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Wheelbase / Toe Overlap


Square Wheels
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When I took the Madone on a test ride, I needed to take a hard left out of the parking lot.  I thought someone hit me, or the wheel got stuck in a rut as I could not turn.  Then I realized my toe hit the wheel.  I've never had that issue; I almost trashed an awfully expensive bike.

Before I took the Domane out, I tested it.  Similar issue.

Last night I tested the (current / old) Domane, the toes barely touch the tire, just the very tip.

So, I looked up their wheelbases.

Madone - 98.1
Domane (new) - 101.0
Roubaix (my original bike) - 100
Domain (current) - 100.3

The Madone is lot shorter, but I also had the same issue with the new Domane.

Aside from learning the hard way (tipping over) how quickly will I adjust to this issue?

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Both of my cross bikes had/have toe overlap.  It takes some getting used to and you learn to not pedal or keep your foot out of the way when making hard turns.  

But remember it’s only an issue at slow speeds when making sharp turns.  You would never turn your bars that far riding more than 10 MPH

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This is not only a big foot issue.  My feet are a men's 7, and there is overlap on the CruX

 Normal operations, I rarely strike it.  The only time it happens is when you are crawling along maybe on a steep.  Very few times, and it never has tipped me over. Usually riders are not turning at that extreme of an angle.

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9 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

This^^  My side 48 (13 in US) feet have never hit my wheel.    Maybe they could hit the wheel, I don't know, that's never happened.

Yeah - I think that's my situation.  Maybe they could hit, but either I instinctively avoid it or something else plays a part.

Keep in mind, large feet really wouldn't matter too much as most pedals are set under the ball of the foot, so the difference between DH size 7 and you size 13 will only be a fraction of an inch? Maybe 1/2 an inch?  But then you would likely have a slightly larger frame pushing the headset a little farther away from the BB and that would give the front wheel a little more room. But then subtract a bit for maybe a 175 crank vs a 170 crank and you start getting closer to the front wheel again. 

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14 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Yeah - I think that's my situation.  Maybe they could hit, but either I instinctively avoid it or something else plays a part.

Keep in mind, large feet really wouldn't matter too much as most pedals are set under the ball of the foot, so the difference between DH size 7 and you size 13 will only be a fraction of an inch? Maybe 1/2 an inch?  But then you would likely have a slightly larger frame pushing the headset a little farther away from the BB and that would give the front wheel a little more room. But then subtract a bit for maybe a 175 crank vs a 170 crank and you start getting closer to the front wheel again. 

I have actually never heard of this being an issue on a road bike.  I think your point makes sense but it’s more about shorter top tubes, head tube angle & fork rake.  

Generally “fast handling” bikes like a cross bike and the “crit bikes” that were popular back in the day had this issue.  I had never once experienced it or heard of it being an issue on a road bike.  If I had a size 14 foot I still wouldn’t have toe overlap on my Bianchi. It’s Long low & slack...

Hey @Square Wheels, did you have clipless pedals & shoes on for the test ride?  If you didn’t, maybe your foot was just too far forward on a flat pedal?

Edit: On Both of my cross bikes the toe overlap was so much that it doesn’t surprise me DH has the issue on her Crux.  If I went to a 170 or even 168 crank and had size 7 feet I think my toe would still strike the wheel.  The wheel hits my shoe pretty close to the pedal so about 1/3 of my shoe...

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8 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Keep in mind, large feet really wouldn't matter too much as most pedals are set under the ball of the foot, so the difference between DH size 7 and you size 13 will only be a fraction of an inch? Maybe 1/2 an inch?

yeah... I forgot about that... 

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Ok, here goes:

What you are experiencing is a function of anatomy meets geometry.  In almost all bikes, it will only be a factor on slow starts or the tightest and slowest turn around in a 3 foot radius, and there really aren't any real-world situations this will flare up otherwise.  It isn't really solely a function of wheelbase, either, that is just a portion of it.

If you look at bikes designed around the old 73/73 angles and go shorter wheelbase (like an American race bike), it'll happen.  If you look at bikes like the Cervelo Caledonia where your head tube angle is going to be 71.5 or 72 and it is a more relaxed (endurance) geometry, then you won't have it.  You could look at that bike, too, btw, I have something similar.

I wouldn't let a little overlap be a buy/not buy factor.  I must admit, it is nice not to have any overlap, though.

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I had knee strike on my mountain bike one time. I never knew this was possible. I was riding out to the Wilhelm trail when my wife called. She was on her way home and wanted me to go with her somewhere. While talking on the phone I made a u-turn to go back home (not recommended while talking on phone and riding one handed.) My knee struck the front tire (knobby) I had my hand full getting the bike back under control. I had one heck of a knobby rash on the inside of my knee. The next week I made my first DC to Pittsburgh ride. During one day it rained all day and I was going to visit a friend in Confluence. When I got to her house and knocked at her door the first thing she noticed was blood running down my leg. The scab had come off and the rain kept it from forming a new one. I hadn’t noticed it. A knee strike is much worse than a toe strike.

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27 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Ok, here goes:

What you are experiencing is a function of anatomy meets geometry.  In almost all bikes, it will only be a factor on slow starts or the tightest and slowest turn around in a 3 foot radius, and there really aren't any real-world situations this will flare up otherwise.  It isn't really solely a function of wheelbase, either, that is just a portion of it.

If you look at bikes designed around the old 73/73 angles and go shorter wheelbase (like an American race bike), it'll happen.  If you look at bikes like the Cervelo Caledonia where your head tube angle is going to be 71.5 or 72 and it is a more relaxed (endurance) geometry, then you won't have it.  You could look at that bike, too, btw, I have something similar.

I wouldn't let a little overlap be a buy/not buy factor.  I must admit, it is nice not to have any overlap, though.

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6 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

I had knee strike on my mountain bike one time. I never knew this was possible. I was riding out to the Wilhelm trail when my wife called. She was on her way home and wanted me to go with her somewhere. While talking on the phone I made a u-turn to go back home (not recommended while talking on phone and riding one handed.) My knee struck the front tire (knobby) I had my hand full getting the bike back under control. I had one heck of a knobby rash on the inside of my knee. The next week I made my first DC to Pittsburgh ride. During one day it rained all day and I was going to visit a friend in Confluence. When I got to her house and knocked at her door the first thing she noticed was blood running down my leg. The scab had come off and the rain kept it from forming a new one. I hadn’t noticed it. A knee strike is much worse than a toe strike.

I hit my knee on the headset before.  It happened going through the bumbs and hitting air.  Bike got a little out of control.  

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Just now, Dirtyhip said:

I hit my knee on the headset before.  It happened going through the bumbs and hitting air.  Bike got a little out of control.  

Yeah this in a hard sprint one time.  Square on the kneecap.

9 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

I had knee strike on my mountain bike one time. I never knew this was possible. I was riding out to the Wilhelm trail when my wife called. She was on her way home and wanted me to go with her somewhere. While talking on the phone I made a u-turn to go back home (not recommended while talking on phone and riding one handed.) My knee struck the front tire (knobby) I had my hand full getting the bike back under control. I had one heck of a knobby rash on the inside of my knee. The next week I made my first DC to Pittsburgh ride. During one day it rained all day and I was going to visit a friend in Confluence. When I got to her house and knocked at her door the first thing she noticed was blood running down my leg. The scab had come off and the rain kept it from forming a new one. I hadn’t noticed it. A knee strike is much worse than a toe strike.

Dang that’s nasty!  

When I was still racing cross I was doing some drills with dismounting & remounting.  After a while I was getting a little tired and my ankle caught the tire on a remount and the tire burned a strip of skin off.  After the ride I was putting my bike up on the car rack and the piece of skin was dangling off the rear cantilever brake!  

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