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Feel bad because I was annoyed


Airehead

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If I had been under the stress you've been under lately, working so hard at the school, worrying about your staff and students, taking care of the dogs and then worrying about Einstein, I probably would have sat in the car sobbing.  When I get overtired, or too stressed, sometimes it just takes one little thing to set me off   Don't be hard on yourself.   It's still good to count your blessings when you can  but that doesn't mean you can't be annoyed sometimes too.

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13 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Anger leads to people driving cars into the protests.  Nothing gained there.  I'm glad you were patient.

I just don't see anything good from blocking traffic.  Anger, the feeling of potentially being threatened.... this can all lead to poor decision making.  At some point someone is going to get hurt because of it.  Not everyone is as cool as Airhead was.  

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10 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I agree, particularly at a medical center where people are already in crisis. Unless that was an unintended consequence of protesting at City Hall, with the crowd size spilling over to block a garage of a nearby facility?

 

No, it was purposeful. Protesters upset with the treatment of Daniel Prude who was seen there for mental health issues, released, and dead after a police altercation later that night. Hospital is several miles from down town. 

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15 hours ago, Airehead said:

Sometimes we forget to count blessings first. I found myself in that situation today. I had been to the hospital trying to keep Einstein’s spirits up but he is pretty low today. He has seen three covering cardiologists this weekend. Each has a different theory.  Still waiting on the guys from Boston Scientific but they don’t work weekends so no news on whether the unit is defective. We were walking in the halls round and round and round so many people look much worse than he does. 
 

I stay a little longer than I should and then go to leave. There is a very  peaceful protest in front of the hospital. They are, however, blocking the exit to the parking garage and the one on the other end of the garage is closed because it is a weekend. So I sit and wait and wIt, getting more annoyed by the moment. I was worried about the dogs because we don’t like to leave them more than four hours.   I was getting my phone to call Couch to see if he could go let them out and finally they started moving. Protest at hospital was peacefully over and they were moving downtown. 
 

I watched them march kindly by chanting no justice, no peace. Then I remembered that my annoyance was very self-centered. I was merely inconvenienced.   I was going home to great dogs, my husband will probably live, my house is safe, and I am not afraid of walking down my hometown streets. I have nothing to be annoyed about.  

I don't think you should feel annoyed because the location of a protest was chosen to inconvenience people who are stressed because loved ones are sick or dying.  What a thoughtless act by assholes!  They could have had the protest at a place that doesn't do that.

It's the same a protesters blocking highways and stopping traffic including ambulances and fire trucks and police called to violent situations, not to mention people who have to soil their pants because they're stuck for hours.  ASSHOLES.  You should be annoyed by them.

 

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4 hours ago, Airehead said:
5 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

 

No, it was purposeful. Protesters upset with the treatment of Daniel Prude who was seen there for mental health issues, released, and dead after a police altercation later that night.

Was Mr. Prude requesting treatment and was discharged over his protest? I’ll assume the medical rationale for that decision hasn’t been released and therefore isn’t known to these protestors?

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Was Mr. Prude requesting treatment and was discharged over his protest? I’ll assume the medical rationale for that decision hasn’t been released and therefore isn’t known to these protestors?

Correct and won’t be released due to privacy concerns. 

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Just now, Airehead said:

Correct and won’t be released due to privacy concerns. 

I'm under the assumption hospitals are in a tough space between "holding" and treating folks with mental or drug-induced issues.  Likely they WANT to help folks, but are really not in the position to be ABLE to help - perhaps due to legal challenges, financial or facility limitations, and/or consideration for other patients. 

If I remember my afterschool specials from way back, PCP is a messed up drug!  What's the process once the hospital makes a diagnosis of "out of their mind on PCP"?  Hold them? I doubt it. Medicate them? No way. Hand off to police? Unlikely. Release? Likely :(

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21 hours ago, Further said:

Protest

Is different from disagree    

Disagree I tell my thoughts

Protest I inconvenience you, so maybe you think about my disagreement

Riot is protest gone bad

Revolution is the final step

There are a lot of pissed off people in this country, I sure don't know the answer, I hope somebody finds it. 

POTD

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...the people have the right to protest, as long as they stay within certain legal boundaries.

You have the right to be annoyed, as long as you stay within certain legal boundaries.

 

If you think about it, a bunch of people protesting are expressing their annoyance with something. so everyone involved is at least a little bit annoyed.

 

Every time  @Square Wheels talks about protest in this way that he is wont to do, I find myself getting mildly annoyed.  Not enough to protest, but certainly enough to get in a small dig like this  one. :) 

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On 9/27/2020 at 4:23 PM, Square Wheels said:

I don't agree.  What are they hoping to accomplish by inconveniencing hospital patients, visitors, or staff?  I would not have been as patient.  I don't go to work because I love the long hours or small (comparable) pay.  I do it because I believe in the mission of my hospital, to take care of people.

...this protest was (apparently) in direct response to the way that hospital performs its mission.  Rightly or wrongly, these people have chosen to take issue with it.  You can only get so far with a board of directors by writing very stern letters, filled with reasonable argument and appeals to morality. You're welcome.  Also, I think I already mentioned that protests like this are a good place to score with chicks.

 

Your pal,

Page the hippie protester.

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13 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

I'm under the assumption hospitals are in a tough space between "holding" and treating folks with mental or drug-induced issues.  Likely they WANT to help folks, but are really not in the position to be ABLE to help - perhaps due to legal challenges, financial or facility limitations, and/or consideration for other patients. 

If I remember my afterschool specials from way back, PCP is a messed up drug!  What's the process once the hospital makes a diagnosis of "out of their mind on PCP"?  Hold them? I doubt it. Medicate them? No way. Hand off to police? Unlikely. Release? Likely :(

A little reading shows that Mr. Prude’s brother called the police for dangerous behavior displayed while high on PCP, requesting an involuntary psychiatric evaluation. This quote suggests that if he sobered up/came down during the assessment, that New York State law makes discharge the appropriate decision. If so, the protestors are effectively asking the hospital to violate his civil rights and keep him in the hospital against his will beyond the assessment of his sobriety.

"Those people cannot be held against their will once they are back to their baseline and are no longer exhibiting behaviors that were in question," Dr. Mary Marrocco, medical director of Behavioral Health and Emergency and Consult Services at Rochester Regional Health, told the station.

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

A little reading shows that Mr. Prude’s brother called the police for dangerous behavior displayed while high on PCP, requesting an involuntary psychiatric evaluation. This quote suggests that if he sobered up/came down during the assessment, that New York State law makes discharge the appropriate decision. If so, the protestors are effectively asking the hospital to violate his civil rights and keep him in the hospital against his will beyond the assessment of his sobriety.

"Those people cannot be held against their will once they are back to their baseline and are no longer exhibiting behaviors that were in question," Dr. Mary Marrocco, medical director of Behavioral Health and Emergency and Consult Services at Rochester Regional Health, told the station.

clearly a racist policy :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

If so, the protestors are effectively asking the hospital to violate his civil rights and keep him in the hospital against his will beyond the assessment of his sobriety.

More like feeling frustrated and powerless within a system that thinks what was done was "enough".  Hospitals, families, cops, firefighters, teachers, neighbors, etc. are all in tough positions because they are working within a BROKEN system - especially a broken mental health and health coverage system.  So, over time the frustration of living within a system that seems to be stacked against you and which, even when you try to do the right thing (call the cops, get medical help, etc.), you still end up with a dead brother/son/father/husband :(

You protest the police, the courts, the capitol building, the governors/mayors home, the hospital, the fire station, the school, or even the library because those places are the emblems of the "system", and the doctors and hospital admins are part of the powerful class that crafts the rules.  The police or fire or teachers are the unions that get listened to.  The governor, mayors & legislators are the ones who change the rules, and the judges the ones who interpret them.  So, if your letter writing campaign and your yard sign fail to prompt a change from a broken, not-working-for-all system to a humane and fair system, you start taking the word to the streets.  A reasonable system hears those protests for change and course corrects.

So, I'm guessing it is the inhumanity of the whole situation that eventually drives folks to their protesting and pushing for change. 

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26 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

they are working within a BROKEN system

When was it ever not "broken". There is always somebody that excluded either by design or by accident. Can you tell the difference? 

One of the situations I keep hearing about is the claim of illness, injury, or the ilk. Somebody runs over somebody and then they claim unknown medical condition. Somebody waves a gun around shooting innocents and its a drug overdose problem. Somebody robs, drives away at a high rate of speed, crashes, jumps out of the car to run, gets caught and claims injury. Somebody bullies innocents and gets taken down and claims he can't breath.

Where is the system broken in the face of lies?

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9 minutes ago, donkpow said:

When was it ever not "broken". There is always somebody that excluded either by design or by accident. Can you tell the difference? 

One of the situations I keep hearing about is the claim of illness, injury, or the ilk. Somebody runs over somebody and then they claim unknown medical condition. Somebody waves a gun around shooting innocents and its a drug overdose problem. Somebody robs, drives away at a high rate of speed, crashes, jumps out of the car to run, gets caught and claims injury. Somebody bullies innocents and gets taken down and claims he can't breath.

Where is the system broken in the face of lies?

Yep - sort of the balancing act we aim for - keep folks happy/content enough they don't see the need to take to the streets.  Eventually, periods of "quiet" are slowly pushed far enough out of whack that some groups take a look around and say WTF??? I'm used to bad, but all of a sudden, I see awful!  This ain't fair, and b-o-o-m folks take to the streets.  Some level of unfair or unequal is tolerated, but keep taking a little too much at a time and eventually the frog might realized it is being boiled!

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2 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Yep - sort of the balancing act we aim for - keep folks happy/content enough they don't see the need to take to the streets.  Eventually, periods of "quiet" are slowly pushed far enough out of whack that some groups take a look around and say WTF??? I'm used to bad, but all of a sudden, I see awful!  This ain't fair, and b-o-o-m folks take to the streets.  Some level of unfair or unequal is tolerated, but keep taking a little too much at a time and eventually the frog might realized it is being boiled!

There is no doubt injustice exists. What we want is that the injustice to not be institutionalized. Also, not to be tolerated by those in power. So then the problem becomes, what is just in a general form? The idea is nearly impossible to implement and is why courts are in place to act as the ultimate authority. What is happening is that the needle is shifting. Unfortunately, those most vociferous are also the most stupid. Like usual.

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1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

the doctors and hospital admins are part of the powerful class that crafts the rules. 

As far as I can tell, the laws are written in the State Capital, not this ER. 
 

I’d be more understanding of the anger if he were seeking treatment and was refused/turned away. But it seems pretty clear that any evaluation that was done was involuntary, so if he no longer met dangerousness criteria for admission because the drugs wore off, there’s not an option for continued involuntary treatment. 
 

Is it a broken system because you can’t force drug treatment over refusal? Absent a court ordered program related to other criminal charges, that is.

 

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25 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

As far as I can tell, the laws are written in the State Capital, not this ER. ....

Is it a broken system because you can’t force drug treatment over refusal? 

 

..the brokenness in this regard goes back a ways.  If you look at the history of our mental health care system, (and I include drug abusers and other addicts in this general category of needed care,) it pretty clearly divides itself into pre and post Reagan era here in California.  And just as clearly, (to me anyway,) the rationale was some kind of "mentally ill people have rights, too".  My own analysis has concluded that this was done not so much to liberate those with mental illness from the yoke of societal oppression, as it was to save the cash expended on their care.

 

At the time, there were grand rhetorical schemes posited for an enormous network to allow outpatient treatment of these people, and for housing them with dignity.  It was contrasted with the well publicized abusive environments of state hospitals for the mentally ill like the one in "Cuckoo's Nest".  Of course, like the storied Republican health care plan for all of us, none of that came to pass once the mentally ill were released to live among us in homeless camps and transient hotels across the country. So yeah, it's pretty broken.  I spent a lot of time mingling with these guys when I worked fire, and as they see it, it's not their problem.

As I said in qualifying my statement, these people are protesting "rightly or wrongly".

That doesn't make it any less a problem.

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15 minutes ago, donkpow said:

Where is the line drawn for mental health problems? Harvey Weinstein has mental health problems. Big ego people have mental health problems. The perpetual argument in that area is, "So what?"

...right now, it's drawn pretty much at what your insurance covers. After that, it becomes another kind of problem.

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

As far as I can tell, the laws are written in the State Capital, not this ER. 

Who are given LARGE sums of money and LOBBIED intensively by the doctors (AMA), the hospital owners, and the insurance companies.  The laws REFLECT that focused direction of intent - less stringent rules and regulation, larger potential for profits, fewer areas of liability, etc.. 

Again, I ain't saying this particular hospital has any real blame, but the focus of a protest around treatment for health related issues - especially in this specific case - seems fairly rational to include the hospital where one of the obvious "breaks" occurred.  Not because the doctors and nurses were "bad" people, but perhaps that the system in place failed the public by thinking releasing an obviously psychologically disturbed person back into the public space was a reasonable idea. 

Honestly, a protest in front of the State Capitol or similar probably gets little or no coverage anymore :(  And seems to have little or no impact. 

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7 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Honestly, a protest in front of the State Capitol or similar probably gets little or no coverage anymore :(  And seems to have little or no impact. 

This is understood which is why we are seeing demonstrations outside the private homes of public people and officials.

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29 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

perhaps that the system in place failed the public by thinking releasing an obviously psychologically disturbed person back into the public space was a reasonable idea. 

 

But if he’s no longer psychologically disturbed, because he’s not high, what would you want them to do? If he’s calm, not hallucinating, not delusional, not depressed, not suicidal, not aggressive or threatening. How long should he be held in a hospital, against his will, due to his potential to smoke PCP when he gets out? 

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49 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Who are given LARGE sums of money and LOBBIED intensively by the doctors (AMA), the hospital owners, and the insurance companies.  The laws REFLECT that focused direction of intent - less stringent rules and regulation, larger potential for profits, fewer areas of liability, etc.. 

Again, I ain't saying this particular hospital has any real blame, but the focus of a protest around treatment for health related issues - especially in this specific case - seems fairly rational to include the hospital where one of the obvious "breaks" occurred.  Not because the doctors and nurses were "bad" people, but perhaps that the system in place failed the public by thinking releasing an obviously psychologically disturbed person back into the public space was a reasonable idea. 

Honestly, a protest in front of the State Capitol or similar probably gets little or no coverage anymore :(  And seems to have little or no impact. 

You are making a huge assumption that the people demonstrating have any idea what the reality is.  I am in favor of protests to change opinion.  I am also in favor of individuals educating themselves of the facts and acting to change a bad reality and not a fake narrative.  I am not assuming that I know the facts in this case but then I'm not holding up a sign and traffic. 

 

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