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What Changed Or Is It Just Me?


Razors Edge
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Reflecting on some things I was taught as a kid, and wondering when up became down, and down became up?  I will say, I don't see it in everyone, but I see an odd acceptance/embrace by folks who seem to value "virtue" in their self, but joyfully embrace "vice" in others.

Honestly, looking at the list, I'd still put the virtues in the good column, and the vices in the bad column. 

 Virtue                      Vice 
Chastity                    Lust
Temperance           Gluttony
Charity                    Greed
Diligence                 Sloth
Patience                  Wrath
Kindness                  Envy
Humility                   Pride

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14 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Reflecting on some things I was taught as a kid, and wondering when up became down, and down became up?  I will say, I don't see it in everyone, but I see an odd acceptance/embrace by folks who seem to value "virtue" in their self, but joyfully embrace "vice" in others.

Honestly, looking at the list, I'd still put the virtues in the good column, and the vices in the bad column. 

 Virtue                      Vice 
Chastity                    Lust
Temperance           Gluttony
Charity                    Greed
Diligence                 Sloth
Patience                  Wrath
Kindness                  Envy
Humility                   Pride

One reason is that with the advent of the internet, seemingly everyone with a connection & a keyboard has what they think is the only valid opinion on freakin' everything. The anonymity of the internet allows people with obscure (whacko) opinions to spew their blather worldwide.

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The old Seven Deadly Sins! They came about because the Roman Catholic Church used to sell indulgences so that you could get out of Purgatory early. Some minor sins could get you into Purgatory for 10,000 years before you could go to Heaven. Evidently the Ten Commandments wasn't bringing in enough revenue thus the Seven Deadly Sins were formulated. 

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25 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Reflecting on some things I was taught as a kid, and wondering when up became down, and down became up?  I will say, I don't see it in everyone, but I see an odd acceptance/embrace by folks who seem to value "virtue" in their self, but joyfully embrace "vice" in others.

Honestly, looking at the list, I'd still put the virtues in the good column, and the vices in the bad column. 

 Virtue                      Vice 
Chastity                    Lust
Temperance           Gluttony
Charity                    Greed
Diligence                 Sloth
Patience                  Wrath
Kindness                  Envy
Humility                   Pride

What's changed?

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10 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

You lost me at “chastity”.

I’d make a good monk -apart from the whole “religion” thing. I mean,  “beer”, “bread” and “solitude”? Sign me up! Oh wait, there’s that whole “celibacy” thing...... never mind.

Yeah, that's the one I would struggle with the most, although the Wiki brief explanation is pretty agreeable in my eyes now (grown and married).  When I was a teen or 20-something? No way was I tied to the concept of chastity!

Chastity means "the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being“[7], which could according one's marital status either mean to have no sexual relationship or not having any sexual relation outside marriage. It also means fidelity to husband or wife during marriage. In Catholic morality, chastity is placed opposite the deadly sin of lust, and is classified as one of seven virtues. The moderation of sexual desires is required to be virtuous. Reason, will, and desire can harmoniously work together to do what is good.

In marriage, the spouses commit to a lifelong relationship that excludes sexual intimacy with other persons.

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4 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

The old Seven Deadly Sins! They came about because the Roman Catholic Church used to sell indulgences so that you could get out of Purgatory early. Some minor sins could get you into Purgatory for 10,000 years before you could go to Heaven. Evidently the Ten Commandments wasn't bringing in enough revenue thus the Seven Deadly Sins were formulated. 

Yeah, it was sort of an easy way  to catch all the troublesome vices, since most folks struggle or readily embrace one or more of the vices, and ignore or ridicule the virtues. 

The Church (and now churches) sure knew how to make a buck, and seemed to develop better and wider systems for getting "donations".  With that in mind, though, I am absolutely not a "religious" guy, but I have a hard time looking at that list (or the Beatitudes or the 10 Commandments) and rearranging or vehemently disagreeing with any of them.

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10 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Chastity means "the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being“[

What a load of crap. It's based on the whole "self denial" bullshit.

If you're not married or in a monogamous relationship and you go out and bang everything in sight as long as you're not lying to them or roofie-ing them, who does it hurt? Is it empty and shallow? Sure, but so what?

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16 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

What a load of crap. It's based on the whole "self denial" bullshit.

If you're not married or in a monogamous relationship and you go out and bang everything in sight as long as you're not lying to them or roofie-ing them, who does it hurt? Is it empty and shallow? Sure, but so what?

I think your challenge is you are using someone else's prism to view YOUR actions.  IOW, if you're using 1500's (or even 1950's) Roman Catholic version of chastity vs lust, but don't "agree with it, you will ALWAYS find issue with it.  But if you apply a more "rational" application of reason to chastity/lust - ie chastity = consensual sex, and lust = "unbridled sexual desire" including things like "fornication (including adultery), rape, bestiality and other sinful sexual acts. " - then maybe it makes sense? 

Essentially, one hopes people have a moral code. Where on one side is a "virtue" like respectful sexual practices (however YOU define them) and on the other side is the "vice" that shows the crude or dangerous side of things.  Sure, you can look at it from a "Christian" or "Catholic" perspective, but the concepts of good/bad or virtue/vice pre-dates those times.

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Just now, bikeman564™ said:

@F_in Ray Of Sunshine I found this on the internets

The Professor – Pride
Thurston Howell III - Greed
Ginger - Lust
Mary Ann - Envy (of Ginger's looks)
Mrs. Lovey Howell - Gluttony
The Skipper - Anger or wrath
Gilligan – Sloth
 

Thus demonstrating that people can create a pile of crap over almost anything.

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Just now, bikeman564™ said:

@F_in Ray Of Sunshine I found this on the internets

The Professor – Pride
Thurston Howell III - Greed
Ginger - Lust
Mary Ann - Envy (of Ginger's looks)
Mrs. Lovey Howell - Gluttony
The Skipper - Anger or wrath
Gilligan – Sloth
 

I gotta say, Gilligan seemed to be doing the bulk of the work on that island. Him and then the Professor.

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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

I gotta say, Gilligan seemed to be doing the bulk of the work on that island. Him and then the Professor.

Didn't Gilligan do a lot of the screwing up, and the reason they were marooned in the first place? IIRC they did a reenactment of the day of the storm. And Gilligan forgot to tie the anchor rope to the boat.

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Just now, bikeman564™ said:

Didn't Gilligan do a lot of the screwing up, and the reason they were marooned in the first place? IIRC they did a reenactment of the day of the storm. And Gilligan forgot to tie the anchor rope to the boat.

Sure, he screwed stuff up, but if no one else was doing jack shit except barking orders, how much can we really blame him?

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3 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

But, that we notice it may demonstrate the point after all.

Yeah, it's funny how my question was what changed to where we accept "bad" behavior (the vices), and what I get back is that the vices are wrong!  Maybe I shouldn't have wondered why folks embrace the "vices" in others, but rather why they embrace them in themselves as well!

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.....but to answer your original question, the answer is “nothing” and for proof positive, look no further than the historical shit I post every day.

People were lying, stealing and banging their neighbors’ wives in the 19th century same as today. (Though I can't say I’ve heard of anyone getting drunk and stealing a locomotive lately....)

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1 hour ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

You lost me at “chastity”.

I’d make a good monk -apart from the whole “religion” thing. I mean,  “beer”, “bread” and “solitude”? Sign me up! Oh wait, there’s that whole “celibacy” thing...... never mind.

Can we add in smoked meats between the beer and bread?  It would help with the meat coma nap solitude part that follows.

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10 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

.....but to answer your original question, the answer is “nothing” and for proof positive, look no further than the historical shit I post every day.

People were lying, stealing and banging their neighbors’ wives in the 19th century same as today. (Though I can't say I’ve heard of anyone getting drunk and stealing a locomotive lately....)

Some people.

fify.

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6 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Can we add in smoked meats between the beer and bread?  It would help with the meat coma nap solitude part that follows.

Pretty sure some of them are known for snausage making, too.

There’s an old joke about a novice monk who takes a vow of silence:

At the end of his first year, he gets called before the abbot who says “since you’ve been devout for an entire year, we’re going to let you say two words”

”Too cold”

Another year goes by, same thing. This time the answer is “Food sucks”

Another anniversary rolls around and he responds “robe’s itchy”

At the end of his fourth year, he is again before the abbot and his chosen two words are “I quit”

The abbot responds “Ah go on, then. All you did was bitch anyway”.

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14 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

.....but to answer your original question, the answer is “nothing” and for proof positive, look no further than the historical shit I post every day.

People were lying, stealing and banging their neighbors’ wives in the 19th century same as today. (Though I can't say I’ve heard of anyone getting drunk and stealing a locomotive lately....)

You think there were many folks back then who said to themselves, "I like that fellow!  He lied like I do! He stole like I do! He banged like I do!"????

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Just now, Razors Edge said:

You think there were many folks back then who said to themselves, "I like that fellow!  He lied like I do! He stole like I do! He banged like I do!"????

Absolutely. Humans gonna human.

Read the graffiti from Pompeii. Same shit.

You can take that as reassuring that things aren’t as bad as they seem or despair that we haven’t evolved beyond all that.

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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

You think there were many folks back then who said to themselves, "I like that fellow!  He lied like I do! He stole like I do! He banged like I do!"????

People like to be around like minded people.  The WWW and the internet have made this much easier than it was in the past.  Easy for a small group to make huge waves now, hence the acceptance part I think.   People, parties, companies are scared of the attacks and beat downs by peaceful protestors....  

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Just now, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

Absolutely. Humans gonna human.

Read the graffiti from Pompeii. Same shit.

You can take that as reassuring that things aren’t as bad as they seem or despair that we haven’t evolved beyond all that.

Keep in mind the original question.  Humans gonna human is not the same as humans gonna be fine with humans being humans. 

Like, Bob lies all the time. I don't like Bob because of that. vs  Bob lies all the time. I think Bobs a great guy. I might invest in his new idea.

Or, Mavis rips legs off frogs and watches them suffer. I don't her because of that.  vs Mavis rips legs of frogs and watches them suffer.  I like she has her "thing" and might invite her to dinner.

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Just now, Razors Edge said:

Bob lies all the time. I don't like Bob because of that. vs  Bob lies all the time. I think Bobs a great guy. I might invest in his new idea.

You think the Gilded Age robber barons worked in isolation or called each other out for their predations? Hardly. They cooperated where it served their own selfish self interests. 

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2 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

You think the Gilded Age robber barons worked in isolation or called each other out for their predations? Hardly. They cooperated where it served their own selfish self interests. 

As a percentage of the population, how large was the "robber barons" group?  I get the 1% or 2% or even 10% are bat sheot insane and/or pathological psycho/sociopaths, but I'm wondering about the relatively sane portion of folks that thought that 1/2/10% were "good" folks.

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Just now, Razors Edge said:

I'm wondering about the relatively sane portion of folks that thought that 1/2/10% were "good" folks.

“Patronage” was a real thing. “He may be a sonofabitch, but he’s our sonofabitch”.

Take  Roscoe Conkling for example. Did some really good stuff for Abolition and Reconstruction, but was a crooked bastard when it came to the New York Customs Office. Was known to have screwed around on Mrs. Conkling. But if you were to ask any of the folks that had jobs because of him, they’d say he was a great guy.

The phrases “The more things change, the more they stay the same” and “There’s nothing new under the sun” are not new and exist for a reason.

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2 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

“Patronage” was a real thing. “He may be a sonofabitch, but he’s our sonofabitch”.

Take  Roscoe Conkling for example. Did some really good stuff for Abolition and Reconstruction, but was a crooked bastard when it came to the New York Customs Office. Was known to have screwed around on Mrs. Conkling. But if you were to ask any of the folks that had jobs because of him, they’d say he was a great guy.

The phrases “The more things change, the more they stay the same” and “There’s nothing new under the sun” are not new and exist for a reason.

Ah, I get you. So there is no "good old days", and kids and effing Millenials today are just fine.  Definitely helps. Thanks!

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2 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Ah, I get you. So there is no "good old days"

Nope. Pick any period in history and dig into it. You’ll find the good and the bad.

4 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

kids and effing Millenials today are just fine.

.....like any other group, there are examples from on end of the spectrum to the other.

It’s almost like you can’t judge a person by anything other than their deeds.

(and it always amuses me to see “Millennials” get harshed on. Who created them? Their parents - the very people bitching about them....)

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3 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

Nope. Pick any period in history and dig into it. You’ll find the good and the bad.

.....like any other group, there are examples from on end of the spectrum to the other.

It’s almost like you can’t judge a person by anything other than their deeds.

(and it always amuses me to see “Millennials” get harshed on. Who created them? Their parents - the very people bitching about them....)

Can't say as I created mine. Two decades of living overseas has made a completely different person. 

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