Streaming of high school kids academic vs. applied/technical to stop

[shootingstar]

So I didn't know that Ontario was 1 of few provinces that still streamed students by separating them at start of high school (gr. 9) --into academic vs. technical/applied courses/classes, etc.  This year they plan to more fully do away with the system.  But then I'm not a parent, so am clueless to trends.

Will say this though:  the judgement of a teacher can have a profound effect on a child later in terms of how they are encouraged/discouraged in their studies/path they take.  

 

[maddmaxx ★]

28 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

So I didn't know that Ontario was 1 of few provinces that still streamed students by separating them at start of high school (gr. 9) --into academic vs. technical/applied courses/classes, etc.  This year they plan to more fully do away with the system.  But then I'm not a parent, so am clueless to trends.

Will say this though:  the judgement of a teacher can have a profound effect on a child later in terms of how they are encouraged/discouraged in their studies/path they take.  

 

Totally changed my life.  I was more or less directed into engineering/science by my teachers, family and guidance but I really wanted to go to General Motors Institute.

Ended up being pushed into Rensselaer Polytech as a physics major.  That obviously didn't turn out well. 8 years later after two enlistments and a bunch of hands on tech training I started over.  I never did get to go to GMI.

[Razors Edge ★]

29 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

So I didn't know that Ontario was 1 of few provinces that still streamed students by separating them at start of high school (gr. 9) --into academic vs. technical/applied courses/classes, etc.  This year they plan to more fully do away with the system.  But then I'm not a parent, so am clueless to trends.

Will say this though:  the judgement of a teacher can have a profound effect on a child later in terms of how they are encouraged/discouraged in their studies/path they take. 

Yeah, I have no idea if that's a good, bad, or mixed bag sort of thing, but I would say that high schoolers (and kids in general) are SO VARIED in maturity and life wisdom, that it may be a great time to sort & focus a bunch of them, but also a horrible time for others.

If nothing else, it would make sense to keep options open for kids to choose their paths and to remove obstacles for them so that they can change when they do finally get an idea (often into their 20s!).

[MickinMD ★]

5 hours ago, shootingstar said:

So I didn't know that Ontario was 1 of few provinces that still streamed students by separating them at start of high school (gr. 9) --into academic vs. technical/applied courses/classes, etc.  This year they plan to more fully do away with the system.  But then I'm not a parent, so am clueless to trends.

Will say this though:  the judgement of a teacher can have a profound effect on a child later in terms of how they are encouraged/discouraged in their studies/path they take.  

 

There are some late-bloomers that could do well in academic courses after 9th Grade, but watch out: I hope Ontario doesn't go too far the other way like the USA did.

In the USA, the trend begun with the despicable No Child Left Behind program (known by teachers as "No Child Gets Ahead"), was to pretend that even Special Ed kids should take courses in Physics, high Algebra, etc.

The result was that the top academic classes got dumbed-down to let unqualified but admitted students pass, so top students were less prepared for college and that lower-level students were denied great paying jobs in auto repair, masonry, carpentry, etc. because the students were required to take ridiculously watered-down courses like "Elements of Geometry" that kept them out of Vocational Technology courses.

I was hired by my county's school system - in which I taught - for some summers in the mid 00's to evaluate how kids that went directly from high school into the workforce were prepared for it. I was hired because I was an industrial chemist before I entered teaching and understood the "real world."  I spent time at everything from Sun Room construction companies to restaurants to United Airlines operation at BWI Airport.

There were auto repair shop owners pointing out to me guys in their mid-20's with specialized skills in frame repair, certificates in air conditioning, etc. making $100,000/year with tons of overtime because too few auto mechanics were coming out of the schools. The repair shops of most of the major new car dealers in my area were renting repair bays out to subcontractors because they couldn't find enough mechanics to hire themselves.

They were literally begging the high schools to produce more trained mechanics, but the schools had their hands tied by No Child Left Behind.

Meanwhile, kids with learning disorders were memorizing things complicated enough they'd forget them two weeks later like, "If two parallel lines are crossed by a transversal, alternate interior angles are equal."

[maddmaxx ★]

5 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Yeah, I have no idea if that's a good, bad, or mixed bag sort of thing, but I would say that high schoolers (and kids in general) are SO VARIED in maturity and life wisdom, that it may be a great time to sort & focus a bunch of them, but also a horrible time for others.

If nothing else, it would make sense to keep options open for kids to choose their paths and to remove obstacles for them so that they can change when they do finally get an idea (often into their 20s!).

Remember this when you complain about what your plumber is charging you.

[Razors Edge ★]

24 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Remember this when you complain about what your plumber is charging you.

Exactly.  I want MORE competition in the trades, not less!  If I can choose between ten plumbers vs the one who actually returns my call, shows up almost on time, and has some proof of being bonded/insured.

I really don't feel "bad" a cost if the job is done well.  I'll pay a lot more for quality  (and trust).  I like having a friend who is a Honda mechanic w/ 30 years working on them (and other cars).  He charges me almost nothing, so I always end up giving him way more than his invoice price.  I know his work is well done and he backs up his job.

[maddmaxx ★]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Exactly.  I want MORE competition in the trades, not less!  If I can choose between ten plumbers vs the one who actually returns my call, shows up almost on time, and has some proof of being bonded/insured.

I really don't feel "bad" a cost if the job is done well.  I'll pay a lot more for quality  (and trust).  I like having a friend who is a Honda mechanic w/ 30 years working on them (and other cars).  He charges me almost nothing, so I always end up giving him way more than his invoice price.  I know his work is well done and he backs up his job.

I suspect that you missed the point.  IMO many of our high school students should be moving on to more lucrative training instead of attending college to become Communications majors.  Much of the pressure to go on to a name college is brought by parents, not because it's best for their children, but for reputation.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

I suspect that you missed the point.  IMO many of our high school students should be moving on to more lucrative training instead of attending college to become Communications majors.  Much of the pressure to go on to a name college is brought by parents, not because it's best for their children, but for reputation.

No, there are two points in there.  One is yours pointing out the need for skilled folks that can be both financially rewarding and personally rewarding.  And the second is that if we, as a society, increase our supply of those skilled folks, we will all benefit from more choices and more competition for our dollars. 

Most parents suck

[shootingstar]

6 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

 

If nothing else, it would make sense to keep options open for kids to choose their paths and to remove obstacles for them so that they can change when they do finally get an idea (often into their 20s!).

It's good to have options and let the child/teen feel comfortable which that comfort is influenced by teacher(s), proper assessments.  Here are 2 real life examples of people I know face to face....well:

1.  1 former close friend was put back 1 grade in elementary school (approx. gr. 4 or gr. 5) because probably her English language fluency was minimal when she immigrated to CAnada from Greece, with her family...at that time.  She is my age.

Anyway, I think 2 yrs. later or something, she was put back in my grade level with other kids. And guess what:  she graduated from accredited major Canadian university with 2 university degrees:  4 yr. BA in French Language and Literature.  Then BA in Education.  In Ontario, I believe you must have 2 university degrees to qualify to even teach in public elementary, middle and high school levels.  She actually taught full-time at our former high school!  Then....she became the French /Foreign Languages Dept. head in the high school.  When you are dept. head in Ontario high schools, you also must teach. I believe the school also provided elective German and Spanish courses for students.  Not after school.  This is a high school of approx. 2,000 students.  

 

2. A cousin's son, immigrated to CAnada when he was 9 yrs. old.  The family lived with me for 2 months since I had some "tight" room while I was completing my graduate degree.  The boy was put back 2 grades in elementary school becasue ...primarily of his English probably.

Anyway........ he completed high school and also graduated from a Polytechnical University  (Ryerson University) in Toronto which is a large publicly funded university (just like Univerity of Toronto) in Computer Sciences.  He is working IT in a Ontario government agency.

3. A brother-in-law who has a PhD and is an Engineering Professor (Engineering Sciences which can be the most theoretical/hardest engineering discipline) for past 30 yrs. at University of Toronto, did poorly in his final high school.  In the 60's.  Just shitty and not good enough to compete to get into any Canadian university engineering program...repeated his final year.  He got in.

In both 2 cases, I can't even stress enough:  sometimes a child knows they are good/smart but they are initially limited by language.  This is why ESL is critical, plus at home tutoring...and the parents having an interest in encouraging their child.  I was an ESL child, but born in Canada.  I began kindergarten not knowing any English.  My father was so adamant that we do well in school, including reading alot from library.

I had kind teachers. I also had some good friends...to socialize and use my English lanugage skills naturally.  Like all children should.