Breaking ties with the Boy Scouts

[Allen ★]

I don’t have kids so I’m not active with the troop. But for years I’ve had them come annually to camp, fish my trout, learn how to tie flies, and cast. 
I have come into a row with one of the troop leaders who proudly displays the confederate flag and spews that the South will rise again. That racist iconography and sentiment is not welcome on my land. 
I will not allow children to be taught to be accepting of such beliefs in my presence. Either he has a serious come to Jesus moment, or they kick him from the troop, or they lose the privilege of my hospitality. 

[Kzoo]

1 minute ago, Allen said:

I don’t have kids so I’m not active with the troop. But for years I’ve had them come annually to camp, fish my trout, learn how to tie flies, and cast. 
I have come into a row with one of the troop leaders who proudly displays the confederate flag and spews that the South will rise again. That racist iconography and sentiment is not welcome on my land. 
I will not allow children to be taught to be accepting of such beliefs in my presence. Either he has a serious come to Jesus moment, or they kick him from the troop, or they lose the privilege of my hospitality. 

Good for you.

 

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, Allen said:

I don’t have kids so I’m not active with the troop. But for years I’ve had them come annually to camp, fish my trout, learn how to tie flies, and cast. 
I have come into a row with one of the troop leaders who proudly displays the confederate flag and spews that the South will rise again. That racist iconography and sentiment is not welcome on my land. 
I will not allow children to be taught to be accepting of such beliefs in my presence. Either he has a serious come to Jesus moment, or they kick him from the troop, or they lose the privilege of my hospitality. 

I'm pretty sure that he'd be in violation of countless Scout rules, so I'm sure he'll be booted if the leadership became aware of the situation.  At the least, a letter to BSA headquarters will be put in his file.

[Allen ★]

This is what he posted on his Facebook today:

 

[jsharr ★]

32 minutes ago, Allen said:

I don’t have kids so I’m not active with the troop. But for years I’ve had them come annually to camp, fish my trout, learn how to tie flies, and cast. 
I have come into a row with one of the troop leaders who proudly displays the confederate flag and spews that the South will rise again. That racist iconography and sentiment is not welcome on my land. 
I will not allow children to be taught to be accepting of such beliefs in my presence. Either he has a serious come to Jesus moment, or they kick him from the troop, or they lose the privilege of my hospitality. 

Stand your ground.  The BSA is good organization, but there are bad apples in every barrel.

[jsharr ★]

24 minutes ago, Allen said:

This is what he posted on his Facebook today:

 

Bring it to the attention of the local district and council.  It will be dealt with swiftly.

[Allen ★]

Just now, jsharr said:

Stand your ground.  The BSA is good organization, but there are bad apples in every barrel.

I hate not having them come out. Makes me proud to watch a kid catch his first fish, or teach a dad how to actually cast his fly rod. 
But I will not tolerate bigotry in any form. 

[Parsnip Totin Jack ★]

4 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Stand your ground.  The BSA is good organization, but there are bad apples in every barrel.

And bad bullets in every gun 

[Allen ★]

8 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Bring it to the attention of the local district and council.  It will be dealt with swiftly.

Done. I emailed the Sweetwater district with a link to his Facebook. 

[ChrisL]

Good on ya for taking a stand on this.  Maybe I missed this in other posts but how much land do you have?  Trout fishing streams too?!!!  

What kinda property you sitting on?

[Allen ★]

7 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Good on ya for taking a stand on this.  Maybe I missed this in other posts but how much land do you have?  Trout fishing streams too?!!!  

What kinda property you sitting on?

100 acres about 60 miles east of Atlanta. I have a pond and stream with a couple of small waterfalls that I yearly stock with trout.  About 2/3s of my land is forested, 20 acres of which are virgin land. That’s where my lighting bugs and some rare flowers are located. We also have an airstrip that my father used to fly his ultralite from. I was born out here. The house is a mid century modern, Mother was the designer. 

[MickinMD ★]

3 hours ago, Allen said:

I don’t have kids so I’m not active with the troop. But for years I’ve had them come annually to camp, fish my trout, learn how to tie flies, and cast. 
I have come into a row with one of the troop leaders who proudly displays the confederate flag and spews that the South will rise again. That racist iconography and sentiment is not welcome on my land. 
I will not allow children to be taught to be accepting of such beliefs in my presence. Either he has a serious come to Jesus moment, or they kick him from the troop, or they lose the privilege of my hospitality. 

It's surprising how strong admiration for the Confederacy persists. Even Robert E. Lee, James Longstreet (who became a U.S. Senator after the war) and many other Confederate leaders preached loyalty to the Union to their Southern brethren after the war. There are a lot of southern people who come to Maryland, a Union state, but feel it's natural to fly a confederate flag of sticker on their cars.

The prettiest woman I ever personally had as a friend, a girl named Holly who I went to college with, said that when she was a little girl, her father made her say her prayers before going to sleep at night and she had to end them with, "God bless Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and the Southern Confederacy."

Holly was bright enough to grow out of that, but I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of kids who get similar bullshit on a regular basis and it's sure to affect them as adults.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

3 hours ago, jsharr said:

Stand your ground.  The BSA is good organization, but there are bad apples in every barrel.

I have no doubt that they will.  The next question is what to do about a guy who doesn't like you and knows where you live.

[Allen ★]

54 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I have no doubt that they will.  The next question is what to do about a guy who doesn't like you and knows where you live.

I still stand my ground. I hear one whiff from the guy I reported I’ll slap him with a restraint order. 

[Airehead]

4 hours ago, Allen said:

I don’t have kids so I’m not active with the troop. But for years I’ve had them come annually to camp, fish my trout, learn how to tie flies, and cast. 
I have come into a row with one of the troop leaders who proudly displays the confederate flag and spews that the South will rise again. That racist iconography and sentiment is not welcome on my land. 
I will not allow children to be taught to be accepting of such beliefs in my presence. Either he has a serious come to Jesus moment, or they kick him from the troop, or they lose the privilege of my hospitality. 

I am glad to see you stand your ground as a respectable role model. Thank you. 

[Allen ★]

I have a meeting with the pastor of my mother’s church. The scouts have their lodge on the church property. 
She is out of town at the moment but has scheduled a meeting with me on Sunday when she returns (the church is currently closed due to covid). 
It’s going to be a difficult conversation. There are no children of color in the troop. That could very well be coincidence, but one does have to wonder if it could be by design. Also if I were a black parent I would be horrified to send my child to that troop if I knew one of the leaders, in a position of authority over the children, normalized racism. 
It reflects badly on the troop, and it reflects badly on the church. 

[jsharr ★]

9 minutes ago, Allen said:

I have a meeting with the pastor of my mother’s church. The scouts have their lodge on the church property. 
She is out of town at the moment but has scheduled a meeting with me on Sunday when she returns (the church is currently closed due to covid). 
It’s going to be a difficult conversation. There are no children of color in the troop. That could very well be coincidence, but one does have to wonder if it could be by design. Also if I were a black parent I would be horrified to send my child to that troop if I knew one of the leaders, in a position of authority over the children, normalized racism. 
It reflects badly on the troop, and it reflects badly on the church. 

So if the Church is the "chartered organization" they effectively own the troop.  Trailers, gear, everything.  And someone at the church has to be the Chartered Organization Representative, basically the liason between the church and the troop.  Finally, the chartered org rep has to sign off or approve each adult leader in the troop.

Just some background.  Feel free to call or message me if you have questions about how Scouts works, or is supposed to work anyway.

[Allen ★]

8 minutes ago, jsharr said:

So if the Church is the "chartered organization" they effectively own the troop.  Trailers, gear, everything.  And someone at the church has to be the Chartered Organization Representative, basically the liason between the church and the troop.  Finally, the chartered org rep has to sing off or approve each adult leader in the troop.

Just some background.  Feel free to call or message me if you have questions about how Scouts works, or is supposed to work anyway.

Thank you, sir. I did not know this. Also thank you for telling me to report this to the district council. I didn’t know where to start beyond not letting the kids fish any longer. 
This one has really gotten under my skin. 

[jsharr ★]

Just now, Allen said:

Thank you, sir. I did not know this. Also thank you for telling me to report this to the district council. I didn’t know where to start beyond not letting the kids fish any longer. 
This one has really gotten under my skin. 

BTW, you are in the Sweetwater District of the Northeast Georgia Council, but I think you know this.

https://www.nega-bsa.org/Sweetwater

https://www.nega-bsa.org/

So each Troop is part of a District.  

A district can be part of a city, or county, depends on population density.

Each district has a paid employee of the Council called a District Executive.  This should be your first point of contact above the church.

In larger Councils, like Circle Ten in Dalls, the Council is broken into regions called Service Areas and each Service Area has a paid supervisor for all the District Executives.

All the districts in an area make up a council.  The council has paid staff to help deliver the scouting program to all the units in the council.

Here is a map of my Council.  Our Troop is in Norhtern Trail District in the North Central Service Area of Circle Ten Council.

[Allen ★]

4 minutes ago, jsharr said:

BTW, you are in the Sweetwater District of the Northeast Georgia Council, but I think you know this.

https://www.nega-bsa.org/Sweetwater

https://www.nega-bsa.org/

So each Troop is part of a District.  

A district can be part of a city, or county, depends on population density.

Each district has a paid employee of the Council called a District Executive.  This should be your first point of contact above the church.

In larger Councils, like Circle Ten in Dalls, the Council is broken into regions called Service Areas and each Service Area has a paid supervisor for all the District Executives.

All the districts in an area make up a council.  The council has paid staff to help deliver the scouting program to all the units in the council.

Here is a map of my Council.  Our Troop is in Norhtern Trail District in the North Central Service Area of Circle Ten Council.

It was  the Sweetwater office that I contacted yesterday. I spoke to one of the officers on the phone first and to whom I sent the email with a link to the offensive Facebook posts along with a few screen shots. 
 

I contacted my mother’s pastor because I think this fellow should be confronted by more than just me, a basic nobody. I think there should be ramifications for teaching children to normalize racism. He publicly posted his views on white supremacy, I think the church needs to have a discussion with the scout leaders on wether that is acceptable. 

[Digital_photog ★]

22 hours ago, Allen said:

100 acres about 60 miles east of Atlanta. I have a pond and stream with a couple of small waterfalls that I yearly stock with trout.  About 2/3s of my land is forested, 20 acres of which are virgin land. That’s where my lighting bugs and some rare flowers are located. We also have an airstrip that my father used to fly his ultralite from. I was born out here. The house is a mid century modern, Mother was the designer. 

Wow, we may be the 2 luckiest people on the forum.  I have 300 acres. 2 woods, one 5 acres and the other 36 acres.  1/2 acre pond with blue racer island in it.  one of the best trout streams in Indiana runs through my land.  The only stream in Indiana with proven spawn.  We have about 7 miles of sled dog trails in the winter.  We  have hosted numerous cyclocross races. A local Boy Scout troop is losing their meeting place and is talking with me about putting a cabin on my land for their use.  Will have to see if that works out. We enjoy sharing our property but some inconsiderate people who trespass  and damage things think I am an a-hole for have them prosecuted.

[Allen ★]

1 hour ago, Digital_photog said:

Wow, we may be the 2 luckiest people on the forum.  I have 300 acres. 2 woods, one 5 acres and the other 36 acres.  1/2 acre pond with blue racer island in it.  one of the best trout streams in Indiana runs through my land.  The only stream in Indiana with proven spawn.  We have about 7 miles of sled dog trails in the winter.  We  have hosted numerous cyclocross races. A local Boy Scout troop is losing their meeting place and is talking with me about putting a cabin on my land for their use.  Will have to see if that works out. We enjoy sharing our property but some inconsiderate people who trespass  and damage things think I am an a-hole for have them prosecuted.

I hear you. I love my land, couldn’t do without it. 
I have a neighborhood abutting me to the north. They hate me. I had a problem with a few of the parents letting their kids ride dirt bikes through the woods. The sheriff’s office put up trail cams and confiscated a few of the bikes. 
edit: dirt bike = motorcycle 

[Allen ★]

The pastor at the church said she would contact me Sunday, she didn’t. I called today, no response.  I’ll contact them again tomorrow and then write them off if I still have no response. 
I donated a stained glass window to the church in memory of my mother. It used to hang in the congregation’s original 1880s church. Sorta makes me feel that I wish I had not done that now. Then again I’m not a church goer. Not being an active member of her congregation she really has no obligation to hear my concerns. 

[Dottleshead ★]

On 6/23/2020 at 5:23 PM, Allen said:

I still stand my ground. I hear one whiff from the guy I reported I’ll slap him with a restraint order. 

You know, Allen, there's something about you I like.

[Zephyr]

On 6/23/2020 at 1:17 PM, jsharr said:

Stand your ground.  The BSA is good organization, but there are bad apples in every barrel.

Welcome to my world....  sigh......

[Airehead]

Shouldn’t matter if you are a church goer or not. She should care about opportunities for the scouts. When you write off the scouts, write her off too.  I would send a carefully worded letter to close the loop here. 

[sheep_herder ★]

10 minutes ago, Airehead said:

Shouldn’t matter if you are a church goer or not. She should care about opportunities for the scouts. When you write off the scouts, write her off too.  I would send a carefully worded letter to close the loop here. 

Sad to think she might disagree with his concerns.

[Allen ★]

4 minutes ago, Airehead said:

Shouldn’t matter if you are a church goer or not. She should care about opportunities for the scouts. When you write off the scouts, write her off too.  I would send a carefully worded letter to close the loop here. 

I’m not sure to whom to send a letter. I have not met the new pastor. I have yet to form a full opinion of her. First impressions have not gone well. I am not making plans to attend when they reopen. 

I did contact the Scout’s district office. Maybe they will look in to it. 
 

[Scrapr ★]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

I did contact the Scout’s district office. Maybe they will look in to it. 
 

I'd give the District office a week or so to respond. They probably want to cross their eyes & dot their t's before responding. They likely have to contact the Scoutmaster and see what's up.Maybe a statement from the offender. The District staff is paid but the Troop leadership is volunteer. So the Troop people may not see the urgency of the communication

[jsharr ★]

6 hours ago, Allen said:

The pastor at the church said she would contact me Sunday, she didn’t. I called today, no response.  I’ll contact them again tomorrow and then write them off if I still have no response. 
I donated a stained glass window to the church in memory of my mother. It used to hang in the congregation’s original 1880s church. Sorta makes me feel that I wish I had not done that now. Then again I’m not a church goer. Not being an active member of her congregation she really has no obligation to hear my concerns. 

Stand your ground and keep after the district executive. Or maybe bring it to the attention of a local paper

[Allen ★]

25 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Stand your ground and keep after the district executive. Or maybe bring it to the attention of a local paper

I’m calling my uncle tomorrow. He was a higher up in the Presbyterian diocese. He can tell me how to approach the church. 
I don’t know if I’m comfortable doxing the guy in our current volatile environment. I’m only active with them a couple of days a year.  I’m afraid that sort of spotlight could kill the troop. I’m not qualified to know what level of change in leadership the troop needs. But I am pretty sure if you are posting images of Elmer Fudd holding an AR and with amounts to a klan flag on his chest, you are scaring the hell out of every black family in scouts.  
 

The pastor at the church is new. She took over right before lockdown. I don’t know why she has not gotten back in touch with me. Maybe I’m sensitive but I do feel a bit put off. I would like to receive the return phone call. 

[Allen ★]

Just got off the phone with the pastor. She was at first reluctant to discuss this with with the Scouts or the Scout liaison. She wanted me to bring my concerns up with the troop leaders myself. I pushed back on that. My thinking it needs to be brought to the attention of the church and she as the pastor and the Scout liaison need to have the difficult conversation with the Scout leaders on what is acceptable. I also brought to her attention the possible ramifications of his posts going viral and how that optic would reflect on both the troop and the church. She agreed that would be an unwanted spotlight. 

I told her to research the Lost Cause of the Confederacy. That it would be helpful when the heritage not hate argument is brought up. I also mentioned that she is trying to rebuild the church’s youth ministry (the average age of the church right now is not much younger than the confederacy itself) and that having the Scout troop on campus is a great boon to that. She agreed, and said she would have the meeting with the liaison and get back i in touch with me in a week. 

[jsharr ★]

24 minutes ago, Allen said:

Just got off the phone with the pastor. She was at first reluctant to discuss this with with the Scouts or the Scout liaison. She wanted me to bring my concerns up with the troop leaders myself. I pushed back on that. My thinking it needs to be brought to the attention of the church and she as the pastor and the Scout liaison need to have the difficult conversation with the Scout leaders on what is acceptable. I also brought to her attention the possible ramifications of his posts going viral and how that optic would reflect on both the troop and the church. She agreed that would be an unwanted spotlight. 

I told her to research the Lost Cause of the Confederacy. That it would be helpful when the heritage not hate argument is brought up. I also mentioned that she is trying to rebuild the church’s youth ministry (the average age of the church right now is not much younger than the confederacy itself) and that having the Scout troop on campus is a great boon to that. She agreed, and said she would have the meeting with the liaison and get back i in touch with me in a week. 

[Allen ★]

He just posted more egregious shit on his Facebook page. 
I went through his friends list. There are scouts on there. 

[shootingstar]

2 hours ago, Allen said:

He just posted more egregious shit on his Facebook page. 
I went through his friends list. There are scouts on there. 

Though you have the support of forumites, here, I hope you will have a strong local ally with you for this situation.  Who else can you chat up locally about this?  Good to chat with your uncle to bounce off thoughts.

[Allen ★]

52 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

Though you have the support of forumites, here, I hope you will have a strong local ally with you for this situation.  Who else can you chat up locally about this?  Good to chat with your uncle to bounce off thoughts.

I kinda have the pastor on my side. She at least agrees that the flag is offensive. However she is concerned about curtailing his 1st amendment rights. My counter to that is he is broadcasting in public, he’s asking to be called out. He’s also asking for it to go viral. And this is the kind of thing that could easily go viral, it’s just one click and share away. 
 But until this afternoon’s phone call I was a lone voice in the dark. 
My doomer friend’s daughter is in the scouts, different troop. He says he will be happy to confront the scouts, he finds this offensive as well. But his would be a voice of anger, I don’t know if that would be helpful. Anger can be easy to dismiss. I’m encouraging him to contact the district office.
 My leverage over the church is pointing out the liability this sort of behavior creates. I’m using the pastor as my cudgel because I’m basically a nobody. I don’t have a kid to be in scouts, not active in the church, and I don’t have the wealth to wield power. So I’m figuring my best plan of attack is to convince those who do that it is in their best interest not to speak up for me but to speak up for themselves. I’m hoping the thought of protesters in front of the church resonates with them. 
We’ll see how her meeting goes with the scout liaison. 

 

[Airehead]

I think your approach is sane and logical.

[Allen ★]

9 minutes ago, Airehead said:

I think your approach is sane and logical.

Thank you. I appreciate the reassurance. I’m not comfortable with conflict and this is bound to make people furious. 

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, Allen said:

Thank you. I appreciate the reassurance. I’m not comfortable with conflict and this is bound to make people furious. 

I support you.  It's important to speak out on things that are wrong. Complacency never did any good.  As for the kid -- he obviously gets it from his old man.  I''d recommend that hotheaded neighbor of yours to go in guns ablazin'.

[Randomguy]

27 minutes ago, Allen said:

Thank you. I appreciate the reassurance. I’m not comfortable with conflict and this is bound to make people furious. 

You seem to be entirely reasonable in this endeavor.  Why would you lend your land/name to a person who is fomenting racism?  I hope you hear from the scout's leadership soon.

[Allen ★]

22 minutes ago, Dottles said:

I support you.  It's important to speak out on things that are wrong. Complacency never did any good.  As for the kid -- he obviously gets it from his old man.  I''d recommend that hotheaded neighbor of yours to go in guns ablazin'.

He’s not a kid. He’s a grown man who is an adult leader in scouts. He also does not have a child in scouts. 
 

[jsharr ★]

Here is a recent release from the Scouts that you might want to show your pastor

https://scoutingwire.org/bsas-commitment-to-act-against-racial-injustice/

[jsharr ★]

And here are the rules and regulations to which volunteers are to adhere

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/Rules_Regulations_June_2020.pdf

You should direct the Pastor to Page 12 Unit Leaders Section.
 

[Allen ★]

9 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

You seem to be entirely reasonable in this endeavor.  Why would you lend your land/name to a person who is fomenting racism?  I hope you hear from the scout's leadership soon.

Thank you, sir. 

[Allen ★]

5 minutes ago, jsharr said:

And here are the rules and regulations to which volunteers are to adhere

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/Rules_Regulations_June_2020.pdf

You should direct the Pastor to Page 12 Unit Leaders Section.
 

Jeff, I thank you. You have been invaluable to be. I truly appreciate it. 

[jsharr ★]

4 minutes ago, Allen said:

Jeff, I thank you. You have been invaluable to be. I truly appreciate it. 

Invaluable? Is that like Infamous?
 

 

[Allen ★]

I think I have done all I can do. 
I don’t want to blindside the troop with the upcoming conflict with the church. I don’t know the leader  of the troop (not the one posting this mess) well enough to approach him directly, but a good friend of his lives across the street. Him I know somewhat well. My across the street neighbor has agreed to broach the subject with the troop leader. So, instead of the troop coming to the meeting with the church empty handed they can at least say they are aware of the situation. 

With that I think I am done. It’s up to the Scouts and the church to decide what’s best for each other. 

[Airehead]

28 minutes ago, Allen said:

I think I have done all I can do. 
I don’t want to blindside the troop with the upcoming conflict with the church. I don’t know the leader  of the troop (not the one posting this mess) well enough to approach him directly, but a good friend of his lives across the street. Him I know somewhat well. My across the street neighbor has agreed to broach the subject with the troop leader. So, instead of the troop coming to the meeting with the church empty handed they can at least say they are aware of the situation. 

With that I think I am done. It’s up to the Scouts and the church to decide what’s best for each other. 

yep, now wait and watch

[Randomguy]

42 minutes ago, Allen said:

I think I am done. It’s up to the Scouts and the church to decide what’s best for each other. 

I forget, did you email the scout national and state leadership?

[Allen ★]

1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

I forget, did you email the scout national and state leadership?

I contacted the district office by both phone and email.