Where do old people go?

[Dottleshead ★]

If you own your home, then we all know where you go.  But what about all these aging folks that don't own their home? What happens if they're destitute?  Do they just wander off into the reeds and die?  What happens if they don't have any family?  What the hell happens if you don't have any kin left and you don't have enough money to go and live anywhere?  Asking for a friend.

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, Dottles said:

If you own your home, then we all know where you go.  But what about all these aging folks that don't own their home? What happens if they're destitute?  Do they just wander off into the reeds and die?  What happens if they don't have any family?  What the hell happens if you don't have any kin left and you don't have enough money to go and live anywhere?  Asking for a friend.

Canada?

[Further]

There used to be old hotels, a bar on the ground floor and cheap rooms upstairs. A lot of old men drank away their final years in them

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, Further said:

There used to be old hotels, a bar on the ground floor and cheap rooms upstairs. A lot of old men drank away their final years in them

That sounds horrible.  But maybe not as horrible sober.

[maddmaxx ★]

[Prophet Zacharia]

2 minutes ago, Dottles said:

But maybe not as horrible sober.

Probably worse if sober.

In Japan it’s become a problem of old people dying at home with no family and not being found for months. 

[Dottleshead ★]

So even for those folks who hire financial or retirement advisors, why do it if the end result is the same?  Sooner or later you're going to have to face the piper.  You're just prolonging the nastiness. Is it to try and extend the comfort as long as possible? I'm beginning to wonder.

[Parsnip Totin Jack ★]

I see a lot of homeless wandering around who look pretty old, but they could be my age and it was the miles not the years that made them look that way. There are woods near here with at least 30 tents set up. It’s a hard life and I’m afraid they will be the fastest growing segment of our society in the next ten years. 

[Tizeye]

Trying to think a little more positive...

There are a lot of places that one can retire to in Central and South America and even some countries in Europe and Asia where cost of living can be met with a single SS check.. $1200/mo and may include socialized medicine. Popular with ex-pats and particularly seniors/retirees. Medicare doesn't cover overseas, but some, like Mazatlan, Mexico is an easy drive or quick flight back to the States. Others, like Ecuador use the US$.

[Longjohn ★]

I think most old people go to Florida.

[Dottleshead ★]

11 minutes ago, Tizeye said:

Trying to think a little more positive...

There are a lot of places that one can retire to in Central and South America and even some countries in Europe and Asia where cost of living can be met with a single SS check.. $1200/mo and may include socialized medicine. Popular with ex-pats and particularly seniors/retirees. Medicare doesn't cover overseas, but some, like Mazatlan, Mexico is an easy drive or quick flight back to the States. Others, like Ecuador use the US$.

Your response has confirmed my stance.  If one is poor and beyond their years to support themselves -- or perhaps just can't afford rent -- then there is no place to go but the streets, correct?  If you're talking escaping into a third world country, then that's all you need to say.

[Dottleshead ★]

2 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

I think most old people go to Florida.

And yet there you are in Penn.

[Longjohn ★]

3 minutes ago, Dottles said:

And yet there you are in Penn.

Grandkids, MIL

[Dottleshead ★]

12 minutes ago, Tizeye said:

Trying to think a little more positive...

There are a lot of places that one can retire to in Central and South America and even some countries in Europe and Asia where cost of living can be met with a single SS check.. $1200/mo and may include socialized medicine. Popular with ex-pats and particularly seniors/retirees. Medicare doesn't cover overseas, but some, like Mazatlan, Mexico is an easy drive or quick flight back to the States. Others, like Ecuador use the US$.

Pssssssst.  What are the best counties to escape too??

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, Longjohn said:

Grandkids, MIL

Family!  Yeah, I've got none of that but drug users left after my dad passes.  Well, I do have In-laws but we're not that close.

[JerrySTL ★]

Nursing homes using Medicare and Medicaid.

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, Dottles said:

Pssssssst.  What are the best counties to escape too??

From International Living magazine/e-mail (I recommend just browsing these folks if not "subscribing" for free):

Why Portugal?
By Bob Burrows

Each year as my wife Cathy and I got closer to retirement age, I contemplated moving to another country more and more. I had been reading International Living articles for years and had a long list of possible countries to live in retirement. Cathy, however, was not gung-ho about any of them.

We visited Portugal in October of 2018. Sitting in an outdoor café in Lagos, I was eating piri-piri chicken and drinking a cold beer (I judge my beer by how cold it is). Cathy was having a chicken salad and a local red wine. A glass of house wine here is the price of water, sometimes less, and always delicious.

Cathy looked up from her salad and said, "You know, I could do this." That was all I needed to hear. It might have been the wine talking, but there was no turning back now. She will be the first to admit that there were times that she regretted having uttered those words. But not since we moved here.

We arrived here for good after Cathy's 68th and my 69th rotation around the sun, leaving our beloved Pacific Northwest behind. It was October 2019, exactly one year after our initial visit.

Leaving the grandkids behind was hard, but I assured Cathy that we would go back once a year and help them come out to visit us in Portugal once a year. And with today's technology, there would be plenty of FaceTime. (Besides, the older they got, the less we were seeing them. Their lives were filled with new friends and activities.)

Of course, plans have been altered temporarily with the coronavirus outbreak. Our grandkids had to cancel their visit to Portugal, and we had to cancel our trip back to the U.S. But this too shall pass.

Lying on the beach in Lagos in October was the closest thing to heaven I can remember. The sun was shining, the temperature was perfect, and the water was cool but not too cold to swim in. That sealed the deal for us. Portugal is where we wanted to be.

As much as we loved Lagos, during our next trip to Portugal in March of 2019, we chose to purchase a place in Ericeira instead. We sacrificed $300 in cancelation fees on our Lagos Airbnb to check out other locations on the Silver Coast of Portugal. We settled on Ericeira because it is an ancient fishing village, newly designated as a world surfing reserve. And it's only a half-hour northwest of Lisbon.

Without a doubt, Portugal and the warm-hearted Portuguese people had stolen our hearts. But another plus point that needs to be emphasized is the cost of living here. Cathy and I retired mainly on Social Security and pensions. We cashed in our equity on our home in the U.S. to purchase a place here. We couldn't have retired in the U.S. nearly as comfortably as we have here.

Although we spent a little more on a property to be near the beach, you don't need to go too far inland to find places so cheap that you have to wonder if they left out a zero. You can get a smallish, older house inland for around €70,000 (around $80,000). We paid about five times that for new construction in Ericeira. It is the top two floors of a six-unit apartment building with an ocean view and a 10-minute walk from the beach.

Our new apartment is about 1,500 square feet, with three bedrooms and four bathrooms. It's currently still under construction but we are hoping to get in by the end of this year. We are renting nearby in Mafra in the meantime. Construction moves slower here than in the U.S. Everything is brick by brick.

Rentals are hard to find in popular locations. In winter it isn't a problem but they get top-dollar in the summer, rented as Airbnbs. You can find a place in more remote parts of Portugal for about $285 a month, but Lisbon could cost you up to 10 times that.

Grocery shopping was a big shock. The first few times at the market, we had to double-check our receipts, certain that they had made a mistake somewhere (in our favor). Even good wine is not hard to find at only $3 to $4 per bottle.

Typically, a large bag of groceries will run us about $12. It is unusual for us to spend more than $35 on a grocery run, which we do two to three times a week. Vegetables are very cheap so I juice every morning. I have eliminated my expensive vitamin regimen altogether.

We pay $23 each for a good cellphone plan. Utilities run us about the same as in the States, maybe a little higher. Older houses are often poorly insulated, and cost a lot to heat in the winter, which was one of the reasons why we decided to purchase a new-build. I hate being cold!

Suffice it to say, Cathy and I are happy campers here. We are constantly impressed with the kindness of strangers and there is no shortage of good restaurants and fascinating places to visit.

Yes, we still miss the grandkids. Even more so now that there are so many travel restrictions. But we know that we will be seeing them soon. We are glad that we got our visas before all the government offices shut down. Others we know haven't been as lucky. They have been caught on the other side of the equation while in the process of relocating. Still, we feel confident that their efforts will be rewarded in time.  

The process for getting a visa and subsequent residency here is a bureaucratic labyrinth. There is a long list of paperwork required. And the requirements can change often, and sometimes depend on which office you are assigned to. But it is all doable and the financial requirements are not stringent. Mainly, they want to make sure that you won't be a drain on their economy or services. Our process took about a year (four months while in the U.S. and another eight months here), before we received our legal residency.

I would encourage anyone who is contemplating Portugal, and this lifestyle, to start the process now rather than waiting for everything to return to normal. You can at least start practicing your Portuguese (European, not Brazilian). I promise you that all your efforts in starting the legal process (and learning a bit of the language) will be well worth it.

[ChrisL]

We’re facing this with my MIL.  She has burned through most of her cash from the sale of her house.  She’s renting a room but it seems like the homeowner wants her out and she can’t afford rent on her own.  

Her kids are looking to put her in an Apt in a retirement community but without her kids help she’s SOL.  74 years old, no income really as she has no retirement fund.  She’ll end up with one of us at some point...

[Longjohn ★]

I thought for sure the long post was Dr. Mickin, still not sure.

[Razors Edge ★]

8 minutes ago, Dottles said:

Family!  Yeah, I've got none of that but drug users left after my dad passes.  Well, I do have In-laws but we're not that close.

You've got us Kzoo!

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Longjohn said:

I thought for sure the long post was Dr. Mickin, still not sure.

Cut and paste. Not much analysis. No photos. Not MICK!

[Allen ★]

3 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

Nursing homes using Medicare and Medicaid.

We had to convalesce Pop in a nursing home several times after broken hips and strokes. Even the nice ones are miserable.  All are expensive.  
 

 

[Tizeye]

45 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

I think most old people go to Florida.

Actually, I want to escape...but where???

Also, the major catch. If I moved anywhere, even inside the State, my property taxes would go up. That's what happens when in the same home for 30 years and the market appreciates greater than the appraisal. But sell and purchase a new home, fresh numbers for appraisal.

[Dottleshead ★]

41 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

Nursing homes using Medicare and Medicaid.

i.e. death lockers

[Ralphie ★]

There was a “rest home “ near me that they closed I thought to build something but the land has sat empty for decades. 

[Dottleshead ★]

6 minutes ago, Tizeye said:

Actually, I want to escape...but where???

Also, the major catch. If I moved anywhere, even inside the State, my property taxes would go up. That's what happens when in the same home for 30 years and the market appreciates greater than the appraisal. But sell and purchase a new home, fresh numbers for appraisal.

For this reason and the rates -- and the fact it appears I'll be working remotely for the forseeable future -- we are thinking about moving to another county where the property tax is 1/4 of what I'm paying now. Yes, it's going to go up there too, but at a lot slower rate.

[Kirby]

I've had friends with elderly parents who ended up in a long term facility on Medicaid.  Medicare provides only limited nursing care benefits.  I think the trick is to get into somewhere not so bad when you can still pay as places are more likely to keep you if you run out of money and go on Medicaid than if you're admitted on Medicaid (or so I've heard with no real support).

There are also some places both outside the US and locally with much lower costs, geographic arbitrage.

But even if you've been able to save for a reasonable retirement, getting old can be bad if you don't have family to help.  My niece and nephew would do some things to be helpful, but I wouldn't count on moving in with any of them.  I'm going to try to be extra nice to their significant others.  But I hope they'll at least check in on me from time to time wherever I end up.

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

There was a “rest home “ near me that they closed I thought to build something but the land has sat empty for decades. 

It could've been a covid graveyard.

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, Kirby said:

I've had friends with elderly parents who ended up in a long term facility on Medicaid.  Medicare provides only limited nursing care benefits.  I think the trick is to get into somewhere not so bad when you can still pay as places are more likely to keep you if you run out of money and go on Medicaid than if you're admitted on Medicaid (or so I've heard with no real support).

This is what I'm doing for my father.  He has a tiny private room in a private house.  I'm spending down $200,000 of his assets so he can have that privilege.  Medicaid will pick up the rest.  Even so my schizo drugged sisters think it's horrible.  Well, to be fair, I think it's horrible especially when his property was on a lake.  But that's the whole point.  He had a little bit of money and he has his house paid off. I don't have my house paid off and depending on any inheritance down the line we MAY be able to pay it off one day.  But it's has been thinking about the much larger issue.  What if I can't pay off my mortgage by the time I die?  What if I can't afford the mortgage payments?  What happens when I'm moved out of my employment?  I have no family -- none with money -- and therefore no blood that feels obligated to pick me up.

Fact is I eventually become homeless or get checked into a state run death locker.

[Allen ★]

50 minutes ago, Dottles said:

Family!  Yeah, I've got none of that but drug users left after my dad passes.  Well, I do have In-laws but we're not that close.

I’m kinda in the same boat. I have three nephews, they all turned out well, but I don’t see them taking me in end the end. My sister would but she is ten years my senior. 
I hope one of my nephews gets sick of city life and wants to retire to the country. I’ll let them take the big house and I’ll move back to my farmhouse on the road. That would be ideal. 

[Dottleshead ★]

7 minutes ago, Kirby said:

But even if you've been able to save for a reasonable retirement, getting old can be bad if you don't have family to help.  My niece and nephew would do some things to be helpful, but I wouldn't count on moving in with any of them.  I'm going to try to be extra nice to their significant others.  But I hope they'll at least check in on me from time to time wherever I end up.

Reads like we are in a similar boat.

[Dottleshead ★]

4 minutes ago, Allen said:

I’m kinda in the same boat. I have three nephews, they all turned out well, but I don’t see them taking me in end the end. My sister would but she is ten years my senior. 
I hope one of my nephews gets sick of city life and wants to retire to the country. I’ll let them take the big house and I’ll move back to my farmhouse on the road. That would be ideal. 

The good thing for you Allen is you have options. And you're in the country.

[Kirby]

Lots of people get by with a lot less.  You can get part time work as a camp host and stay at a campsite.  Or work part time at Loews or Home Depot to help supplement.  I think NY has some long term care insurance you can get where you pay a certain amount for so many years, then they cover the rest for you. Other states may have similar programs.  An older woman I knew had a very cute subsidized apartment in CT that I'd be very happy living in.  A small apartment but in a nice complex with park areas.  I don't know what program sponsored it, but there was an income limit to qualify.

My town has a lot of services for seniors including a bus to the community center where they have some activities and serve a nice lunch.  $2 suggested donation, but it's just a suggestion.  One of the local churches has a food bank, with special hours for senior citizens.

Growing old isn't easy, especially if you have serious medical conditions that limit your ability to take care of yourself.  But there are a lot of local community and state options as well, and you hope you're mentally well enough to explore those options when the time comes. 

[Dottleshead ★]

52 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

You've got us Kzoo!

This is not going to end well for me.  

[Allen ★]

1 minute ago, Dottles said:

The good thing for you Allen is you have options. And your in the country.

No, I got lucky. I inherited a big fucking paid for estate. Dying here is going to be the trick. 

[Further]

The real trick is to die happy and healthy. 

Engaging in risky and fun activities can increase your odds of this....

But you really don't want to end up disabled....

[Razors Edge ★]

14 minutes ago, Dottles said:

What if I can't pay off my mortgage by the time I die?  What if I can't afford the mortgage payments?  What happens when I'm moved out of my employment?  I have no family -- none with money -- and therefore no blood that feels obligated to pick me up.

Seems, if that was your TRUE top priority, you would be following @Dirtyhip's examples and downsizing, shedding mortgages, and living VERY much within your means.

[Dottleshead ★]

1 hour ago, ChrisL said:

We’re facing this with my MIL.  She has burned through most of her cash from the sale of her house.  She’s renting a room but it seems like the homeowner wants her out and she can’t afford rent on her own.  

Her kids are looking to put her in an Apt in a retirement community but without her kids help she’s SOL.  74 years old, no income really as she has no retirement fund.  She’ll end up with one of us at some point...

But she has you.  What happens if she doesn't have 'you'?

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, Razors Edge said:

Seems, if that was your TRUE top priority, you would be following @Dirtyhip's examples and downsizing, shedding mortgages, and living VERY much within your means.

At some point we're going to have to sacrifice and buy a motorhome or some damn thing.  Also thinking about moving in with @Kirby

[Dottleshead ★]

2 minutes ago, Further said:

The real trick is to die happy and healthy. 

Engaging in risky and fun activities can increase your odds of this....

But you really don't want to end up disabled....

Damn straight.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Dottles said:

At some point we're going to have to sacrifice and buy a motorhome or some damn thing.  Also thinking about moving in with @Kirby

But Allen is the one with all the land! 

[Allen ★]

Just now, Dottles said:

At some point we're going to have to sacrifice and buy a motorhome or some damn thing.  Also thinking about moving in with @Kirby

You can park it in the pasture. 

[Dottleshead ★]

4 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

But Allen is the one with all the land! 

He's got a shooting range AND a fishing hole.

[ChrisL]

3 minutes ago, Dottles said:

But she has you.  What happens if she doesn't have 'you'?

Well there are two other kids and although she’d rather live in CA she is more likely to end up with her oldest son in his basement.  If she has a major health issue requiring hospitalization I’m not sure how that will go...

We were able to keep my mom in her home through the end but it was tough. If she held on another year or two we may have had to leverage her home. She had a couple of pensions and was debt free which helped and several of my siblings and I put in considerable time & money to her care.

Sometimes when I tease my daughter she’ll reply, be nice to me or you’ll be changing your own diaper!  She does have a point...

[petitepedal ★]

I am on my own..no nieces or nephews..my sister is older with health issues..Trying to stay healthy and will stay here as long as I can...condo won't  be paid off when I retire..and only have about $100,000 in my retirement fund..that and Social Security...I cannot afford a 1 bedroom  apartment where I work..and that is independent living.

I'm screwed

[Dottleshead ★]

1 minute ago, ChrisL said:

Well there are two other kids and although she’d rather live in CA she is more likely to end up with her oldest son in his basement.  If she has a major health issue requiring hospitalization I’m not sure how that will go...

We were able to keep my mom in her home through the end but it was tough. If she held on another year or two we may have had to leverage her home. She had a couple of pensions and was debt free which helped and several of my siblings and I put in considerable time & money to her care.

Sometimes when I tease my daughter she’ll reply, be nice to me or you’ll be changing your own diaper!  She does have a point...

You're a good man.

[Dottleshead ★]

1 hour ago, Allen said:

We had to convalesce Pop in a nursing home several times after broken hips and strokes. Even the nice ones are miserable.  All are expensive.  
 

 

100% this.

[MickinMD ★]

1 hour ago, Dottles said:

If you own your home, then we all know where you go.  But what about all these aging folks that don't own their home? What happens if they're destitute?  Do they just wander off into the reeds and die?  What happens if they don't have any family?  What the hell happens if you don't have any kin left and you don't have enough money to go and live anywhere?  Asking for a friend.

That's a tough one!  Is there any kind of supplemental federal or state money for people who have incomes below a certain level?

I have an 82 year-old cousin who owns her own home but very bad knees.  She has a daughter and grandsons who do very little for her.  She's probably close to having to move into some kind of senior living - fortunately she has no debts and no mortgage. But I don't know how long she'd go before running out of money. Outside of bad knees, she's in good health and she doesn't have much in savings.  She's the one I mentioned some time ago: I learned she spent most of a year in great tooth pain because she didn't have the money to cover the procedure's cost.  I sent her the money. I couldn't afford, though to help much with assisted living costs - I may be doing that myself in another decade.

Pennsylvania does more for retirees in terms of healthcare than Maryland does - I have a bunch of retired cousins in their 60's to 80's in PA and if their income is below a certain amount, they get major help with insurance and prescriptions beyond what Medicare covers, though they still have to jump through a bunch of hoops to claim it.

Some people have spent enough time working in civilized nations or were originally citizens there and leave the USA to go there and get free retirement healthcare including assisted living and nursing home stuff.

There are some states or insurance companies that supply assisted living help for people.

In terms of needing money for an apartment, it can be awful.  I know of retirees who have to choose each month between paying apartment rent or paying for prescriptions after they hit the "donut hole" where their Medicare or Advantage coverage begins paying much less of the cost after a certain amount has been spent.

There's not a day that goes by when I don't figuratively pat my younger self on the back for deciding to take a pay cut to go into teaching, where the retirement pension and mostly-subsidized health insurance I didn't think a lot about when I made the switch have made my life so much more stress free now.

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, Longjohn said:

I think most old people go to Florida.

And there's the third world country mentioned above.

[Dottleshead ★]

18 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Seems, if that was your TRUE top priority, you would be following @Dirtyhip's examples and downsizing, shedding mortgages, and living VERY much within your means.

I'll have some 401K and I have an annuity that should be worth something.  And maybe social security food money.  And whatever equity I build up in our house in the meantime.  And whatever inheritance I may or may not receive.  Lot's of ands and ifs -- so i do have some hope.  Plus I'm thinking maybe 20 years from now all the shit I think may be important now won't be important.  People come and go in your life and so does your health.