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So is it play professional sports 'n not protest about anything else?


shootingstar
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Well now for the recent protests in NBA, NHL for some teams/certain days, because of support for BLM related stuff:

Should we expect them as employees, professional players just to stick to sports or not play/not public protest ie. kneel during anthem, etc.?

I appreciate why they are doing it.  Or maybe in their professional interactions on court and off court be "good" in behaviour, actively get involved in community programs that develop skills in youth, inequities in housing, etc. Some of the players do it...others, just like anyone else, just go along with flow and live their private lives, unless someone else leads the effort for social justice.

What I'm trying to say is public group protest is one thing which is..actually easy.  Harder is the individual builds into their individual effort to contribute to programs that address inequities in workplace, community programming, even neighbourhood development/relations.

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1 hour ago, shootingstar said:

Should we expect them as employees, professional players just to stick to sports or not play/not public protest ie. kneel during anthem, etc.?

I don’t mind if they kneel during the anthem or do whatever form of statement they wish in an non-intrusive manner before the game.  But it’s a business, and at some point the games need to happen, or the player who won’t play leave the teams, or the leagues end. I understand the Bucks decision to protest the one game, given their local ties to the events unfolding, and respect the NBA’s decision to cancel all games that night, but it can’t be indefinite shut-down.

I feel the NHL got shamed into a doing “something”, which ultimately comes across as lame, meaningless and disconnected to the events. The NHL can be pro-diversity and still play their games, which are, after all, quasi-literally in a bubble in Edmonton and Toronto. 

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Have no idea what you’re trying to say but here’s a few cents from me.

Players kneeling or not standing for the national anthem is disrespectful to our veterans and patriots. 
 

Players have a right to protest, as do all Americans.
 

There is a significant disparity in wealth in America between different racial backgrounds. Asians at the top of the heap. Whites not far behind. Hispanics are next with Blacks and Native Americans at the bottom. We need honest conversations to talk about this. Most of what the media offers and supports is not honest at all.
 I have 4 brothers and 10 African American siblings in law. I bet the poorest of my brothers has more wealth than the richest of my 10 in laws ( I don’t have access to the figures). I don’t think the answer is systemic racism. That’s a cop out. Jim Crow was systemic racism. My mother and father in law lived through it.   Education and culture have a lot to do with current disparities. So might legacy wealth, but I don’t think that explains the bulk of it. 

 That being said, everyone of these 16 adults Is doing Ok, nearly all of them working and above the poverty line. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I don’t mind if they kneel during the anthem or do whatever form of statement they wish in an non-intrusive manner before the game.  But it’s a business, and at some point the games need to happen, or the player who won’t play leave the teams, or the leagues end. I understand the Bucks decision to protest the one game, given their local ties to the events unfolding, and respect the NBA’s decision to cancel all games that night, but it can’t be indefinite shut-down.

I feel the NHL got shamed into a doing “something”, which ultimately comes across as lame, meaningless and disconnected to the events. The NHL can be pro-diversity and still play their games, which are, after all, quasi-literally in a bubble in Edmonton and Toronto. 

Do you think the fact that the NHL is mostly white players the  BLM protest is somewhat lost on them? Personally I think it just doesn’t resonate with them as a whole so play on eh.

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1 hour ago, BuffJim said:

Players kneeling or not standing for the national anthem is disrespectful to our veterans and patriots. 

Hmm, I don't think this is true at all, nobody 'owns' what an object stands for, and the military certainly doesn't own, grant, or dictate how one should feel about it.   Telling people what it is supposed to mean to them disenfranchises them more and comes off as kind of "It is MY flag, and you WILL respect it", which is a bit arrogant arrogant as fuck when you think about it.

The flag certainly stands for oppression for a large segment of the population, and reasonably so.  The needle hasn't much moved in regards to disparity in some social justice issues. 

America is where I was born, and I am certainly not about to go all jingoistic because I see a flag and am supposed to soil my underwear through the sheer force of patriotism.  Time to face the fact that we are a middling country at best based on every metric the world uses, we just have the biggest financial base is all.  If we were born in any other country, we would think that country is the shit and not be all "America, fuck yeah!!!".

Our flag is garishly busy, btw, but it does stand out.

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13 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I would never take a knee during the National Anthem

Ok, this whole issue should really never come up, as playing a national anything before a sporting event is dumb as fuck, especially now as it is such a hot issue.  Just not play it and problem solved. 

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1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

Ok, this whole issue should really never come up, as playing a national anything before a sporting event is dumb as fuck, especially now as it is such a hot issue.  Just not play it and problem solved. 

OK I hear you but it’s played for other events and you would never see me sit or kneel.  I also stop turn towards the flag and put my hand over my heart when the flag is raised, lowered or comes passing by.  

To be honest seeing the flag waving in a gentle breeze backlit by the sun gives me the chills every time.

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37 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Do you think the fact that the NHL is mostly white players the  BLM protest is somewhat lost on them? Personally I think it just doesn’t resonate with them as a whole so play on eh.

Maybe.  Also, hockey seems like the largest sport that is played predominantly by international players (except for soccer, which is for kids), so they don't care so much about American issues.  And you are right, are there currently more than a handful of black hockey players?

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3 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

OK I hear you but it’s played for other events and you would never see me sit or kneel.  I also stop turn towards the flag and put my hand over my heart when the flag is raised, lowered or comes passing by.  

To be honest seeing the flag waving in a gentle breeze backlit by the sun gives me the chills every time.

I think it is different for you, as you have served in the military, and there is quite a lot of effective brain-washing going on there.  All the military guys I have ever known exit basic all jacked to the gills with patriotism, and they didn't start that way.  I don't mean this to be derogatory, but you are forced to internalize it and fix associations that stay with you, and you may be forced to kill for some purpose that might not hold up if you examine it before the light unless you glove up with the XXXL patriotism condom before going into battle.  It is useful for soldiers is what I mean.

Anyway, the flag has real meaning for you, and you would be going against your ideals to alter your flag behavior.  It is to your credit that you don't have a narrow view about it and can see alternate views simultaneously.

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1 hour ago, BuffJim said:

There is a significant disparity in wealth in America between different racial backgrounds. Asians at the top of the heap. Whites not far behind. Hispanics are next with Blacks and Native Americans at the bottom. We need honest conversations to talk about this. Most of what the media offers and supports is not honest at all.
 I have 4 brothers and 10 African American siblings in law. I bet the poorest of my brothers has more wealth than the richest of my 10 in laws ( I don’t have access to the figures). I don’t think the answer is systemic racism. That’s a cop out. Jim Crow was systemic racism. My mother and father in law lived through it.   Education and culture have a lot to do with current disparities. So might legacy wealth, but I don’t think that explains the bulk of it. 

 That being said, everyone of these 16 adults Is doing Ok, nearly all of them working and above the poverty line. 
 

 

Ok for the Asians just show the federal overall statistics latest..that breaks it down by ethnicity and income. Am waiting.....

No, I don't believe they are at the top economically, because there's enough of them in lower end jobs but either recent immigrants (educated but in low level service jobs because their foreign degrees were not recognized by employers in North America, English skills need to be stronger) or they just couldn't land good paying jobs after university.  I personally know quite a lot in the latter group, as well as former.  The media DOES play up the few high achieving Asians in work ethic, etc. as the "model" minority.

Well, the reality is:  Look at the power structure at the major national companies, politics and most senior levels in govn't and who actually occupies those roles in: decision-making, public profile, etc.  The national figure % is still probably low.

I think we also have to look at some generational differences amongst: lst generation immigrant, 2nd generation their children, then 3rd, etc.  Like any other situation.....is to see if the hard work ethic, education emphasis translates well into 3rd and 4th generations. 

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2 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I think it is different for you, as you have served in the military, and there is quite a lot of effective brain-washing going on there.  All the military guys I have ever known exit basic all jacked to the gills with patriotism, and they didn't start that way.  I don't mean this to be derogatory, but you are forced to internalize it and fix associations that stay with you, and you may be forced to kill for some purpose that might not hold up if you examine it before the light unless you glove up with the XXXL patriotism condom before going into battle.  It is useful for soldiers is what I mean.

Anyway, the flag has real meaning for you, and you would be going against your ideals to alter your flag behavior.  It is to your credit that you don't have a narrow view about it and can see alternate views simultaneously.

It’s a lot more complex than sheer patriotism & brainwashing. Many of us served as a means to an end or to achieve a goal. We went in fully knowing what could be asked of us and it was more about mission accomplishment than god & country. 

Post 9-11 vets may see it differently though.  I wanted back in the fight in a bad way for payback but was too old to re enlist.

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I don’t mind if they kneel during the anthem or do whatever form of statement they wish in an non-intrusive manner before the game.  But it’s a business, and at some point the games need to happen, or the player who won’t play leave the teams, or the leagues end. I understand the Bucks decision to protest the one game, given their local ties to the events unfolding, and respect the NBA’s decision to cancel all games that night, but it can’t be indefinite shut-down.

I feel the NHL got shamed into a doing “something”, which ultimately comes across as lame, meaningless and disconnected to the events. The NHL can be pro-diversity and still play their games, which are, after all, quasi-literally in a bubble in Edmonton and Toronto. 

For sports that don't have international teams or it's not an international match, why is any national anthem even played before  game starts?  Seems most appropriate for international sports event/game.

Is it like some sort of battle hym of old thinking?

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1 minute ago, shootingstar said:

The media DOES play up the few high achieving Asians in work ethic, etc. as the "model" minority.

Every Asian family I know has doctors, dentists, and accountants in it.  In my experience, Asians are the highest paid and credentialed of the minorities, and generally ahead the white folks that way.  You really can't convince me otherwise, I have seen it countless times and never seen it not be that way.

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14 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Every Asian family I know has doctors, dentists, and accountants in it.  In my experience, Asians are the highest paid and credentialed of the minorities, and generally ahead the white folks that way.  You really can't convince me otherwise, I have seen it countless times and never seen it not be that way.

As I said earlier...in a family does that translate into next younger generations, that level of achievement?  I appreciate your personal perspective. From what I see personally in families that I know, it's usually 1-2 professionals /well paid in 1 extended family and the rest are not. That's ok. But it doesn't translate into dominating the political power structure in CAnada or U.S. Nor  dominating in national firms in higher management tier structure.

 

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3 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Every Asian family I know has doctors, dentists, and accountants in it.  In my experience, Asians are the highest paid and credentialed of the minorities, and generally ahead the white folks that way.  You really can't convince me otherwise, I have seen it countless times and never seen it not be that way.

I’m getting the idea Canada has an influx of recent Chinese immigrants. I’d make the analogy of our Vietnamese refugees. Many of the immigrants didn’t become high achievers.  They took menial jobs while their kids became the high achievers.  

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15 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I’m getting the idea Canada has an influx of recent Chinese immigrants. I’d make the analogy of our Vietnamese refugees. Many of the immigrants didn’t become high achievers.  They took menial jobs while their kids became the high achievers.  

Because the kids saw their parents sacrifice hugely, by working multiple low end jobs to benefit their children.  There's nothing like guilt...to 'cause one to carry the torch even..higher. :blink:  It's not a terrible reason, it's an incredibly powerful motivator. And dismaying when the highest power structure predominantly is still.....white in North America.  It's changed only a bit in the last 30 years.  Not much.

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20 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

Because the kids saw their parents sacrifice hugely, by working multiple low end jobs to benefit their children.  There's nothing like guilt...to 'cause one to carry the torch even..higher. :blink:  It's not a terrible reason, it's an incredibly powerful motivator. And dismaying when the highest power structure predominantly is still.....white in North America.  It's changed only a bit in the last 30 years.  Not much.

I understand your view point but it hasn’t impacted me as a child of immigrants and a person of color.  I have climbed to the higher echelons in corporate America and currently hold an executive position within my company.  Maybe it would be different if I was female.

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19 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I understand your view point but it hasn’t impacted me as a child of immigrants and a person of color.  I have climbed to the higher echelons in corporate America and currently hold an executive position within my company.  Maybe it would be different if I was female.

honest like my niece, you can pass for white...easily. I bet a lot of folks have said stuff and weren't aware of your mixed background.

Anyway, it helps to have communication skills that are highly flexible depending which social group one has to navigate in working world and at personal level.  Also ability to culturally be flexible because it's an integral part of the person's personality/background:  ie. they don't fake it. They live it. It's real because the person has lived in different worlds/cross cultures for many years.

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6 hours ago, Randomguy said:

I think it is different for you, as you have served in the military, and there is quite a lot of effective brain-washing going on there.  All the military guys I have ever known exit basic all jacked to the gills with patriotism, and they didn't start that way.  I don't mean this to be derogatory, but you are forced to internalize it and fix associations that stay with you, and you may be forced to kill for some purpose that might not hold up if you examine it before the light unless you glove up with the XXXL patriotism condom before going into battle.  It is useful for soldiers is what I mean.

Anyway, the flag has real meaning for you, and you would be going against your ideals to alter your flag behavior.  It is to your credit that you don't have a narrow view about it and can see alternate views simultaneously.

Broad brushing is often incorrect.  Peoples definition of patriotism varies wildly from abject loyalty to a piece of cloth, to a desire to see the country do well, to an unconscious form of tribalism.  It's a variable that is affected by situation.

IMO athletes protesting is a good thing.  We should be made uncomfortable by inconvenient situations.  At the time I didn't realize it but this was one of the important images in sports and it happened over 50 years ago.  How it was important was reflected in the white population's reaction to it.  If you are pissed off because you are missing games then perhaps it's time to wonder about the reasons.

Black Power salute photo: Tommie Smith and John Carlos raised their fists  during the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico City - The Washington Post

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I'm all for people protesting if they feel it's needed.  But NOT on the job.

It's a financial adventure for many people to attend major league-level sports and they do so to get away from the stress and tensions in life.  Bringing them into sports is unconscionable.

If one of the protesting athletes hired a clown for a birthday party and the clown began by promoting a cause - especially one the those hiring him oppose, they'd have a good case for not paying him and throwing him out.

The U.S Government has been forcing state and local governments and police departments to change behaviors involving minorities yet the U.S. Flag is not supported by kneeling. The players say others don't get it: they're not disrespecting the flag. YES, they ARE! They're not showing disrespect to anything except during the National Anthem!

Why aren't they kneeling in front of Police Stations, County Councils, Mayors' Offices, etc. in the locations where the problems are occurring?  All all of them can't be bothered to do that, which says a lot about how much they really care.

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2 minutes ago, roadsue said:

Strike, not boycott.

Good point.  I would go further to say it turned into a work stoppage to gain the attention of those interested in the product.  A pure strike would have been in opposition to those in authority.  In this case the owners generally supported the work stoppage, for different reasons and maybe with some arm twisting, but general support.

 

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What is the image Americans are most proud of?  When the going gets tough, the tough get going.  When there's a problem, dive right in and fix it.

The most American thing an American can do is do something about an injustice.  If that's kneeling for an anthem, putting protesting for change for the poor and oppressed ahead of your job, getting together with 20,000 friends to meet downtown to say enough is enough.  That's what we've always said separates us from lesser societies, not just our FREEDOM to speak against injustice, but our WILLINGNESS to speak against injustice.

You can protest, but not "on the job"?  Since when is the job the highest priority?  What happened to God - country - family - me?  Athletes and entertainers?  They have a bigger stage, a better opportunity to be heard, which come with a greater responsibility.

About the most UN American thing we can do is ignore someone else's speech because we don't like how they choose to speak.  Wrapping ourselves in the flag so tightly that it covers our ears and eyes isn't patriotism.

 

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15 hours ago, shootingstar said:

honest like my niece, you can pass for white...easily. I bet a lot of folks have said stuff and weren't aware of your mixed background.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean here? 

Educating myself, becoming an expert in a particular field by working from the ground up and being an excellent communicator & leader is less of a factor because I am perceived as white?  In my career every position I have held was based on face to face interactions with my leadership who deemed me a good fit for a position or promotion.  

You don’t rise to executive leadership by phone calls & emails and I have never shied away from my heritage nor used it as a crux.  If you spent just 1 second looking at me you would never confuse me for a white person.

 

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1 hour ago, MickinMD said:

I'm all for people protesting if they feel it's needed.  But NOT on the job.

It's a financial adventure for many people to attend major league-level sports and they do so to get away from the stress and tensions in life.  Bringing them into sports is unconscionable.

If one of the protesting athletes hired a clown for a birthday party and the clown began by promoting a cause - especially one the those hiring him oppose, they'd have a good case for not paying him and throwing him out.

The U.S Government has been forcing state and local governments and police departments to change behaviors involving minorities yet the U.S. Flag is not supported by kneeling. The players say others don't get it: they're not disrespecting the flag. YES, they ARE! They're not showing disrespect to anything except during the National Anthem!

Why aren't they kneeling in front of Police Stations, County Councils, Mayors' Offices, etc. in the locations where the problems are occurring?  All all of them can't be bothered to do that, which says a lot about how much they really care.

If you are more upset about missing the game than you are about the situation being protested then you don't get it.

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1 minute ago, Square Wheels said:

Why so?  What if what is being protested is of no interest to me?  I'm not talking about why pro sports are paused for these few days, but in general.

No one, no one I know of, is that far outside of society.  You manage people.  Do you manage people of color?  Do you care about the lives of the people you manage?  Do you have a neighbor that is a person of color.  Would you sympathize with them when they have to worry about the life of their son when he simply makes a run to the grocery store.

You are a caring person - you proven that over and over.  If you don't care about this then you haven't taken the time to try to understand.

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42 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

You manage people.  Do you manage people of color?

Many / most of the staff are people of color.

42 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Do you care about the lives of the people you manage?

Immensely.

43 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

 Do you have a neighbor that is a person of color. 

 
 

My next door neighbor is a black minister.  Super cool person.  We love him, his white wife, and their kids.

45 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Would you sympathize with them when they have to worry about the life of their son when he simply makes a run to the grocery store.

 
 

Sadly, yes.  Sadly because it's a reality, not sadly because I'm heartless.

45 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

If you don't care about this then you haven't taken the time to try to understand.

This is likely true.  I do care about other people's suffering.  I cannot be bothered to ever watch, read, or listen to the news.  It made me more depressed than my normal baseline.  Reported news is rarely good, I guess as humans we don't want to hear about the good things happening in the world. 

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2 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

I do care about other people's suffering.  I cannot be bothered to ever watch, read, or listen to the news.  It made me more depressed than my normal baseline.  Reported news is rarely good

This is also why bookface sucks, you get sucked in and care and pretty soon you are shouting in all caps all the time like my sister in law does.   

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8 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

This is also why bookface sucks, you get sucked in and care and pretty soon you are shouting in all caps all the time like my sister in law does.   

Nope, for me FB is only for funny pics.  I just block annoying people.  If it went away altogether, my life would not be affected at all.

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1 hour ago, Square Wheels said:

Why so?  What if what is being protested is of no interest to me?  I'm not talking about why pro sports are paused for these few days, but in general.

This.

Perhaps it's the crux of the protests.  You are a nice white man living in a nice house with a nice family and driving a nice BMW.  It is not unreasonable to say that you have as much in common with the protesters as you do with microbial life on Mars.

And yet you, I and everyone are inextricably linked to the problem and the protesters by the nature of our country.  It cannot be ignored because it's uncomfortable.

We have to be part of the solution.  We have to ensure that police forces have the training and the support to do their jobs without simpy shooting their way out of problems.  For example, why do police go to domestic disturbances when it's been shown that better results happen when the first responder is someone from social services and the police stay nearby just in case but remain out of the original confrontation.

Perhaps it's time to find out why we don't hire highly educated police (other than wage reasons)  Is it a good idea to simply assume that ex military personnel will make good police?

These are management and voter issues.

 

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Clearly the athletes have had a much more effective protest than the looters, or even the much more common peaceful protests that languish in solitary lack of news coverage..  Suddenly there are people waking up and saying "wtf" there's some sort of problem here?

Good on em.  Something upsets suburbia after all.

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6 hours ago, ChrisL said:

I’m not entirely sure what you mean here? 

Educating myself, becoming an expert in a particular field by working from the ground up and being an excellent communicator & leader is less of a factor because I am perceived as white?  In my career every position I have held was based on face to face interactions with my leadership who deemed me a good fit for a position or promotion.  

You don’t rise to executive leadership by phone calls & emails and I have never shied away from my heritage nor used it as a crux.  If you spent just 1 second looking at me you would never confuse me for a white person.

 

I could say the same about myself, Chris...sticking my nose in books, and getting 2 university degrees and then being fortunate enough to at least land jobs for what I spent money studying at university.

But I'm not going to kid myself I was always comfortable with certain people I met in the workplace.  I can't shy away from what I am....as I said unless I had surgery to remove every physical characteristic of myself as of 100% Asian.  It's not about using as a crux,....it is a bit tiring, constantly trying and competing / being as good as one can become.

At this time, I'm trying to avoid someone dumping her work on me..only because she's been stalling and refusing to interact with our online system because she's scared of being held accountable...  My god, some people have no clue what it feels like to be an obvious marker of high expectations.  I could never forget the time, I filled a job and a competing guy with same degree who didn't get the job, asked me:  "How come you got the job?"

I looked at him and said, "well this job is for a fire protection engineering library"....and that's where I came from with a private fire protection engineering firm.  Yes, he was white.  But we both had the same educational qualifications.

Now, as soon stuff like this happens, unless I am a complete idiot, I have to show/ execute stuff that demonstrates I am an equally qualified candidate.  Not less.

 

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14 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

Possibly for some.  If I wake tomorrow to find out the TdF and hockey are canceled for 2020 and 2021, I doubt I would care much at all - even if it were solely related to a protest.

The sad thing, the protests by the professional players...might be abit lost on many fans...because professional sports...is now, don't get mad at me:  a form of entertainment : we just watch,  analyze their prowess, etc. That's all.  Their jobs don't affect our lives intrinsically. Some athletes for sure, may inspire us. And many people can use positive inspiration.

It's like if BLM protest was done by some Hollywood actors/actresses for not performing. Well...even better they go out into a community and be involved for a few years part-time.

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@BuffJim please read this link. Kneeling was purposely chosen to NOT be disrespectful but still make a statement. 
@Square Wheels  Do you you ever get stopped by LEO just because you are driving a BMW? One of my friends drove a well kept, but still 10 year old BMW. He knew better than to blatantly break the rules of the road, yet he was constantly stopped by LEO with comments like “that’s an awful nice car for you to be driving (with an unspoken ‘for a Black man)”. He observed all protocol that parents share with their black sons during “the talk”. Even so, guns were frequently drawn before he even rolled down the window. 
He lived in a modest neighborhood while here. Before they lived here, they lived on the edge of a wealthy neighborhood. The shortest route home was through that neighborhood. He quickly learned it was more safe for him to drive around the outside streets and enter the neighborhood through the back way because LEO kept getting calls about “suspicious activity”. This is what is being protested even more than any wealth disparity. 

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35 minutes ago, groupw said:

@BuffJim please read this link. Kneeling was purposely chosen to NOT be disrespectful but still make a statement. 
@Square Wheels  Do you you ever get stopped by LEO just because you are driving a BMW? One of my friends drove a well kept, but still 10 year old BMW. He knew better than to blatantly break the rules of the road, yet he was constantly stopped by LEO with comments like “that’s an awful nice car for you to be driving (with an unspoken ‘for a Black man)”. He observed all protocol that parents share with their black sons during “the talk”. Even so, guns were frequently drawn before he even rolled down the window. 
He lived in a modest neighborhood while here. Before they lived here, they lived on the edge of a wealthy neighborhood. The shortest route home was through that neighborhood. He quickly learned it was more safe for him to drive around the outside streets and enter the neighborhood through the back way because LEO kept getting calls about “suspicious activity”. This is what is being protested even more than any wealth disparity. 

Clearly I am the benefactor of white privilege.  Whether I sought it out or not, it's a benefit afforded to me by chance.

I would never claim the world is a fair or just place.

My points in the past couple of days have been that the protesters, rioters, looters... they are not doing anything to get me to open my eyes and want to help them out.  I'm a rich white guy, what are the odds I'm going to get involved in a protest that is likely to turn into a riot?  Zero - that's not the life I choose.

If 5 black men came to my house (pre-COVID) and said they'd like to come in and discuss how hard it is to be black and live in my neighborhood, I'd open my home to them - be warned, I'll feed them vegan food and there is no alcohol here.

I am not a violent person, more of a Buddhist if anything, so the eye for an eye, or blatant violence for the sake of violence, maybe with the intent of scaring white folks, just isn't working for me.

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34 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

Clearly I am the benefactor of white privilege.  Whether I sought it out or not, it's a benefit afforded to me by chance.

I would never claim the world is a fair or just place.

My points in the past couple of days have been that the protesters, rioters, looters... they are not doing anything to get me to open my eyes and want to help them out.  I'm a rich white guy, what are the odds I'm going to get involved in a protest that is likely to turn into a riot?  Zero - that's not the life I choose.

If 5 black men came to my house (pre-COVID) and said they'd like to come in and discuss how hard it is to be black and live in my neighborhood, I'd open my home to them - be warned, I'll feed them vegan food and there is no alcohol here.

I am not a violent person, more of a Buddhist if anything, so the eye for an eye, or blatant violence for the sake of violence, maybe with the intent of scaring white folks, just isn't working for me.

IMO part of the problem is that the news is reporting the violence to a point that it's assumed that protests are all violent.  They aren't by a long shot.  There are peaceful protests going on every day.  I believe that a very large protest ran successfully in Washington DC yesterday with out any violence that I've read about so far.

There is violence that is connected to but not associated with some of the protests, especially in certain locations that have had violent protests long before BLM.  Portland was famous for white protesters breaking store fronts and setting fires years ago during one or more of the economic conferences (G20, G8, something like that).  As an aside they are also famous for angry bicyclists.  There is violence that comes into the protest areas from outside, witness the latest murder, that has no business being there.  

Rioters and looters should not be considered to be parts of the protests.  They are criminals and should be treated that way.  A large number of the protesters should not be considered to be parts of the riots/looting.  They are there to protest and often can be found begging the looters to stop.  They understand that the rioting/looting takes away from the purpose of the protest.  This is where the outside agitators live and breath, creating violence and violent response.  It is their intent to spoil the protest.  For some of them it's just a chance to grab stuff.  Some of the protesters also succumb to just grabbing stuff too.  

Protests work best when they are held in the daytime......especially if it causes some a bit of inconvenience getting to work.  Protests at night are a recipe for disaster as the night allows trouble to hide

Just my opinion.  I'm white working class who happens to have an extended multi race family, Caucasian, Chinese and African American, some successful, some with prison records.  I get a lot of different viewpoints.

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It's important to understand we take for granted how much our daily world, is structurally framed for us to see it in a certain way.

I walked into a bookstore today.  An independent, where their titles are far more wide-ranging than chain bookstores.  I went browsing and realized 80% of the bookstores in science, history, culture, poetry, literature, was framed from a Eurocentric perspective. And partially because the English language itself is ...Eurocentric.  The study of scientific knowledge, etc. even academic publishing world-wide...is Eurocentric.  To be a published researcher to have a profile one now should master the English language, as one of your languages.  It is the language of global power now...in business, science, teaching and for mass worldwide cultural appeal.

It was only in bookstore sections on history, culture, religion and current events...I found titles by authors who were:  non-white or non-European background.  

And I found a book written by a Chinese-Canadian female engineer -- she gives stories sexism, occasional racism in the engineering sector in Alberta.  1970's- early 1990's.  I told dearie about this and he agreed some of the crap going on in the oil firms.

 

 

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

Rioters and looters should not be considered to be parts of the protests.  They are criminals and should be treated that way.  A large number of the protesters should not be considered to be parts of the riots/looting.  They are there to protest and often can be found begging the looters to stop.  They understand that the rioting/looting takes away from the purpose of the protest.  This is where the outside agitators live and breath, creating violence and violent response.  It is their intent to spoil the protest.  For some of them it's just a chance to grab stuff.  Some of the protesters also succumb to just grabbing stuff too.  

Protests work best when they are held in the daytime......especially if it causes some a bit of inconvenience getting to work.  Protests at night are a recipe for disaster as the night allows trouble to hide

Just my opinion.  I'm white working class who happens to have an extended multi race family, Caucasian, Chinese and African American, some successful, some with prison records.  I get a lot of different viewpoints.

A Causcasian close friend from teenage years, who I am reuniting now after we lost touch for 20 yrs. asked me if experienced any racist incidents.  She is the lst white close friend who has asked that question.  So I highlighted some stuff.  lst time I told her...I'm 61 and she is 60.  

Can this forum even believe me, I haven't even told my closest white female friends (friends with them for past 3 decades),  of some of the racist incidents?  I think subsconsciously I was afraid of being distanced from them, because such experiences would be alien to them.  Isn't that stupid that I would think that?  

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3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

IMO part of the problem is that the news is reporting the violence to a point that it's assumed that protests are all violent.  They aren't by a long shot.  There are peaceful protests going on every day.  I believe that a very large protest ran successfully in Washington DC yesterday with out any violence that I've read about so far.

There is violence that is connected to but not associated with some of the protests, especially in certain locations that have had violent protests long before BLM.  Portland was famous for white protesters breaking store fronts and setting fires years ago during one or more of the economic conferences (G20, G8, something like that).  As an aside they are also famous for angry bicyclists.  There is violence that comes into the protest areas from outside, witness the latest murder, that has no business being there.  

Rioters and looters should not be considered to be parts of the protests.  They are criminals and should be treated that way.  A large number of the protesters should not be considered to be parts of the riots/looting.  They are there to protest and often can be found begging the looters to stop.  They understand that the rioting/looting takes away from the purpose of the protest.  This is where the outside agitators live and breath, creating violence and violent response.  It is their intent to spoil the protest.  For some of them it's just a chance to grab stuff.  Some of the protesters also succumb to just grabbing stuff too.  

Protests work best when they are held in the daytime......especially if it causes some a bit of inconvenience getting to work.  Protests at night are a recipe for disaster as the night allows trouble to hide

Just my opinion.  I'm white working class who happens to have an extended multi race family, Caucasian, Chinese and African American, some successful, some with prison records.  I get a lot of different viewpoints.

I don’t advocate or support violence for the change to happen. The violence and looting are performed by criminals and opportunists. There is legitimate, non-violent protest at the core, but that doesn’t make the news. 
Until the privileged become angry and demand change, it won’t happen. Those in power have the upper hand. They won’t change until they feel not changing will cost them wealth and power. I’m not wealthy, but I am privileged because I am white. I could drive through my friend’s old neighborhood in my old Dodge Miranda (worse than it sounds) and they might turn up their nose, but it would not be considered suspicious activity. I am fortunate to have the ear of some local important people. I don’t expect them to change overnight, but I can plant seeds of food for thought. We are all responsible for each other. We need to be informed and upset when people are wronged and do what is in our power to make it right. 

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On 8/27/2020 at 10:33 PM, BuffJim said:

I don’t think the answer is systemic racism. That’s a cop out. Jim Crow was systemic racism. My mother and father in law lived through it.   Education and culture have a lot to do with current disparities.

I think differences in opportunities IS systematic racism, put into play.  Different quality of public education, different economic needs of a family, different expectations. This isn’t just a coincidence:

“At $171,000, the net worth of a typical white family is nearly ten times greater than that of a Black family ($17,150) in 2016. “

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7 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

IMO part of the problem is that the news is reporting the violence to a point that it's assumed that protests are all violent.  They aren't by a long shot.  There are peaceful protests going on every day.  I believe that a very large protest ran successfully in Washington DC yesterday with out any violence that I've read about so far.

There is violence that is connected to but not associated with some of the protests, especially in certain locations that have had violent protests long before BLM.  Portland was famous for white protesters breaking store fronts and setting fires years ago during one or more of the economic conferences (G20, G8, something like that).  As an aside they are also famous for angry bicyclists.  There is violence that comes into the protest areas from outside, witness the latest murder, that has no business being there.  

Rioters and looters should not be considered to be parts of the protests.  They are criminals and should be treated that way.  A large number of the protesters should not be considered to be parts of the riots/looting.  They are there to protest and often can be found begging the looters to stop.  They understand that the rioting/looting takes away from the purpose of the protest.  This is where the outside agitators live and breath, creating violence and violent response.  It is their intent to spoil the protest.  For some of them it's just a chance to grab stuff.  Some of the protesters also succumb to just grabbing stuff too.  

Protests work best when they are held in the daytime......especially if it causes some a bit of inconvenience getting to work.  Protests at night are a recipe for disaster as the night allows trouble to hide

Just my opinion.  I'm white working class who happens to have an extended multi race family, Caucasian, Chinese and African American, some successful, some with prison records.  I get a lot of different viewpoints.

Valid point and when LE cracks down on rioters & looters it’s portrayed by the media that they are cracking down on protesters...

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"I mean, for me as a female athlete, the one thing that I've come to realize is we're judged on everything except our sport,"

"We've been judged because we're Black, gay, because we're women. Nobody talks about us playing. So you fast-forward, you know, 10, 20 years of this, and we've developed an identity, and we're being authentic to it. And so for us, when people say stick to sports, it's kind of like, 'Yeah, 20 years ago we tried, and you wouldn't let us, and now you're saying that?' So it makes no sense to me,"

The above quote from Sue Bird, WNBA player and vice president of the players association when asked what she thought about comments that players should shut up and just play.

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