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I wouldn’t want one of these


F_in Ray Of Sunshine

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2 hours ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

You'd be surprised. The 650bx40's on my Slate aren't that much slower than the 700x28's on my Roubaix.

Meh.  Empirically I am sure they are.  Probably by 5-10% (maybe that's "not that much"?).  Don't you have stats?!?!?!? You could tell us definitively.

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3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Looks like a few miles from Switzerland and France, but in Germany.

You know the spot?

 

Open is a manufacturer of performance mountain bicycle frames based in Basel. Founded by Andy Kessler and Gerard Vroomen in 2012, the company debuted with a single model, the O-1.0. It was claimed to be the lightest 29-inch production hardtail on the market. Wikipedia
Founded: 2012
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I don't think there are all that many gravel roads out there in the world, and gravel bikes are almost as overblown as fatbikes.   I like the versatility of being able to run different tire sizes, but to be honest, it would be a hell of a lot more fun to run big tires on regular race bike for the uncommon instance of being around gravel roads every now and then.  If you live in the approximately 4 places in the world with extensive gravel road networks, then yay, it makes sense.  Otherwise, an endurance bike is fine.

 

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17 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

You know the spot?

 

Open is a manufacturer of performance mountain bicycle frames based in Basel. Founded by Andy Kessler and Gerard Vroomen in 2012, the company debuted with a single model, the O-1.0. It was claimed to be the lightest 29-inch production hardtail on the market. Wikipedia
Founded: 2012

I just read the signpost!

4km from Malsburg is still in Germany!

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12 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I don't think there are all that many gravel roads out there in the world, and gravel bikes are almost as overblown as fatbikes.   I like the versatility of being able to run different tire sizes, but to be honest, it would be a hell of a lot more fun to run big tires on regular race bike for the uncommon instance of being around gravel roads every now and then.  If you live in the approximately 4 places in the world with extensive gravel road networks, then yay, it makes sense.  Otherwise, an endurance bike is fine.

 

Sound like you don't get out much? :D  I'd guess you could have a blast in upstate NY on backroads.  I spent part of this weekend on some of the "over 300 miles of gravel road dating back to the early 1700s, Loudoun County Virginia boasts the largest and oldest intact network of gravel roads in the United States."

What size tires do you run on your current bike? What size tire can it accommodate?

Luckily, there is an opportunity for road bikes (of all ilks) to be built with wider wheels & tires in mind mainly due to disc brakes, but for the most part, that's still not a reality. Cross bikes were generally the closest to that goal - lively enough to ride fast on roads, but also able to handle meatier tire options. "Gravel" is just a name/categorization that makes it easier to say "bike with fatter tires and built to ride over a broader mix of road & trails."

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6 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

Congratulations, you have earned the Pedant Of The Day Award.

Does it come with a bag of Brandon's finest coffee? 

I do always find it sad when folks are not curious about the world around them :(  I get it is the "new normal", but it remains tragically awful and not a positive trend.

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20 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Sound like you don't get out much? :D  I'd guess you could have a blast in upstate NY on backroads.  I spent part of this weekend on some of the "over 300 miles of gravel road dating back to the early 1700s, Loudoun County Virginia boasts the largest and oldest intact network of gravel roads in the United States."

What size tires do you run on your current bike? What size tire can it accommodate?

Luckily, there is an opportunity for road bikes (of all ilks) to be built with wider wheels & tires in mind mainly due to disc brakes, but for the most part, that's still not a reality. Cross bikes were generally the closest to that goal - lively enough to ride fast on roads, but also able to handle meatier tire options. "Gravel" is just a name/categorization that makes it easier to say "bike with fatter tires and built to ride over a broader mix of road & trails."

I run 28's, but I can run 32's (supposedly). 

Ok, here is the rub...if I am out in the backwoods, I don't want to ride gravel, I want to ride trails on a full-suspension mountain bike.  There you have it, doubletrack was and always will be the shit part of any ride where there is singletrack nearby and would only be ridden as a connector.  Boring as fuck, get to the good stuff and all that. 

If, and only if, I lived near a really hyper-intense gravel trail network, would I consider a gravel bike, and I would really have to rationalize why I just wouldn't want to ride a full-suspension mountain bike instead.  If gravel is a connector on a road ride, I would want the road bike.  If gravel is a connector on a mountain bike ride, I want the mountain bike.  If the gravel road has more than a moderate amount of descending, I want the mountain bike.  A gravel bike seems too big a compromise in any direction to be a pragmatic choice when on a ride, I would rather optimize for the juicy bits rather than compromise on literally everything.  If it was for transport (other than for fun) for commuting or somesuch, I can see it as a valid choice, but really only for a small minority of such riders.  It think it kind of a wasted effort to develop a gravel groupset, throw lots of engineering and production support for a niche category that is on a temporary upswing and ready in a couple of years to go on the downswing.

Of course, if anyone wants to buy me one or if I had unlimited budgets and bike storage space, then I would love to have one of every type of bike.

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1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

I run 28's, but I can run 32's (supposedly). 

Ok, here is the rub...if I am out in the backwoods, I don't want to ride gravel, I want to ride trails on a full-suspension mountain bike.  There you have it, doubletrack was and always will be the shit part of any ride where there is singletrack nearby and would only be ridden as a connector.  Boring as fuck, get to the good stuff and all that. 

If, and only if, I lived near a really hyper-intense gravel trail network, would I consider a gravel bike, and I would really have to rationalize why I just wouldn't want to ride a full-suspension mountain bike instead.  If gravel is a connector on a road ride, I would want the road bike.  If gravel is a connector on a mountain bike ride, I want the mountain bike.  If the gravel road has more than a moderate amount of descending, I want the mountain bike.  A gravel bike seems too big a compromise in any direction to be a pragmatic choice when on a ride, I would rather optimize for the juicy bits rather than compromise on literally everything.  If it was for transport (other than for fun) for commuting or somesuch, I can see it as a valid choice, but only for a small minority of riders.

Of course, if anyone wants to buy me one or if I had unlimited budgets and bike storage space, then I would love to have one of every type of bike.

You realize you can put 23/25/28s road slicks on a gravel bike, correct?  Then put on maybe 50s on for a different ride? Or settle in the middle with a "covers almost anything" 35s or 38s?

I get a mountain bike for mountain biking, but maybe you can tell me which one of those folks should buy? Cross country? Trail? Downhill? Full suspension? Hardtail? 29"? 27.5+?  Probably best to ask DH?

So, what can a gravel bike do? Ride tarmac. Ride gravel, dirt, mixed terrain.  It be a bikepacking bike. An "adventure" bike (all bikes better be adventure bikes!). It can be a commuter bike. It can be...pretty much almost whatever you want it to be.  Looking at the new Topstone with the Lefty, and it might even be a pretty darn capable XC replacement?

These Brits will make you happy :D

 

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25 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

gravel bikes are almost as overblown as fatbikes. 

....says the guy who rides in Central Park.....

“Gravel bikes” is a shitty name because they’re not only for gravel. They are way, way more versatile than that. I have exactly one gravel road around here, but if a gun were put to my head and I had to have only one bike, it would be a “gravel” bike. It covers 95% of the riding I do. (Fatbike for snow/ deep mud). 

”Roadbike/dirt road bike/gravel road bike/bike path bike/singletrack bike” just doesn’t roll off the tongue of marketing people.

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2 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

....says the guy who rides in Central Park.....

I am always shocked at how fit some of the riders are in CP.  It pisses me off, actually, I hate fast riders (anyone faster than me, and that is a LOT of riders)!

I went into the wilds yesterday across the bridge, and had a great day!

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15 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

doubletrack was and always will be the shit part of any ride

And a road bike will make you look at some sketchier surfaces while you’re riding and go “Gee, I wish I could go there, but I don’t want to ruin the chamois of my new shorts. Damned shame I’m forced into ONE KIND OF RIDING.”

I can go pretty much anywhere I damned well please - apart from really technical singletrack, which we don’t have much of anyway- all in one ride, all on one bike.

There have also been situations where a road bike would have been fine...until I came to some nasty road construction.

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9 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

And a road bike will make you look at some sketchier surfaces while you’re riding and go “Gee, I wish I could go there, but I don’t want to ruin the chamois of my new shorts. Damned shame I’m forced into ONE KIND OF RIDING.”

On one of my favorite road loops, I head up and over a couple relatively tough climbs.  They're a blast, and a good bit of effort.  Anyway, at the start of the first climb, for years I noticed a gravel road running off to the left and always told myself I should see where it goes.  I remembered to actually look at it on a map, and VOILA it solved a routing problem I have pondered for years.  Yesterday, instead of following the fun climbing route (in yellow) I turned left and headed up and over the climb to connect myself with a normally dangerous to reach (by bike) bridge over the Potomac. WINNING!  Sometime later, the green line below will be explored as well.  DOUBLE WINNING!

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1 minute ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

I can go pretty much anywhere I damned well please - apart from really technical singletrack, which we don’t have much of anyway- all in one ride, all on one bike.

There have also been situations where a road bike would have been fine...until I came to some nasty road construction.

Yeah, this is a problem in certain areas.  I used to ride one particular route in Boulder where I had a mile of dirt road connecting segments, and could ride it respectably on the road bike.  Other than that in Boulder, you have to travel a bit to find gravel or fire roads, and the surface condition of the fire roads is often way too iffy and washboardy and downright treacherous.  If you are riding a combination ride, you would ride the mountain bike on the road to the trail.

There isn't jack shit to ride around here, so not having a mountain bike isn't an issue.

 

16 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

You realize you can put 23/25/28s road slicks on a gravel bike, correct?  Then put on maybe 50s on for a different ride? Or settle in the middle with a "covers almost anything" 35s or 38s?

I get a mountain bike for mountain biking, but maybe you can tell me which one of those folks should buy? Cross country? Trail? Downhill? Full suspension? Hardtail? 29"? 27.5+?  Probably best to ask DH?

So, what can a gravel bike do? Ride tarmac. Ride gravel, dirt, mixed terrain.  It be a bikepacking bike. An "adventure" bike (all bikes better be adventure bikes!). It can be a commuter bike. It can be...pretty much almost whatever you want it to be.  Looking at the new Topstone with the Lefty, and it might even be a pretty darn capable XC replacement?

Yeah, you could change tires for every ride, but would you really change themn out all the time like that?  I wouldn't.  Before I had a road bike, I had two sets of wheels for the mountain bike.  I put non-knobbies with a recessed tread pattern on the second set and that could handle pretty much the same terrain as a gravel bike back in 1995. 

The only mountain bike I would consider would be a full-suspension bike, btw.  I am too old to get brutalized by a hardtail.   LIke I said, if I had a specific application that a gravel bike was best at, then maybe I would have one.

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9 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Yeah, you could change tires for every ride, but would you really change themn out all the time like that?  I wouldn't.  Before I had a road bike, I had two sets of wheels for the mountain bike.  I put non-knobbies with a recessed tread pattern on the second set and that could handle pretty much the same terrain as a gravel bike back in 1995. 

The only mountain bike I would consider would be a full-suspension bike, btw.  I am too old to get brutalized by a hardtail.   LIke I said, if I had a specific application that a gravel bike was best at, then maybe I would have one.

Are you looking for ONE bike? Or are you selling us on having MULTIPLE bikes? I'm hearing the latter.  I have four bikes (many folks here seem to have multiple bikes), so I can definitely get behind the "buy a different bike for different conditions" movement!  Hands down, my road bike is NUMERO UNO for road rides.  It will dominate the other bikes I have.  However, the ride with my MTB friend a couple weeks back that left me dirty and abused definitely couldn't be done on my roadie with any sort of modifications.  Hell, I needed the full suspension MTB bike you want.  But, if you're like some folks (FnROS) and want to occasionally turn left on a ride - an unplanned and unexpected "where does this go" moment - you'll be hard pressed to find a better option than a multi-surface type of bike.  Fast enough on smooth roads, capable and relatively comfortable on the unpaved stuff.

Sort of the point of a "gravel" bike is that it cancels out the need for a "specific application" and lands in the "can handle most situations" so you don't need a very specific tool for a very limited and specific situation.

But, I have a toolbox toolboxes full of single use tools that I might use again if I need to do that very specific thing that the all-rounder hammer (or pedal wrench) and its mate the screwdriver can't do.

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18 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Yeah, you could change tires for every ride, but would you really change themn out all the time like that? 

I don't. 650bx40cm tubeless at 35 psi slicks for everything. They've been a bit sketchy in loose sand and demand attention in slick mud, but other than that. they work great.

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2 hours ago, Randomguy said:

I don't think there are all that many gravel roads out there in the world, and gravel bikes are almost as overblown as fatbikes.   I like the versatility of being able to run different tire sizes, but to be honest, it would be a hell of a lot more fun to run big tires on regular race bike for the uncommon instance of being around gravel roads every now and then.  If you live in the approximately 4 places in the world with extensive gravel road networks, then yay, it makes sense.  Otherwise, an endurance bike is fine.

 

I have a true cross bike and am having a blast in it that way. SoCal isn’t ideal for gravel as it’s either paved roads or mountains so I put Maxxis Refuse tires on my crosser. Good for road & light dirt. 

I am having a blast in mixed road & dirt walking paths, horse trails, access roads & such.  “Gravel” for me are basically segments of dirt  I interconnect with roads &  MUPS.   Yesterday I got about 5 of a 20 mile ride in dirt between a dirt service road & dirt walking path along a MUP.  It mixes up the ride and ads a little variety & fun.

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1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Anyway, at the start of the first climb, for years I noticed a gravel road running off to the left and always told myself I should see where it goes. 

When I ride around the lake, there's a railroad bed that kind of diagonally cuts off the corner of the roughly rectangular route. It's a snowmobile trail in winter and ATV trail in the summer. I always looked at it and thought about riding it....then looked at my skinny tires and went "uh...no".

A couple of months ago, I rode the Slate around the lake and tried the trail. It was fun for a while. but the ATVs have ripped it up so badly that I ended up bailing off at a crossroads. (The trail turned and ran almost right alongside the road I was on, anyway).

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7 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

am having a blast in mixed road & dirt walking paths,

On a ride I did last week, I was riding on the road and went past a state park, where there are trails. “Hey, I ought to jump on the trails....because I can do that!” You can even see where I made that decision....:D

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The first segment is an old rail bed -which is why it’s so straight - but it’s grass that they mow about twice a year. Then it goes to loose sand, then to gravel, just where it crosses the creek. After that, it goes back on pavement. Fun stuff.

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11 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

On a ride I did last week, I was riding on the road and went past a state park, where there are trails. “Hey, I ought to jump on the trails....because I can do that!” You can even see where I made that decision....:D

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The first segment is an old rail bed -which is why it’s so straight - but it’s grass that they mow about twice a year. Then it goes to loose sand, then to gravel, just where it crosses the creek. After that, it goes back on pavement. Fun stuff.

So could you not do that on the Roubaix?

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3 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

So could you not do that on the Roubaix?

Oh hell no. The grass portion consisted of 3-4" deep grass - punctuated with potholes and the odd rock. Then it goes to loose sand - even my 40cm tires were a bit squirrelly and unhappy, but they have no knobs at all. The last portion is gravel - but I mean "runner crush". not pea gravel. 

The first part would have beat the shit out of me, the second part I would have had to walk and the last part would be doable, but uncomfortable.

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3 hours ago, Randomguy said:

I don't think there are all that many gravel roads out there in the world, and gravel bikes are almost as overblown as fatbikes.   I like the versatility of being able to run different tire sizes, but to be honest, it would be a hell of a lot more fun to run big tires on regular race bike for the uncommon instance of being around gravel roads every now and then.  If you live in the approximately 4 places in the world with extensive gravel road networks, then yay, it makes sense.  Otherwise, an endurance bike is fine.

 

Gravel roads are everywhere. Being offroad is way more fun that fighting traffic. I've logged more rides on snow and gravel than I pavement in the last decade. 

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12 minutes ago, dennis said:

Gravel roads are everywhere. Being offroad is way more fun that fighting traffic. I've logged more rides on snow and gravel than I pavement in the last decade. 

Bob Roll was talking about the thousands of miles of unpaved roads near him in Durango. I have a hard time even grasping that, but on the other hand, it is big country out there! Heck, if my pretty colonized section of the world has hundreds of miles, it's really quite easy to extrapolate to those large numbers in much larger states.

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8 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Bob Roll was talking about the thousands of miles of unpaved roads near him in Durango. I have a hard time even grasping that, but on the other hand, it is big country out there! Heck, if my pretty colonized section of the world has hundreds of miles, it's really quite easy to extrapolate to those large numbers in much larger states.

When I was flying in & out of Denver last year I was looking at miles & miles of dirt roads that went off in different directions beyond the horizon.  I was thinking damn that’s some serious gravel!

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44 minutes ago, dennis said:

Gravel roads are everywhere. Being offroad is way more fun that fighting traffic. I've logged more rides on snow and gravel than I pavement in the last decade. 

Where you are, yes.  Where 95%+ percent of the bike riding population is, not so much.

19 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

When I was flying in & out of Denver last year I was looking at miles & miles of dirt roads that went off in different directions beyond the horizon.  I was thinking damn that’s some serious gravel!

There really is hardly any gravel, mostly dirt on BLM land.  Like I said earlier, if I am on forest service land, I sure as hell am bringing the mountain bike and riding the singletrack.  If I lived near the BLM land, then I would have to consider how my riding has evolved and look at where you want to place resources.  Most likely, though, I would want the mountain bike to handle the washboardy stuff and the loose sandy downhills unless climbs and descents were moderate.

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5 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Where you are, yes.  Where 95%+ percent of the bike riding population is, not so much.

There really is hardly any gravel, mostly dirt on BLM land.  Like I said earlier, if I am on forest service land, I sure as hell am bringing the mountain bike and riding the singletrack.  If I lived near the BLM land, then I would have to consider how my riding has evolved and look at where you want to place resources.  Most likely, though, I would want the mountain bike to handle the washboardy stuff and the loose sandy downhills unless climbs and descents were moderate.

Outside of most cities, there is plenty of gravel. I started riding gravel in the Midwest. There are thousands of miles of gravel and dirt roads there. Southern WI is an exception because of the dairy industry.

I haven't owned a true road bike in over a decade. I throw road tires on my gravel bike if needed. 

And a fatbike is just a mountain bike that can run a wider tire. I've been riding my fatbike all summer. I might go bikepacking this weekend and I'm debating between my mt bike and fatbike.

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20 minutes ago, dennis said:

Outside of most cities, there is plenty of gravel. I started riding gravel in the Midwest. There are thousands of miles of gravel and dirt roads there. Southern WI is an exception because of the dairy industry.

I haven't owned a true road bike in over a decade. I throw road tires on my gravel bike if needed. 

And a fatbike is just a mountain bike that can run a wider tire. I've been riding my fatbike all summer. I might go bikepacking this weekend and I'm debating between my mt bike and fatbike.

I am definitely jealous of your options for riding terrain!

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Lots of dirt/gravel roads where I live. Some roads start out paved/chipseal and a few miles in the pavement ends. I run 28s slicks on my road bike and 32s slicks on my tourer. I think it’s funny some of the claims noobs are making about the wider tires they just switched to.  I like the wider tires because of the variety of roads I run into but there is no way they are faster on pavement.

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46 minutes ago, F_in Ray Of Sunshine said:

I'll never claim they're faster, but they're surprisingly  not that much slower.

I average 17-18 cruise pace on my Roubaix. On my heavier, 650bx42 Slate, 16-17.

I think the tires you use make the most difference.  Rim width, tire tread, weight, composition all factor into rolling resistance. I love my current set up but have had numerous 32 tires  roll like crap.  

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