have been hot and heavy with the "outsiders'" rumors.  And we're seeing no hard facts, just "someone said"

Oh. no doubt there's a lot of opportunists.

But my concern is that there's a lot of thinking that the PO'd people are peacefully protesting and the violence is all some plot makes it REAL easy to not accept that just maybe the black community really has gotten this angry about the situation.   How many years of trying to be heard can you put p with?

Not saying my take is more correct, but I try to deal in truth, and the perspective that I can't know their perspective

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2 minutes ago, 12string said:

It was reported that a bus of antifa and a group of BLM people were coming yesterday."

I keep seeing "it was reported" about White supremacist groups, too.   A lot of people that I know who don't normally deal in rumors have been hot and heavy with the "outsiders'" rumors.  And we're seeing no hard facts, just "someone said"

Oh. no doubt there's a lot of opportunists.

But my concern is that there's a lot of thinking that the PO'd people are peacefully protesting and the violence is all some plot makes it REAL easy to not accept that just maybe the black community really has gotten this angry about the situation.   How many years of trying to be heard can you put p with?

Not saying my take is more correct, but I try to deal in truth, and the perspective that I can't know their perspective

I also keep hearing the weirdness, and things like the incredulous "some of the protesters aren't even from here" statements.  No shit, morons, some came from small towns where they aren't having protests to the nearby towns that are big enough to have them.   People don't have to put others up to having protests at this point, people are ticked and have had enough.   I wish people were taught to critically examine things before repeating, but it seems they aren't.

Seems calmer today, cross your fingers.

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11 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

 I wish people were taught to critically examine things before repeating

I see a lot of people who normally are good at critically examining just repeating the "outsiders" stories.  That what makes me think it's more of an unconscious desire to not admit it really IS as bad as it looks.

I understand that reaction FAR more than I understand the plight of the real protesters

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7 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Seems calmer today, cross your fingers.

Daytime is not really the challenge.  Curfews in cities generally eventually sort out the regular protesters who are happiest during the day expressing their concern and the looters and other types of criminals who prefer the dark. Put some curfews into place and focus on the ones breaking it.

 

21 minutes ago, 12string said:

Oh. no doubt there's a lot of opportunists.

Definitely some sort of agitators - whether right or left wing azzclowns - those folks are out there inciting and causing problems.

 

22 minutes ago, 12string said:

But my concern is that there's a lot of thinking that the PO'd people are peacefully protesting and the violence is all some plot makes it REAL easy to not accept that just maybe the black community really has gotten this angry about the situation.   How many years of trying to be heard can you put p with?

Folks (generally non-black folks) will look for any reason not to rock the boat or actually have to work to address some of the issues around racism in the US (and world).

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7 hours ago, MickinMD said:

 

The police said, "Get inside," a number of times to the CURFEW VIOLATORS and they refused to obey the law.

 

 

Ok, fine, but you don’t shoot people simply for not following an order within 12 seconds when there is no imminent risk. This shows a horrendous lack of discipline (and training, IMO). 

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20 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Ok, fine, but you don’t shoot people simply for not following an order within 12 seconds when there is no imminent risk. This shows a horrendous lack of discipline (and training, IMO). 

Not arguing your point but they could also have been following orders. Still troubling but at a whole different level.   

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2 hours ago, 12string said:

That what makes me think it's more of an unconscious desire to not admit it really IS as bad as it looks.

I think it’s worse than it appears, for two reasons. One is I think African Americans are fed up and are as angry as these protests suggests. Two is I do believe there are agents on both sides of the political extremes that are contributing to the unrest, both with words and actions. The video that @Razors Edge shows above (I forget which city this was) is supposedly that of a police officer, identified by his ex- wife. He’s not Anafta, not BLM, but looking to create chaos, presumably to make those above groups look bad. The person who disrupted a peaceful protest in Pittsburgh by smashing and lighting a cop car on fire is a 20 year old white kid from a non-impoverished suburb. No idea what his motives or political ideologies are, but looking for a chance to cause trouble. And everyone online is ready to condemn everyone else. So yes, it’s REALLY bad all over, IMO.

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12 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Not arguing your point but they could also have been following orders. Still troubling but at a whole different level.   

Then it’s really bad leadership to instruct your troops/officers to fire at people standing quietly on their porch. Do you think for a second that if one of them had stepped onto the curb and announced “if you don’t go into your home right now or you will be arrested/ticketed” that they wouldn’t have gone in? Or if by a small chance they still refused, do you think a threat “if you stay outside I will spray tear gas into the area” wouldn’t have scattered them?

 There is zero reason to fire rounds at them. 30 seconds of conversation would have ended the situation. But won’t have given the NG their firefight.

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29 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Not arguing your point but they could also have been following orders. Still troubling but at a whole different level.   

I think for people not accustomed to being ordered about like criminals, it really catches them off-guard, especially since they thought they were already complying on their private property.  It takes longer than 15 seconds for the law-abiding to process that kind of thing.   The cops just went full asshole on them right away with no regard to their safety, which is kind of why people are rioting in the first place.  To PZ's point, there were plenty of law enforcement folks there, a small detachmment going over and advising them  for a few seconds to step inside would be super helpful rather than just shooting up non-threatening folks on a porch.

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Ok, fine, but you don’t shoot people simply for not following an order within 12 seconds when there is no imminent risk. This shows a horrendous lack of discipline (and training, IMO). 

I think the we've seen it can easily be as low as two seconds?

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3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I think the we've seen it can easily be as low as two seconds?

It can be less than that. 

I have told this story here before, but I was walking home one night in Chicago, and I heard footsteps running near me (but not at me), and turned to see a guy running diagonally across the street.   It seemed sudden, but two unmarked and two marked police seemed to show up out of nowhere, and I hit the ground and looked up.  I saw a cop get out of the car, draw gun, shout "freeze" at the running guy and fire two shots all in less than a second.  The cops weren't looking for compliance, obviously, they wanted a body. 

I talked to some plainclothes guys I knew a couple of days after and told them about it.  They said it sounds like the guy maybe shot at a cop or something major and they wanted it taken care of then and there.  They weren't worried about getting the wrong guy, I am pretty glad they knew it wasn't me!

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I think it’s worse than it appears, for two reasons. One is I think African Americans are fed up and are as angry as these protests suggests. Two is I do believe there are agents on both sides of the political extremes that are contributing to the unrest, both with words and actions. The video that @Razors Edge shows above (I forget which city this was) is supposedly that of a police officer, identified by his ex- wife. He’s not Anafta, not BLM, but looking to create chaos, presumably to make those above groups look bad. The person who disrupted a peaceful protest in Pittsburgh by smashing and lighting a cop car on fire is a 20 year old white kid from a non-impoverished suburb. No idea what his motives or political ideologies are, but looking for a chance to cause trouble. And everyone online is ready to condemn everyone else. So yes, it’s REALLY bad all over, IMO.

You just did EXACTLY what I was surmising.

What I surmised is worse than we think is systemic racism, not the riots.  We don't want to admit that the riots might actually be this bad because racism is so bad and the black community is so fed up.  So, we deflect the severity of the riots - it's Antifa, the White supremecists, etc.  And maybe the riots are this bad because the reason for them is this bad.

BTW, that video of the "police officer" has already been debunked.

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8 minutes ago, 12string said:

You just did EXACTLY what I was surmising.

What I surmised is worse than we think is systemic racism, not the riots.  We don't want to admit that the riots might actually be this bad because racism is so bad and the black community is so fed up.  So, we deflect the severity of the riots - it's Antifa, the White supremecists, etc.  And maybe the riots are this bad because the reason for them is this bad.

It’s absolutely both. And some really peaceful protestors. And I think there is a different mix of each in every protest.

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There was a small protest in my town, about 5 people. The Facebook comments about it on the local news page make me ashamed of my town. The racism is boiling over. And there were a bunch of comments wanting to know if they were locals or outside actors. It was five folks with a little kid holding signs chanting black lives matter.  The amount of comments insinuating violence against protesters was shocking. 

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We had a protest next town over.  They blocked the street in front of the police station and knelt silently for 9 minutes.  Some cops joined in.

My eldest daughter's house is (so far) out of the war zone. The youngest walked to work Saturday morning, then it all took off.  She was able to get a ride home through it all without incident.  She drove to the hospital yesterday (they ave a garage), but by the time her shift was over, all the streets were closed.  She was abe to show she was "essential", so cops let her through.  Her apartment is only a couple blocks from the riots.  Again, so far.

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They are back at it again downtown. The crowd has grown to about 30. Still peaceful.

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18 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

It’s absolutely both. And some really peaceful protestors. And I think there is a different mix of each in every protest.

There is a different mix depending on the time of day.  Daytime protests seem to have older crowds.  They get it on with the protest thing.

After 10pm it's a much younger crowd with skateboards, bikes, cell phones out to record how brave they are and lots and lots of lighters.

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2 hours ago, Allen said:

There was a small protest in my town, about 5 people. The Facebook comments about it on the local news page make me ashamed of my town. The racism is boiling over. And there were a bunch of comments wanting to know if they were locals or outside actors. It was five folks with a little kid holding signs chanting black lives matter.  The amount of comments insinuating violence against protesters was shocking. 

The mayor is passing out water bottles. A good gesture. 
So far it is peaceful. 
There was tear gas in Athens last night. I don’t think anything like that will happen here.

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2 hours ago, Allen said:

There was a small protest in my town, about 5 people. The Facebook comments about it on the local news page make me ashamed of my town. The racism is boiling over. And there were a bunch of comments wanting to know if they were locals or outside actors. It was five folks with a little kid holding signs chanting black lives matter.  The amount of comments insinuating violence against protesters was shocking. 

Sorry and scary to read this. :(   Are people that threatened by other people who don't fit the local norm?  Or maybe it's tv images that's influencing folks.. still not right.

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7 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

Sorry and scary to read this. :(   Are people that threatened by other people who don't fit the local norm?  Or maybe it's tv images that's influencing folks.. still not right.

I’m not sure. A couple of folks commented that they believed in the second amendment, bring it on. There was a big row about Black lives matter vs all lives matter.  Several calling for the protesters to be arrested, that they were not wanted and I’m quoting, “in our good old boy town.”

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60's all over again.

It wasn't all flowers and free love

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14 hours ago, Randomguy said:

Because you can't presume that what cops do is always right and always must be obeyed.  They aren't always right and often give illegal orders.  

I don't presume they are right.  I presume if I do what they tell me to do, I will live to fight another day. 

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43 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

I don't presume they are right.  I presume if I do what they tell me to do, I will live to fight another day. 

Ha, generally what I do, too!

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