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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Why did they panic?  If they had firewood and a fire going, wouldn't that little hut be cozy for a day or two?

I read that the cabin was locked.

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10 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

They should have been prepared or stayed the hell home.

That generally goes without saying.  Considering I always look at the weather before heading out for a ride, I wonder how someone would miss the signs that cold weather was coming in.

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Just now, Razors Edge said:

That generally goes without saying.  Considering I always look at the weather before heading out for a ride, I wonder how someone would miss the signs that cold weather was coming in,

Do you really want an answer?:rolleyes:

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Hell I live in Texas and knew that snow was coming up North and West.

Hopefully they get to foot the bill for being situationally unaware.

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17 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Hopefully they get to foot the bill for being situationally unaware.

This... 

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37 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

ALL FIVE were morans???? Come on!  I guess @Dirtyhip, @dennis, and @ChrisL have given me a false impression that MTB-types are sort of grounded in reality.

I don’t go too far into the outback to really be too worried and our weather rarely has wild swings anyway.

I recall a few years back a MTB’r went out on a ride in our local mountains (I ride coastal foothills but we also have 4,500 Mtn peaks nearby).  He went out during a heavy rain which then turned into a torrential downpour, especially in the mountains. He called 911 for a rescue but they couldn’t get to where he was at due to the conditions and he died of hypothermia.  

In hindsight he probably should have stayed home & skipped that ride. It was a wake up call for many mountain bikers though.  Rescue crews may not always be able to pull you out so be prepared going in.

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1 hour ago, jsharr said:

Hopefully they get to foot the bill for being situationally unaware.

That remains a horrible idea (clearly in jest, though).

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2 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

That remains a horrible idea (clearly in jest, though).

Not sure if you remember a few years back when two teenagers went missing in a local hiking area Holy Jim Canyon.  The girl was friends with my daughter & I grew up with the girls mom.  Anyway we knew she had a drug problem and probably went on a bender in the woods. That’s exactly what happened and when she came to a day or two later she was in a place she couldn’t hike out so had to be air lifted out.

Anyway during the rescue, a rescuer was seriously injured and sued the family for damages.  I believe there was talk of reimbursing the county as well.  I don’t know how it all ended but I do know the girls grandparents sold their house to cover legal expenses.

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27 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Not sure if you remember a few years back when two teenagers went missing in a local hiking area Holy Jim Canyon.  The girl was friends with my daughter & I grew up with the girls mom.  Anyway we knew she had a drug problem and probably went on a bender in the woods. That’s exactly what happened and when she came to a day or two later she was in a place she couldn’t hike out so had to be air lifted out.

Anyway during the rescue, a rescuer was seriously injured and sued the family for damages.  I believe there was talk of reimbursing the county as well.  I don’t know how it all ended but I do know the girls grandparents sold their house to cover legal expenses.

Yeah, that's a tough situation.  I'm not sure why the girl (an adult) couldn't just say screw it and declare bankruptcy but maybe court decisions would have saddled her - already with issues - with a life of deep indebtedness.  The grandparents likely should have let it play out (but would be emotionally tied to her enough to try to help).  Still, saving her alive was likely better than sending the same team in later to retrieve her dead body?  The risks are REAL for the folks doing those jobs (you know and so does Zephyr) so that's hopefully why we - as taxpayers - provide them all the support, training, and tools they need to lower those risks as much as possible.

But it comes back to "society" and what we want as a society. Do we want folks making the calculation of fighting the fire in their back yard with their garden hose vs risking calling the fire department because they are worried they might be on the hook for the call?  Same with a police response? Do we want to be a society that places more value on $$$ than on a human(s) life?

I pay a bit of tax money for public safety (there's a budget of $2.25 billion in my county for police & fire including our search and rescue teams). My hope is the taxes I pay are going towards serious stuff as much as possible - which happens to include rescuing stupid people doing stupid things that may cost them (or others) their lives.  It's my contribution to kind society.  

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Just now, Razors Edge said:

Yeah, that's a tough situation.  I'm not sure why the girl (an adult) couldn't just say screw it and declare bankruptcy but maybe court decisions would have saddled her - already with issues - with a life of deep indebtedness.  The grandparents likely should have let it play out (but would be emotionally tied to her enough to try to help).  Still, likely better than sending the same team in later to retrieve her dead body?  The risk are REAL for the folks doing those jobs (you know and so does Zephyr) so that's hopefully why we - as taxpayers - provide them all the support, training, and tools they need to lower those risks as much as possible.

But it comes back to "society" and what we want as a society. Do we want folks making the calculation of fighting the fire in their back yard with their garden hose vs risking calling the fire department because they are worried they might be on the hook for the call?  Same with a police response? Do we want to be a society that places more value on $$$ than on a human(s) life?

I pay a bit of tax money for public safety (there's a budget of $2.25 billion in my county for police & fire including our search and rescue teams). My hope is the taxes I pay are going towards serious stuff as much as possible - which happens to include rescuing stupid people doing stupid things that may cost them (or others) their lives.  It's my contribution to kind society.  

A few years ago in one area I lived they passed a law that if you were lost and SAR was deployed and you did not have some minor provisions (map, compass, emerg blanket, fire starting tools ) with you, you could be financially billed for the cost of the search.

In very short order there were several cases of overdue people that were days and days delayed being called in because the family did not want to be on the hook for the bill and was banking on the vic walking out.  Several were fatalities that could have been a save if called in a timely manner.  The law was repealed shortly thereafter.

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I was planning to ride this trail last weekend. Our plan was to finish by Monday, but I had Tuesday off just in case. I tried to reserve the cabin mentioned for Sunday, but it was booked. My friends backed out so I switched gears and was planning to ride part of the Divide route instead. Seeing the weather report I canceled my plans.

To be clear, the storm was bigger than predicted. We were warned of a flake or two, but some areas in the valley received 3-4 inches and two of my co-workers lost power. 

I rode Monday in shorts, temps were in the 70s. Later it dropped to the 20s or 30s and we had snow in the mountains as well as the valley. 

The people in the story were about 7 miles from the trailhead and about 17 miles from Bozeman. 

I've been caught in storms bigger than this and I had the proper gear. I've also been caught in lesser storms unprepared and paid the price. Shit happens.

 

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6 hours ago, jsharr said:

Hell I live in Texas and knew that snow was coming up North and West.

Hopefully they get to foot the bill for being situationally unaware.

 

5 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

This... 

Where do we draw the line? If you are shitty cook and start a kitchen fire, should you pay the FD for showing up?

What if you buy a mylar balloons, they get away, hit a power line and cause a wildfire? 

SAR has been very busy here this summer. Tourists falling off horses, rolling ATVs, getting lost etc. Should they pay?

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22 minutes ago, dennis said:

 

Where do we draw the line? If you are shitty cook and start a kitchen fire, should you pay the FD for showing up?

What if you buy a mylar balloons, they get away, hit a power line and cause a wildfire? 

SAR has been very busy here this summer. Tourists falling off horses, rolling ATVs, getting lost etc. Should they pay?

Only if they are from Texas

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1 hour ago, dennis said:

 

Where do we draw the line? If you are shitty cook and start a kitchen fire, should you pay the FD for showing up?

What if you buy a mylar balloons, they get away, hit a power line and cause a wildfire? 

SAR has been very busy here this summer. Tourists falling off horses, rolling ATVs, getting lost etc. Should they pay?

Where do we draw the line?  I think there could be a case for people needing help when they disregard safety warnings or gross negligence.  

Like my example, go in a drug fueled bender in the woods & need rescue, yeah for sure. We often have small craft advisories. Go out in a 12’ craft during an advisory, yeah pay up.  DUI in a quad in the bush. Yeah.

Accidents happen and people shouldn’t be billed for an accident needing rescue.  

 

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2 hours ago, dennis said:

Where do we draw the line? If you are shitty cook and start a kitchen fire, should you pay the FD for showing up?

What if you buy a mylar balloons, they get away, hit a power line and cause a wildfire? 

SAR has been very busy here this summer. Tourists falling off horses, rolling ATVs, getting lost etc. Should they pay?

Let keep this in context about what happened.  Hiking and biking into a remote area.   That's not a kitchen fire.  I hate mylar balloons, they should be banned, just because they cause do power related issues. But I digress...

WoBG and I have traveled all over US to go hiking. Most of our vacations, hiking was what we did while on vacation.  All of our hikes were day hikes.  But I always carried everything we needed for a safe hike.  Not being prepared is how you can get into trouble.   The longer the hike the more I carried, just in case...  Knowing what were were doing, what the hazards could be, what the expected (and unexpected) weather could be was part of preparing for the hike.  In Alaska, it was warm... but we still carried jackets that were good for warmth and rain too. etc...    In South Dakota the jackets and our hats were used for an unexpected summer thunderstorm on a mountain trail, they helped with the hail.  Knowing when to stop and return to the trail head is also part of your personal safety. Like when we were hiking Mt Katahdin in Maine.  We got to Chimney Pond, and decided continuing up and over Knife's Edge was too much for us on a day hike and we skipped that part of the hike.

https://www.treehugger.com/when-hikers-need-help-who-foots-rescue-bill-4863857

These people were about 10 miles from the trail head (assuming Google is correct)  They were staying in a cabin.   They should have been more prepared. 

image.thumb.png.67ddb488c7a846dc311ada3a91d0012d.png

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Let keep this in context about what happened.  Hiking and biking into a remote area.   That's not a kitchen fire.  I hate mylar balloons, they should be banned, just because they cause do power related issues. But I digress...

WoBG and I have traveled all over US to go hiking. Most of our vacations, hiking was what we did while on vacation.  All of our hikes were day hikes.  But I always carried everything we needed for a safe hike.  Not being prepared is how you can get into trouble.   The longer the hike the more I carried, just in case...  Knowing what were were doing, what the hazards could be, what the expected (and unexpected) weather could be was part of preparing for the hike.  In Alaska, it was warm... but we still carried jackets that were good for warmth and rain too. etc...    In South Dakota the jackets and our hats were used for an unexpected summer thunderstorm on a mountain trail, they helped with the hail.  Knowing when to stop and return to the trail head is also part of your personal safety. Like when we were hiking Mt Katahdin in Maine.  We got to Chimney Pond, and decided continuing up and over Knife's Edge was too much for us on a day hike and we skipped that part of the hike.

https://www.treehugger.com/when-hikers-need-help-who-foots-rescue-bill-4863857

These people were about 10 miles from the trail head (assuming Google is correct)  They were staying in a cabin.   They should have been more prepared. 

image.thumb.png.67ddb488c7a846dc311ada3a91d0012d.png

 

 

Of course they should have been better prepared. That is so easy to say after the fact. So is that how you judge? After the fact, you assess their gear list and say, nope you didn't have the proper gear, you pay. SAR has been busy all year here. Who decides which rescues are free and which ones pay?

We live in danger of avalanches Nov-April. Should you be required to have level one avalanche training to enter the backcountry? If not you pay for the rescue. Should we check for bear spray at every trailhead?

The weather report I read said snow above 8000 ft. That cabin is at 6500 ft and the trailhead is 5338 ft. They had a 7-10 mile descent. That's an hour on a bike.

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8 hours ago, dennis said:

 

Where do we draw the line? If you are shitty cook and start a kitchen fire, should you pay the FD for showing up?

What if you buy a mylar balloons, they get away, hit a power line and cause a wildfire? 

SAR has been very busy here this summer. Tourists falling off horses, rolling ATVs, getting lost etc. Should they pay?

What would happen if there were no SAR?  There would be no requirement to pay then.

Of course the consequences might be personally more expensive.

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19 hours ago, jsharr said:

Hopefully they get to foot the bill for being situationally unaware.

 

18 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

That remains a horrible idea (clearly in jest, though).

Every spring I hear stories about people who drive out on to one of the Great Lakes to ice fish.  I usually starts when temperatures get into the mid-30's or low 40's.  They'll be fishing and the section of ice they're on breaks away and they get stranded.  The Coast Guard has to fly out to get them.  The Coasties charge them for the helicopter ride.

 

17 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

But it comes back to "society" and what we want as a society. Do we want folks making the calculation of fighting the fire in their back yard with their garden hose vs risking calling the fire department because they are worried they might be on the hook for the call?  Same with a police response? Do we want to be a society that places more value on $$$ than on a human(s) life?

In my opinion, the more pre-meditation that goes into the risky activity the less problem I have with billing the person being saved.  With respect to people getting stuck on the ice that I mentioned above.  I have little problem with the Coast Guard billing the people they rescue.  It happens in the spring after a couple days with a temperature over freezing, the weather heads on the local news will tell you the days temperature and they'll often warn that the ice is getting weak yet they drive out on the ice anyway.

I have more sympathy for the girl in ChrisL's story who went on a bender in the woods.  I am going to ignore the drug aspect of the story since even a sober person can hike into an area that are hard to hike out of.  Unfortunately, you don't know you're in that situation until you try to get out.  There was no premeditation in the act.  I guess the easy rebuttal would be to say that they should have been more careful to which I'd reply while hiking and getting lost, the situation may not have warranted more caution.

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57 minutes ago, Mr. Grumpy said:

 

Every spring I hear stories about people who drive out on to one of the Great Lakes to ice fish.  I usually starts when temperatures get into the mid-30's or low 40's.  They'll be fishing and the section of ice they're on breaks away and they get stranded.  The Coast Guard has to fly out to get them.  The Coasties charge them for the helicopter ride.

 

In my opinion, the more pre-meditation that goes into the risky activity the less problem I have with billing the person being saved.  With respect to people getting stuck on the ice that I mentioned above.  I have little problem with the Coast Guard billing the people they rescue.  It happens in the spring after a couple days with a temperature over freezing, the weather heads on the local news will tell you the days temperature and they'll often warn that the ice is getting weak yet they drive out on the ice anyway.

I have more sympathy for the girl in ChrisL's story who went on a bender in the woods.  I am going to ignore the drug aspect of the story since even a sober person can hike into an area that are hard to hike out of.  Unfortunately, you don't know you're in that situation until you try to get out.  There was no premeditation in the act.  I guess the easy rebuttal would be to say that they should have been more careful to which I'd reply while hiking and getting lost, the situation may not have warranted more caution.

Slippery slope. A VERY slippery slope.

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I don't consider people choosing to hike into the mountains to be in similar circumstances to someone calling or not for a police or fire response.  IMO folks choosing to wander out into the wilderness are on their own.  If the slope is slippery, wear crampons.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

I don't consider people choosing to hike into the mountains to be in similar circumstances to someone calling or not for a police or fire response.  IMO folks choosing to wander out into the wilderness are on their own.  If the slope is slippery, wear crampons.

Yeah, that's the society you may want.  I prefer one a wee bit more civilized, but it is why we come together to discuss policy and governance. 

I'd hazard a guess that far more of your local and state fire, rescue, police, etc. go towards accidents in and around the home, not off in the wilderness.  You're looking to save a cup of coffee off your annual state and local taxes to justify leaving a hiker to their own devices or a long term indebtedness, but willing to give a pass to the fool who leaves a kitchen towel on the stove??

I think there can be a line drawn at CRIMINAL activity - ie if they get charged with some sort of felony - trespass, destruction of property, reckless endangerment, etc., then you're into different territory, and penalties become a reasonable option.

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38 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Yeah, that's the society you may want.  I prefer one a wee bit more civilized, but it is why we come together to discuss policy and governance. 

I'd hazard a guess that far more of your local and state fire, rescue, police, etc. go towards accidents in and around the home, not off in the wilderness.  You're looking to save a cup of coffee off your annual state and local taxes to justify leaving a hiker to their own devices or a long term indebtedness, but willing to give a pass to the fool who leaves a kitchen towel on the stove??

I think there can be a line drawn at CRIMINAL activity - ie if they get charged with some sort of felony - trespass, destruction of property, reckless endangerment, etc., then you're into different territory, and penalties become a reasonable option.

You do not seem able to distinguish between the two different response situations.

Go worry about what time it is.

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There is a VERY large sand dune along Lake Michigan up in @questrider's neck of the woods.  It has a great overlook of the lake and is very popular.  People like to climb dunes so they head down and many can't make it back up (did I mention it is a big dune).  There is no vehicle access at the bottom of the dune - none.  People had to be rescued via water access from a local VFD.  A simple thing like "Hey Mable, lets slide down the dune" resulted in a rescue effort on a typical Saturday afternoon.  The big sign at the top of the dune use to say "Don't go down if you can't climb back up"  Now it says something like "Don't go down if you can't afford the cost of the rescue effort."   "Gosh Mable, it was just a sand dune"

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1 hour ago, Kzoo said:

There is a VERY large sand dune along Lake Michigan up in @questrider's neck of the woods.  It has a great overlook of the lake and is very popular.  People like to climb dunes so they head down and many can't make it back up (did I mention it is a big dune).  There is no vehicle access at the bottom of the dune - none.  People had to be rescued via water access from a local VFD.  A simple thing like "Hey Mable, lets slide down the dune" resulted in a rescue effort on a typical Saturday afternoon.  The big sign at the top of the dune use to say "Don't go down if you can't climb back up"  Now it says something like "Don't go down if you can't afford the cost of the rescue effort."   "Gosh Mable, it was just a sand dune"

Yeah... WoBG and I visited that park.  If I recall Sleeping Dunes??    Like I mentioned we prepare for hikes.   I looked at that sand dune and I asked my wife, so how many people go down this sand dune to Lake Michigan, and can't make it back to the top?  If I recall it was about 400 feet down,  

WoBG suggested lets go.   I told her we don't have the time or the energy or water, to do that hike.  (it was late in the afternoon)  Sure going down would be easy. Trying to bet back up, would be WAY more difficult.  You are in the afternoon sun, there is no water (bring your own) and people weren't doing that,  Climbing up this 400 foot sand dune could as difficult as climbing the up 1200 foot mountain trail.   No way was I gong to do that hike unprepared. 

I'm sure many would need to be rescued. 

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14 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

If I recall Sleeping Dunes??

Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore Park.  Yes.

 

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Speaking of hiking up after hiking down...  the Grand Canyon.  Lots of people get in trouble there too. 

WoBG our grandson and I spent 3 days there once on a trip out west.  Before we started down into the canyon we discussed our hike.  (Many pre task safety meetings at work become a habit)  I was timing the hike down and when it was time to stop and go back up.  WoBG... but I'm not tired.   I told her OK... rather than looking down at the river, look back up the trail at the rim.  I got the OMG that's a long way up look.  It gets hotter the deeper you hike into the canyon.  

I remember seeing a kid pass out on a trail.  Turned pale white and just fell over.   Of course the parents didn't have any water.  How do they do that???   At least they just made it back to the trail head and help was there. 

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Ya'll don't want to rescue somebody, don't, just stay at home and relax. If you do go out and rescue somebody, don't expect to get paid.

Maybe tell the people up front what the ride home will cost, a lot of them would probably turn it down. 

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