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The E-bike Conundrum


Razors Edge
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Europe has a hard and fast rule for ebikes (EU limit of 25 km/h.).  The US has a less strict and pretty much laissez faire approach in 99% of the country.  As someone who sees ebikes on pretty much every ride, and occasionally sees the azzhattery and sometimes reckless behavior enabled by powerful ebikes, I do wonder what the evolving rules will be in the US.  At first, they were rare - so a bit of an annoyance as well as a curiosity - and now they are relatively common and steadily gaining market share, use, and capability. 

My feelings remain that they should remain relatively unregulated for road use and simply follow the traditional rules a moped has to follow.  I am not as solid in my feelings of how they should be regulated in off-road situations - especially MUTs and bike lanes and MTB trails - as they create a significant gap between traditional non-powered bikes and high-powered bikes.  I strongly support their value as commuter vehicles - one less car! - but the ease with which they go from great commuter to reckless rampager is a bit hard to accept.  Is it as simple as requiring explicit insurance for their operation?  Are they even covered under traditional insurance already - homeowners? Auto? Renters?

In any case, as ebikes continue to become cheaper, more common, and more powerful, where does this all go?  It can't maintain the current trajectory, but will it get killed off due to too much "freedom"?  Can technology save it from itself?

VanMoof is the latest e-bike maker that will remove software that allows its e-bikes to offer pedal-assisted power beyond the EU limit of 25 km/h. The option that cheats European speed limits will be removed on November 17th with an update to the VanMoof app that will be applied globally.

All of VanMoof’s new S3 and X3 e-bikes, regardless of country, are fitted with the same custom-built motor capable of 250W or 350W of continuous power and a 500W peak. A default region setting in the VanMoof app allows owners outside the US to select the faster and more powerful US limits even when located in Europe. In the US, e-bikes are generally capped at 32 km/h (20 mph).

“Over the past months we’ve had a number of cases in Germany of our riders being stopped by police for simply having the ability to exceed the 25km/h limit EU default setting by switching to the US country setting in our app,” says VanMoof co-founder Ties Carlier in a blog post. “We are making a change on November 17 to avoid any discussion on adherence to these laws.”

...

An argument can be made that 25 km/h is a reasonable top supported speed for e-bikes that must share narrow protected bike lanes with slower bicyclists riding traditional bikes in congested city centers like Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and Berlin. If the cap was raised to 32 km/h, many riders would take advantage of that and create an unsafe speed disparity in those bike lanes. But it’s harder to justify those slow speeds outside the city limits for people looking to replace cars for longer commutes, especially for those who ride on deserted bike paths or must ride on roadways alongside the very cars that Europe’s green initiatives are so eager to replace.

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1 minute ago, dennis said:

Regulation should be local or situational. In a high traffic metro area, speed limits are a good idea. We have them here in congested areas.

But in wide open spaces less so. I can ride from town to Signal Mtn and back, 60 miles and see a handful of other bikes.

I’m like Tom and somewhat mixed on the matter. Ultimately it will be situational and locally based as there are no national traffic regs.  Here are my thoughts stripped down:

On the roads & MUPS, if a moped isn’t allowed an Ebike shouldn’t be allowed.   Off road, if a motorcycle isn’t allowed an ebike shouldn't be allowed.  I am just seeing way too much dangerous behavior by the ass hats that I think you have to ban them in these situations even though it limits legitimate ebike users.

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I too am torn, and am  more along the thought process of Dennis.  On the MUPs here, 25 is pretty (too) fast, but on the open road it is not.

More importantly, what is being done to stop the liars from stealing all my KOMs on Strava!!

(I dont really have KOMs, I just hate being passed)

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8 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

I too am torn, and am  more along the thought process of Dennis.  On the MUPs here, 25 is pretty (too) fast, but on the open road it is not.

More importantly, what is being done to stop the liars from stealing all my KOMs on Strava!!

(I dont really have KOMs, I just hate being passed)

I posted this before but we often take Jack for evening walks along a local boardwalk on the beach. There is a 8 MPH limit for bikes.

Bikes, pedestrians & rollerskates/blades congest the boardwalk and people on bikes have sped on this boardwalk for ever.  But they go maybe 10-12 MPH, I mean how fast can a 1/2 drunk guy on a beach cruiser go?  But now we see teenagers/kids zooming between pedestrians at 18-20 mph on ebikes.  Jack almost got picked off by a kid on an ebike recently.

I’d like to see aggressive enforcement of the no motorized vehicles on this boardwalk and the kids on ebikes should be on the road.

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2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Europe has a hard and fast rule for ebikes (EU limit of 25 km/h.).  The US has a less strict and pretty much laissez faire approach in 99% of the country.  As someone who sees ebikes on pretty much every ride, and occasionally sees the azzhattery and sometimes reckless behavior enabled by powerful ebikes, I do wonder what the evolving rules will be in the US.  At first, they were rare - so a bit of an annoyance as well as a curiosity - and now they are relatively common and steadily gaining market share, use, and capability. 

My feelings remain that they should remain relatively unregulated for road use and simply follow the traditional rules a moped has to follow.  I am not as solid in my feelings of how they should be regulated in off-road situations - especially MUTs and bike lanes and MTB trails - as they create a significant gap between traditional non-powered bikes and high-powered bikes.  I strongly support their value as commuter vehicles - one less car! - but the ease with which they go from great commuter to reckless rampager is a bit hard to accept.  Is it as simple as requiring explicit insurance for their operation?  Are they even covered under traditional insurance already - homeowners? Auto? Renters?

In any case, as ebikes continue to become cheaper, more common, and more powerful, where does this all go?  It can't maintain the current trajectory, but will it get killed off due to too much "freedom"?  Can technology save it from itself?

VanMoof is the latest e-bike maker that will remove software that allows its e-bikes to offer pedal-assisted power beyond the EU limit of 25 km/h. The option that cheats European speed limits will be removed on November 17th with an update to the VanMoof app that will be applied globally.

All of VanMoof’s new S3 and X3 e-bikes, regardless of country, are fitted with the same custom-built motor capable of 250W or 350W of continuous power and a 500W peak. A default region setting in the VanMoof app allows owners outside the US to select the faster and more powerful US limits even when located in Europe. In the US, e-bikes are generally capped at 32 km/h (20 mph).

“Over the past months we’ve had a number of cases in Germany of our riders being stopped by police for simply having the ability to exceed the 25km/h limit EU default setting by switching to the US country setting in our app,” says VanMoof co-founder Ties Carlier in a blog post. “We are making a change on November 17 to avoid any discussion on adherence to these laws.”

...

An argument can be made that 25 km/h is a reasonable top supported speed for e-bikes that must share narrow protected bike lanes with slower bicyclists riding traditional bikes in congested city centers like Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and Berlin. If the cap was raised to 32 km/h, many riders would take advantage of that and create an unsafe speed disparity in those bike lanes. But it’s harder to justify those slow speeds outside the city limits for people looking to replace cars for longer commutes, especially for those who ride on deserted bike paths or must ride on roadways alongside the very cars that Europe’s green initiatives are so eager to replace.

25 kph is 15 mph.  15 mph is the legal max. on Maryland's designated bike trails as well as no headphones covering both ears.  Few of us om regular bikes pay attention to the speed limit - especially on downhills - and, since it hasn't resulted in significant injuries, no one enforces it.

There are a few downhills on the BWI Airport Trail and the Baltimore - Annapolis Bike Trail where I've approached 30 mph on a mountain bike, but only in places where there's a very clear view of the next quarter mile ahead and there are no entrances on the side of the trail - I'll go slow if there are people walking where I'd like to go fast.

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8 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Europe has a hard and fast rule for ebikes (EU limit of 25 km/h.).  The US has a less strict and pretty much laissez faire approach in 99% of the country.  As someone who sees ebikes on pretty much every ride, and occasionally sees the azzhattery and sometimes reckless behavior enabled by powerful ebikes, I do wonder what the evolving rules will be in the US.  At first, they were rare - so a bit of an annoyance as well as a curiosity - and now they are relatively common and steadily gaining market share, use, and capability. 

My feelings remain that they should remain relatively unregulated for road use and simply follow the traditional rules a moped has to follow.  I am not as solid in my feelings of how they should be regulated in off-road situations - especially MUTs and bike lanes and MTB trails - as they create a significant gap between traditional non-powered bikes and high-powered bikes.  I strongly support their value as commuter vehicles - one less car! - but the ease with which they go from great commuter to reckless rampager is a bit hard to accept.  Is it as simple as requiring explicit insurance for their operation?  Are they even covered under traditional insurance already - homeowners? Auto? Renters?

In any case, as ebikes continue to become cheaper, more common, and more powerful, where does this all go?  It can't maintain the current trajectory, but will it get killed off due to too much "freedom"?  Can technology save it from itself?

VanMoof is the latest e-bike maker that will remove software that allows its e-bikes to offer pedal-assisted power beyond the EU limit of 25 km/h. The option that cheats European speed limits will be removed on November 17th with an update to the VanMoof app that will be applied globally.

All of VanMoof’s new S3 and X3 e-bikes, regardless of country, are fitted with the same custom-built motor capable of 250W or 350W of continuous power and a 500W peak. A default region setting in the VanMoof app allows owners outside the US to select the faster and more powerful US limits even when located in Europe. In the US, e-bikes are generally capped at 32 km/h (20 mph).

“Over the past months we’ve had a number of cases in Germany of our riders being stopped by police for simply having the ability to exceed the 25km/h limit EU default setting by switching to the US country setting in our app,” says VanMoof co-founder Ties Carlier in a blog post. “We are making a change on November 17 to avoid any discussion on adherence to these laws.”

...

An argument can be made that 25 km/h is a reasonable top supported speed for e-bikes that must share narrow protected bike lanes with slower bicyclists riding traditional bikes in congested city centers like Amsterdam, Copenhagen, and Berlin. If the cap was raised to 32 km/h, many riders would take advantage of that and create an unsafe speed disparity in those bike lanes. But it’s harder to justify those slow speeds outside the city limits for people looking to replace cars for longer commutes, especially for those who ride on deserted bike paths or must ride on roadways alongside the very cars that Europe’s green initiatives are so eager to replace.

This really is a tough one, but I would agree if an e-bike rider wants to go faster than 25 km./hr., then it must be road.  

Some cities have bike routes that are genuinely busy many hrs. of daylight.  ie. in Vancouver ..like the bike counter will clock in 3,000 rides in an area during the 12 hr. time period or even higher, 4,000+ rides. Having an ebike in those areas makes no sense. Achieves nothing for the rider because the rider should focus on dealing with cycling congestion.  We do have automated big sign sensor as you approach...warning at 20 km./hr. and the bylaw officers will have their radar speed guns out.  I watched a guy stake himself along the path...  This is in an area that's popular and often with many cyclists and pedestrians of all ages.

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On 11/13/2020 at 7:46 PM, shootingstar said:

This really is a tough one, but I would agree if an e-bike rider wants to go faster than 25 km./hr., then it must be road.  

 

On 11/13/2020 at 2:17 PM, MickinMD said:

25 kph is 15 mph.  15 mph is the legal max. on Maryland's designated bike trails as well as no headphones covering both ears. 

 

On 11/13/2020 at 12:18 PM, dennis said:

Regulation should be local or situational. In a high traffic metro area, speed limits are a good idea. We have them here in congested areas.

But in wide open spaces less so. I can ride from town to Signal Mtn and back, 60 miles and see a handful of other bikes.

All these point to how frustrating it is to try and sort it out and integrate ebikes into what was a "simple" motor/engine or no motor/engine rule.  Now, it's a balance of expanding the non-automobile commuting base while protecting the folks who have been doing it the "old-fashioned way" for years from the new electric power crowd.  Expanding to include the new folks likely expands the bargaining power for upgrade and maintenance dollars, but at the same time, you gotta be careful what you wish for. 

To me, I worry about both over-reaction and over-regulation - both due to general laziness on finding a solution, and a "least common denominator" approach.  I've ridden for many years, and feel like I do well balancing when I can be aggressive vs cautious on the bike.  I see regularly, though, that "aggressive" and "selfish" are likely the more likely position of most folks and then add in many folks with their ignorance and self-absorbed attitudes and it becomes a mess.

Speed limits are not a solution - or are a very limited solution.  A 15mph speed limit is a throw the baby out with the bath water idea.  We'd be better served by just banning the e-bikes on MUTs or off-road areas and remaining in our pre-electric days. Likewise, pretending "no headphones covering both ears" concept would work is sadly missed by miles already.  With wireless ear buds, I'd say 90% of joggers and 25+% of casual cyclists are wearing BOTH ear buds while exercising.  A bell or warning is pretty much useless around them :(  but the "solution" - to their ignorance and/or selfishness - often becomes "let's limit the cyclists", which is patently unfair.  But add in the speed of ebikes, escooters, and other electric doodads, and the water gets muddied some more, because now the idiocy is at both ends when the jerky electric guy and the selfish earbud gal start clogging the path, the "regular" walker, jogger, cyclist, rollerblader, etc get squeezed.

It seems two dynamics have been introduced to the mix in the past decade or so that have upset the apple cart, and also are unlikely to go away.  Smart phones with earbuds and electric bikes/scooters/etc take what was a simple and relatively worked out relationship between walkers, hikers, cyclists, horses, and other "manual" users and made it so things are more complicated and potentially dangerous than ever before.  It's already gotten ugly on the roads - for cars, bikes, and pedestrians - due to smartphones and texting and distractions in general, but e-bikes have now brought a level of speed, stealth, and potential for recklessness to areas which were previously relatively balanced or, at least, stable in the interactions between the different modes.

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20 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

 

 

All these point to how frustrating it is to try and sort it out and integrate ebikes into what was a "simple" motor/engine or no motor/engine rule.  Now, it's a balance of expanding the non-automobile commuting base while protecting the folks who have been doing it the "old-fashioned way" for years from the new electric power crowd.  Expanding to include the new folks likely expands the bargaining power for upgrade and maintenance dollars, but at the same time, you gotta be careful what you wish for. 

To me, I worry about both over-reaction and over-regulation - both due to general laziness on finding a solution, and a "least common denominator" approach.  I've ridden for many years, and feel like I do well balancing when I can be aggressive vs cautious on the bike.  I see regularly, though, that "aggressive" and "selfish" are likely the more likely position of most folks and then add in many folks with their ignorance and self-absorbed attitudes and it becomes a mess.

Speed limits are not a solution - or are a very limited solution.  A 15mph speed limit is a throw the baby out with the bath water idea.  We'd be better served by just banning the e-bikes on MUTs or off-road areas and remaining in our pre-electric days. Likewise, pretending "no headphones covering both ears" concept would work is sadly missed by miles already.  With wireless ear buds, I'd say 90% of joggers and 25+% of casual cyclists are wearing BOTH ear buds while exercising.  A bell or warning is pretty much useless around them :(  but the "solution" - to their ignorance and/or selfishness - often becomes "let's limit the cyclists", which is patently unfair.  But add in the speed of ebikes, escooters, and other electric doodads, and the water gets muddied some more, because now the idiocy is at both ends when the jerky electric guy and the selfish earbud gal start clogging the path, the "regular" walker, jogger, cyclist, rollerblader, etc get squeezed.

It seems two dynamics have been introduced to the mix in the past decade or so that have upset the apple cart, and also are unlikely to go away.  Smart phones with earbuds and electric bikes/scooters/etc take what was a simple and relatively worked out relationship between walkers, hikers, cyclists, horses, and other "manual" users and made it so things are more complicated and potentially dangerous than ever before.  It's already gotten ugly on the roads - for cars, bikes, and pedestrians - due to smartphones and texting and distractions in general, but e-bikes have now brought a level of speed, stealth, and potential for recklessness to areas which were previously relatively balanced or, at least, stable in the interactions between the different modes.

Why don't you give it some thought and sort it out for us? Say like by Friday. M-kay?

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Just now, Kzoo said:

That's discrimination and you can't do that.

It will be complicated and likely centered solely around Mr Pow's birthdate.  Only folks with his specific date of birth will be discriminated against, and hopefully they will lie down and take one for the team!

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I'm glad people are riding; e-bike or not. The people who are a menace on an e-bike would be a menace on a conventional bike....just slower about it. There is one stretch of trail in our city where bike/people/dog congestion is an issue some days. So far e-bikes have not compouded the issue in any significant way. I have a feeling next year will be more telling. 

We have a lot of rural county roads around here where 20 mph would be a more reasonable cap for many people. Many of my routes, I may see 1 or 2 other riders when I am out. A busy day this summer, I saw 6!

 

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5 minutes ago, groupw said:

I'm glad people are riding; e-bike or not. The people who are a menace on an e-bike would be a menace on a conventional bike

What I am seeing is that ebikes are NEW folks (either completely new or returning from not riding at all), which means, to me, that without the ebike, they would not be on a conventional bike, so not a menace to the rest of us (but maybe raging on a road in a car?).

An ebike on the ROAD, though, is 100% legit to me.  I can think of no better place for an ebike to be used at higher speeds (20mph or 28mph). 

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12 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

What I am seeing is that ebikes are NEW folks (either completely new or returning from not riding at all), which means, to me, that without the ebike, they would not be on a conventional bike, so not a menace to the rest of us (but maybe raging on a road in a car?).

An ebike on the ROAD, though, is 100% legit to me.  I can think of no better place for an ebike to be used at higher speeds (20mph or 28mph). 

No argument. The biggest challenge I'm seeing on the streets and roads it they need to understand they are a vehicle and not a pedestrian and use the rules of the road accordingly. Way too many people my age and older riding on the wrong side of the road. Our mayor is an ally on the trail system. He wants to help us grow the system. I've also visited with him about the challenges of commuting around the city and shared this problem. I explained we need law enforcement help or else I am just a grumpy yelling at people on bikes. He gets it, but is having trouble getting buy-in from officers. They feel they have more important things to do than correct bicyclists. 

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10 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

 

 

All these point to how frustrating it is to try and sort it out and integrate ebikes into what was a "simple" motor/engine or no motor/engine rule.  Now, it's a balance of expanding the non-automobile commuting base while protecting the folks who have been doing it the "old-fashioned way" for years from the new electric power crowd.  Expanding to include the new folks likely expands the bargaining power for upgrade and maintenance dollars, but at the same time, you gotta be careful what you wish for. 

To me, I worry about both over-reaction and over-regulation - both due to general laziness on finding a solution, and a "least common denominator" approach.  I've ridden for many years, and feel like I do well balancing when I can be aggressive vs cautious on the bike.  I see regularly, though, that "aggressive" and "selfish" are likely the more likely position of most folks and then add in many folks with their ignorance and self-absorbed attitudes and it becomes a mess.

Speed limits are not a solution - or are a very limited solution.  A 15mph speed limit is a throw the baby out with the bath water idea.  We'd be better served by just banning the e-bikes on MUTs or off-road areas and remaining in our pre-electric days. Likewise, pretending "no headphones covering both ears" concept would work is sadly missed by miles already.  With wireless ear buds, I'd say 90% of joggers and 25+% of casual cyclists are wearing BOTH ear buds while exercising.  A bell or warning is pretty much useless around them :(  but the "solution" - to their ignorance and/or selfishness - often becomes "let's limit the cyclists", which is patently unfair.  But add in the speed of ebikes, escooters, and other electric doodads, and the water gets muddied some more, because now the idiocy is at both ends when the jerky electric guy and the selfish earbud gal start clogging the path, the "regular" walker, jogger, cyclist, rollerblader, etc get squeezed.

It seems two dynamics have been introduced to the mix in the past decade or so that have upset the apple cart, and also are unlikely to go away.  Smart phones with earbuds and electric bikes/scooters/etc take what was a simple and relatively worked out relationship between walkers, hikers, cyclists, horses, and other "manual" users and made it so things are more complicated and potentially dangerous than ever before.  It's already gotten ugly on the roads - for cars, bikes, and pedestrians - due to smartphones and texting and distractions in general, but e-bikes have now brought a level of speed, stealth, and potential for recklessness to areas which were previously relatively balanced or, at least, stable in the interactions between the different modes.

Could you write this up as a manifesto please? Send it to the NYT. 

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13 hours ago, dennis said:

Could you write this up as a manifesto please? Send it to the NYT. 

Folks in NYC don't want to hear my problems!  Hell, I can't imagine the letters they get about LOCAL bike lanes, traffic calming, and road diets. "We love our gridlock! Those bikes should have to ride on the sidewalk where they belong!"

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Last night we almost picked off a woman on an Ebike. Riding on the sidewalk in a residential area going about 15 mph and cuts across the street so she can bypass a light & make a left turn continuing on the sidewalk now going against traffic.   My wife was making a right turn onto the street as she left the sidewalk to cut across and the closing speeds were incredibly fast.

We stopped, she continued on...  Had we not stopped she would have been toast..

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44 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Folks in NYC don't want to hear my problems!  Hell, I can't imagine the letters they get about LOCAL bike lanes, traffic calming, and road diets. "We love our gridlock! Those bikes should have to ride on the sidewalk where they belong!"

You do realize the Times is read beyond NYC? Even in rural WY, we get it. I was thinking of a manifesto like this guy wrote.

Archive of Unabomber’s letters detailed in report - NY Daily News

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12 minutes ago, dennis said:

You do realize the Times is read beyond NYC? Even in rural WY, we get it. I was thinking of a manifesto like this guy wrote.

:D

I think, though, you're quite a few steps closer to Lincoln, Montana, and lead a bit closer of the Ted Kaczynski life than a suburban Eastern guy like me :)

...and, own an ebike :whistle:

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44 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

lead a bit closer of the Ted Kaczynski life

" Kaczynski responded to the Harvard Alumni Association's directory inquiry for the fiftieth reunion of the class of 1962; he listed his occupation as "prisoner" and his eight life sentences as "awards"." :lol:

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4 minutes ago, donkpow said:

" Kaczynski responded to the Harvard Alumni Association's directory inquiry for the fiftieth reunion of the class of 1962; he listed his occupation as "prisoner" and his eight life sentences as "awards"." :lol:

That is FUNNY.  I think one of my uncles was class of 63 (he was born in 1941 I think), so I might ask him about Ted :)  Back then, maybe folks all knew each other? Or knew most folks plus all the weird ones?

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9 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

That is FUNNY.  I think one of my uncles was class of 63 (he was born in 1941 I think), so I might ask him about Ted :)  Back then, maybe folks all knew each other? Or knew most folks plus all the weird ones?

I'm thinking most Harvard criminal types were involved in white collar crimes. I wonder if they had their own social club?

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5 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

:D

I think, though, you're quite a few steps closer to Lincoln, Montana, and lead a bit closer of the Ted Kaczynski life than a suburban Eastern guy like me :)

...and, own an ebike :whistle:

No e-bike here. I did borrow one once and used it in a race just so I could crush everyone's spirit. It worked.

 

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