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Quote of the Day: Andrew Carnegie


Razors Edge

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...is a mouthful:

The growing disposition to tax more and more heavily large estates left at death is a cheering indication of the growth of a salutary change in public opinion. The State of Pennsylvania now takes–subject to some exceptions–one tenth of the property left by its citizens. The budget presented in the British Parliament the other day proposes to increase the death duties; and, most significant of all, the new tax is to be a graduated one. Of all forms of taxation this seems the wisest. Men who continue hoarding great sums all their lives, the proper use of which for public ends would work good to the community from which it chiefly came, should be made to feel that the community, in the form of the State, cannot thus be deprived of its proper share. By taxing estates heavily at death the State marks its condemnation of the selfish millionaire's unworthy life.

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1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

The rich simply hide their wealth in a manner that makes it the property of the heirs.  That's if their high powered tax men haven't made it appear that they are destitute and on their last dime

:D  If you aren't working with a tax attorney, you're not doing it correctly!  CCR - decades ago - NAILED it with this song. This is good campaigning music!

 

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4 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

It's their money.  Why not?

 

Because the laws are written in a manner that allows them to do that by using expensive law firms while the average joe is not capable of taking advantage of services that cost that much.  Those loophole laws are written that way so as to make tax rates on the rich moot.

It's close to corruption frankly.  Everyone should pay the same rate on all of their income.

This is getting close to political, but the advantages that the fat cats have is one of the roots of the difficulties that the country finds itself in now in terms of inequality..........not the inequality of wealth, but the inequality of how that wealth is accumulated.

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1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

Because the laws are written in a manner that allows them to do that by using expensive law firms while the average joe is not capable of taking advantage of services that cost that much.  Those loophole laws are written that way so as to make tax rates on the rich moot.

It's close to corruption frankly.  Everyone should pay the same rate on all of their income.

This is getting close to political, but the advantages that the fat cats have is one of the roots of the difficulties that the country finds itself in now in terms of inequality..........not the inequality of wealth, but the inequality of how that wealth is accumulated.

Meh - can't do a flat tax until you overhaul just about the entire legal system.  You can't erase centuries of effort to create an advantage simply by giving some of the richest folks yet another chance to pay less.

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3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Meh - can't do a flat tax until you overhaul just about the entire legal system.  You can't erase centuries of effort to create an advantage simply by giving some of the richest folks yet another chance to pay less.

Not talking about flat tax.

Everyone could still pay a progressive rate that is not unreasonable (like 95% for the rich is unreasonable).  But they should pay it on all income without being able to shelter it so it never appears on the tax return.  This was the basis for somebody once saying that he paid less tax on his income than his secretary.

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4 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Because the laws are written in a manner that allows them to do that by using expensive law firms while the average joe is not capable of taking advantage of services that cost that much.  Those loophole laws are written that way so as to make tax rates on the rich moot.

It's close to corruption frankly.  Everyone should pay the same rate on all of their income.

This is getting close to political, but the advantages that the fat cats have is one of the roots of the difficulties that the country finds itself in now in terms of inequality..........not the inequality of wealth, but the inequality of how that wealth is accumulated.

So what you are saying is that the bottom 25% that don't pay any income taxes should pay the same as the wealthy.  And remember, before the wealthy can 'hide' some money in a trust for their kids, they have already paid income tax on that.  And if it was money from a corporation, the corporation already paid taxes on the distribution as well as corporation income tax before it as a distribution.  So you are fine with the same dollars being taxed 4 times as long as they aren't your dollars.

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4 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

So what you are saying is that the bottom 25% that don't pay any income taxes should pay the same as the wealthy.  And remember, before the wealthy can 'hide' some money in a trust for their kids, they have already paid income tax on that.  And if it was money from a corporation, the corporation already paid taxes on the distribution as well as corporation income tax before it as a distribution.  So you are fine with the same dollars being taxed 4 times as long as they aren't your dollars.

That's corporate BS.  If a corporation want' to be a "person" then it can pay taxes on it's income and if investors are people then they can pay a tax on their income.  Let's not pretend that someone's stock dividend has already had taxes taken out at a higher lever.  That sort of thinking would remove all costs but the first from products as they came down the line to the consumer.

And you last sentence is totally fabricated.  I'm willing to pay exactly the same kind of taxes you or some CEO do.

Upon reflection the first sentence is BS too as the poor will still get a break in a mildly progressive tax structure.

In fact, if the rich are required to pay tax in a fair manner then the rates will probably drop for everyone, rich or poor because of the increases in tax revenue.

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1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

That's corporate BS.  If a corporation want' to be a "person" then it can pay taxes on it's income and if investors are people then they can pay a tax on their income.  Let's not pretend that someone's stock dividend has already had taxes taken out at a higher lever.  That sort of thinking would remove all costs but the first from products as they came down the line to the consumer.

You obviously have no idea how corporations are taxed.  It starts with income at the bottom of the P&L.  If that income is distributed in the form of dividends is taxed again.  And then the investor is 'happy' to pay income tax as well.  Corporations pay taxes.  And they are not a person.  People are people and corporations are tax identities.  And people are tax identities as well.

A corporation will attempt to lessen its tax liability just the same as you.

Thinking that corporations don't pay taxes it the real BS.

 

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5 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

You obviously have no idea how corporations are taxed.  It starts with income at the bottom of the P&L.  If that income is distributed in the form of dividends is taxed again.  And then the investor is 'happy' to pay income tax as well.  Corporations pay taxes.  And they are not a person.  People are people and corporations are tax identities.  And people are tax identities as well.

A corporation will attempt to lessen its tax liability just the same as you.

Thinking that corporations don't pay taxes it the real BS.

 

Corporations are far too close to being people.  Lessening tax liability is the scam by which the rich hide income.  Pay what is fair without exceptions.  That's what most of the little people do.  Without the expensive tax lawyers they haven't got access to many of the means of "hiding income"   Those that they had like credit card interest etc are quickly taken away.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

Pay what is fair without exceptions.  That's what most of the little people do.

That right there is only one of the reasons your argument falls flat.  Some figures from 2017 as an example

In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

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1 minute ago, Kzoo said:

That right there is only one of the reasons your argument falls flat.  Some figures from 2017 as an example

In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

Is that relevant?  It seems odd that despite the onerous level of taxation, the top 1 percent so how - almost magically???? - overcame the odds and expanded their percentage of the overall wealth of the nation.  Strange huh? How one can be taxed to the gills yet get richer, while the poorest, tax not one iota, get poorer? 

From this link:

Average wealth has increased over the past 50 years, but it has not grown equally for all groups. Between 1963 and 2016,

  • families near the bottom of the wealth distribution (those at the 10th percentile) went from having no wealth on average to being about $1,000 in debt,
  • those in the middle more than doubled their wealth,
  • families near the top (at the 90th percentile) saw their wealth increase fivefold,
  • and the wealth of those at the 99th percentile—in other words, those wealthier than 99 percent of all families—grew sevenfold.

These changes have increased wealth inequality significantly. In 1963, families near the top had six times the wealth (or, $6 for every $1) of families in the middle. By 2016, they had 12 times the wealth of families in the middle.

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1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Strange huh? How one can be taxed to the gills yet get richer, while the poorest, tax not one iota, get poorer? 

There are no easy answers here.  If there were we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This conversation actually started with Andrew's views on inheritance tax.  To have a conversation on inheritance tax one has to be wealthy enough to have the estate taxed.  I say take that wealth away from him so there will be no need to tax it.  Give it to people more deserving.  People who have little of no money.  That right there will increase the rolls of those not paying taxes so we will need to tax those with wealth even more - creating less incentive to succeed.  It's a wonderful vicious cycle.

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4 hours ago, Kzoo said:

That right there is only one of the reasons your argument falls flat.  Some figures from 2017 as an example

In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

I'm going to expose that meme for the lie it is perpetrated on the world by the rich.  The meme uses the total of taxes paid, not the rate.  The rich do pay the most taxes in dollar value but at a much lower rate of their income than the middle class do.  The top 1 and 10% make so much money that they can hide 50% of it and still pay the most taxes.  The remaining people can pay at their full income and rate and still not pay that much.  But the wealthy are still scamming the system because they are getting away with hiding so much of their income.  If the wealthy paid at a fair rate on all of their income then the rate could be lower for everybody.  That's why a a very rich man can state that he pays less taxes than his secretary.  Hidden income and tax rules written by tax lawyers are nothing but a way to continue the accumulation of wealth for the top 1 and 10%.  Wealth disparity is destroying this country.

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