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To put it in a historical perspective, it didn't even happen during the Civil War, but the last time there was an an assault on the US Capitol was 1814!

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Trump said to Nixon: “hold my beer”

Remember when Dicky said "I am not a crook " I can picture someone going out saying "I am not batshit crazy"

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Just now, Tizeye said:

To put it in a historical perspective, it didn't even happen during the Civil War, but the last time there was an an assault on the US Capitol was 1814!

British_Burning_Washington.jpg

My brother and I were talking about that last night.  Treason is the word he used.

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2 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

It looks like some of the Capitol Police assisted the entry. And I’ve seen a Ohio Senator state some police were posing with the invaders for selfies, inside the Capitol.

 

Watch the video again.  Try to stop it often in sort of a frame by frame. At the 3 second mark pay particular attention to the man just to the left of the bicycle gate.  He is wearing a dark stocking cap with a white rectangle on the front.  He is also wearing sneakers and his jacket is just a slightly lighter shade of blue than the uniforms.  Is that his hand moving the gate?  Snops has fact checked this video and after frame by frame they cannot confirm that the police did it.

IMO social media is sometimes made up.  Often it's to fit a particular narative.

I have seen pictures of one capitol policeman in a "selfie".

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11 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

Yep.  I agree that the planning doesn't seem to have looked toward all the possibilities with enough attention.  I can understand however that on one hand one doesn't want to country to look like an armed 3rd world camp.  Bicycle barriers however will only stop a crowd that's willing to be stopped.  Stopping a crowd that's determined however requires a level of violence that would have really tarnished the days activities.

As it is, we had an embarrassing moment that has been relatively quickly been shut down with a minimum of violence and a capitol building left unburned and mostly undamaged.  Nowhere near the level of violence we viewed last summer.

 

My feeling is that we've seen over-reactions to protests in the past - mainly around black folks - and it would be both hypocritical and a mistake to look for more overwhelming force to become the norm in protest situations - even ones like this that turn into mob rule.  The real work needs to begin immediately after the threats are neutralized, limited, or generally contained, and that's rounding up the the folks LEADING the mayhem and ACTIVELY being a part of physical altercations, important property destruction, and other dangerous behavior.  IOW, in a situation where there is a crowd of many protesters, there is a subset that are also rioters - and in this case insurrectionists and seditionists.  That smaller group is really where 99.99% of the effort for law enforcement should focus - from the traitors causing mayhem up to their traitorous leaders in the background and on social media.  You bring them to justice - up to and including the recently reintroduced use of federal capital punishment. How ironic that would be, eh?

This fish is rotting from the head. 

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38 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

in this case insurrectionists and seditionists. 

The term "anarchists" was passed around last night.

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3 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

It looks like some of the Capitol Police assisted the entry. And I’ve seen a Ohio Senator state some police were posing with the invaders for selfies, inside the Capitol.

 

It looks like it was a lost cause at that point ... Sure they opened the gates, so the hoard in front of the officers could join the hoard already on the grounds...

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3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

I have seen pictures of one capitol policeman in a "selfie".

I haven’t seen any, my comment was that a Ohio congressman reported that. 

 

2 hours ago, ChrisL said:

It looks like it was a lost cause at that point ... Sure they opened the gates, so the hoard in front of the officers could join the hoard already on the grounds...

So why open the gates? I can understand if all hope is lost to abandon the position and regroup elsewhere. But there’s no urgency to retreat/regroup, they just open the gates and stroll away. Or alternatively stated, the gates are opened by someone, without resistance from the Police, and the Police just walk away casually.

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20 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

IMO social media is sometimes made up.  Often it's to fit a particular narative.

If the narrative is that some of the Police were way too casual in dealing with the insurgents, it may be correct.

 

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1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

If the narrative is that some of the Police were way too casual in dealing with the insurgents, it may be correct.

 

I've seen additional views of the selfie police that I had not seen before.  Some of them may indeed lose their jobs over the selfie actions.  However the videos of the storming of the gates are far less conclusive.  As of this morning we know that at least one policeman lost his life after actions defending the gates.  There are several videos of the police defending the gates.  There were far too few of them to prevent the assault.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

There are several videos of the police defending the gates.  There were far too few of them to prevent the assault.

Oh I agree 100% that some Police were fully engaged. I believe one died, and others injured. Which is why I find the casual nature of those in these video clips I posted as so disturbing. And then there is the discrepancy in images between Wednesday and this summer.

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21 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Oh I agree 100% that some Police were fully engaged. I believe one died, and others injured. Which is why I find the casual nature of those in these video clips I posted as so disturbing. And then there is the discrepancy in images between Wednesday and this summer.

This is why I object to a broad brush attack on the ability of those Capitol Police who were at the gates defending while being attacked at 100 to 1 odds.  Most, almost all did their jobs yet social media pulls the usual schtick bs with short edited videos, some of which can't even withstand real study.

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22 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:
46 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Oh I agree 100% that some Police were fully engaged. I believe one died, and others injured. Which is why I find the casual nature of those in these video clips I posted as so disturbing. And then there is the discrepancy in images between Wednesday and this summer.

This is why I object to a broad brush attack on the ability of those Capitol Police who were at the gates defending while being attacked at 100 to 1 odds.  Most, almost all did their jobs yet social media pulls the usual schtick bs with short edited videos, some of which can't even withstand real study.

Add to that a few things like the police SHOULD be de-escalating things when they can and not ESCALATING.  Remaining relatively engaged and calm when dealing with a protest group (not the parts that were already in mob and rioting mode), likely saves their lives and folks in the general area.  Once the gunfire erupts, stuff goes downhill fast.  Second, a "fog of war" likely existed where the folks in one area of the Capitol had no idea what was the status in other areas, so keeping their small area from devolving to a 10 vs 1 or 100 vs 1 melee - through taking selfies or moving aside can make sense.  PROPERTY can be replaced. PEOPLE - including the cops and innocent folks just watching or nearby.

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44 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Second, a "fog of war" likely existed where the folks in one area of the Capitol had no idea what was the status in other areas, so keeping their small area from devolving to a 10 vs 1 or 100 vs 1 melee - through taking selfies or moving aside can make sense. 

I’m going to disagree related to the video that I posted this morning. This is far too friendly by some and far too casual for the others in the lobby of the Capitol after an assault on the building has occurred. Too many invaders present to push they out? Sure, retreat to more defensive positions. But this isn’t Community Policing, the opportunity for socializing should have ended even before these people came in the door.

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While shocking, some Canadians aren't totally surprised, given the  increased polarization in the U.S. for past 4 years. Remember we did have a shooting on grounds of Parliament Hill in Ottawa just a few years ago which was reported worldwide. It was a loner but again someone not thinking logically and peacefully.

In Toronto, there were a bunch of pro-Trump supporters out on the street downtown just after the Capitol invasion.

1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I’m going to disagree related to the video that I posted this morning. This is far too friendly by some and far too casual for the others in the lobby of the Capitol after an assault on the building has occurred. Too many invaders present to push they out? Sure, retreat to more defensive positions. But this isn’t Community Policing, the opportunity for socializing should have ended even before these people came in the door.

I agree.    

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Yep,  They could have gone full auto and shot about a hundred or so.

 

 

Is there really an argument going on about too little police force used on a riot?  As it is there was one shot and killed at a very clearly defined "beyond here there are lives in danger" door.  We could justify the shooting of the guy with the fire extinguisher who struck the blow that ultimately killed one of the police...........but the whole crowd????  

There simply weren't enough police present to prevent the incursion.  It's the why that happened that's important.

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10 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Yep,  They could have gone full auto and shot about a hundred or so.

 

 

Is there really an argument going on about too little police force used on a riot?  As it is there was one shot and killed at a very clearly defined "beyond here there are lives in danger" door.  We could justify the shooting of the guy with the fire extinguisher who struck the blow that ultimately killed one of the police...........but the whole crowd????  

There simply weren't enough police present to prevent the incursion.  It's the why that happened that's important.

I respect everyone’s opinion here but I struggle with some of the comments too.   But I believe the argument is those officers in the video and other Capitol Police were complicit in the take over.

I reserve judgement until more facts are brought to light. None of us were there and snippets of video over an hours long event can easily be taken out of context.  Or maybe not, maybe they were complicit.  We just don’t know...

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8 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I respect everyone’s opinion here but I struggle with some of the comments too.   But I believe the argument is those officers in the video and other Capitol Police were complicit in the take over.

I reserve judgement until more facts are brought to light. None of us were there and snippets of video over an hours long event can easily be taken out of context.  Or maybe not, maybe they were complicit.  We just don’t know...

Substitute the word "some" for the capitol police and I'd buy it but there are also videos of the police attempting to maintain a barrier and getting rolled over while trying to save a couple of their own from the crowd.  I can't condemn the capitol police as a whole or even most given that they were put out there as a show force without backup.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

 

Is there really an argument going on about too little police force used on a riot?  As it is there was one shot and killed at a very clearly defined "beyond here there are lives in danger" door.  We could justify the shooting of the guy with the fire extinguisher who struck the blow that ultimately killed one of the police...........but the whole crowd????  

I’m not sure if this is a reaction to my comment or a reaction to the news/social media as a whole? Because I’ve been very care to identify my concerns about some, one or a few Police officers. No, I don’t want them to shoot at all of the insurgents, but I also don’t want them milling around with them in what looks to be a very relaxed and jovial atmosphere inside the Capitol building. I think it’s a bad look and can understand why people are critical of it. And criticizing that does not take away from criticism of the level of preparedness the Capital and DC police and DC mayor showed, and especially the rally organizers and speakers.

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Compare Egypt and the shooting of protesters to ours milling around and leaving after a bit vandalism.  Which looks better to you.  Neither is good but there is a worst of the two to consider.

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13 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Compare Egypt and the shooting of protesters to ours milling around and leaving after a bit vandalism.  Which looks better to you.  Neither is good but there is a worst of the two to consider.

I’ll chose neither. Obviously I don’t want undisciplined shooting. But I don’t want undisciplined fraternization or inattentiveness at a murder and riot scene. This is an uncontrolled, active crime scene with criminals all around. Some who are even draping their arms around police, others walking behind them. There can be a middle ground, and a criticism of both extremes.

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Wapo has a short video of Ashley babbit being shot. There are a couple unarmed "kids" at the door. They look scared as sheot. They move away, the protesters are banging on the glass doors & babbit sticks her head in. as she goes down armed Tactical police are taking care of her. My inference is the Tactical police were trying to replace the kids as the crowd was getting worked up. Before she gets shot you can clearly see an arm & pistol at the side of the inside door. I'll attach but you may need a subscription to watch

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/investigations/video-shows-moments-leading-up-to-fatal-capitol-shooting-on-jan-6/2021/01/08/b7bd8f45-1250-463e-b73f-d218b39e7ed0_video.html

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If there was ever a time and place to get all shooty, this was it.  Deranged assholes break in, you break out the firearms and start blazing, end of story.   ALL those dumbshits should be locked up for the rest of their dim little lives, lucky as they are to be alive.  Morans break in, shoot to fucking kill, all of 'em.  Stand your fucking ground.

How is that for some logical thought?

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I agree with the cops not meeting the crowd with a lot of force.  Clearly, they were far outnumbered, and just as clearly, a good number of the protesters were probably armed.

The casually milling around group - I don't know the circumstances.  I didn't see a lot of effort to clear the capitol or arrest anyone, but I wasn't there, only saw video clips.

But the selfie participants must be fired.  That's a terrible dereliction of duty, and actively so.

factor in of course, given the support for Trump among cops, I can easily accept that some were rather compliant.

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6 hours ago, Randomguy said:

If there was ever a time and place to get all shooty, this was it.  Deranged assholes break in, you break out the firearms and start blazing, end of story.   ALL those dumbshits should be locked up for the rest of their dim little lives, lucky as they are to be alive.  Morans break in, shoot to fucking kill, all of 'em.  Stand your fucking ground.

How is that for some logical thought?

Poor.  It's little different from those wearing sheets wanting to unload on a BLM protest.  Different attitudes, different targets.  All day in forum after forum I've been listening to folks to just wanted to see the crowd gunned down.  I'm getting a bit pissed at society in general.

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21 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Poor.  It's little different from those wearing sheets wanting to unload on a BLM protest.  Different attitudes, different targets.  All day in forum after forum I've been listening to folks to just wanted to see the crowd gunned down.  I'm getting a bit pissed at society in general.

I am amazed at the restraint they showed. 

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56 minutes ago, Philander Seabury said:

I am amazed at the restraint they showed. 

How about the Police outside the Speaker’s Chamber in the WaPo video, cooly standing in front of the crowd to block the doors, until it was time they had to GTFO. 
 

It is scary to think what the invaders were going to do with their handcuffs should they have encountered a Congressman or Congresswoman who they opposed. 

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4 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

Poor.  It's little different from those wearing sheets wanting to unload on a BLM protest.  Different attitudes, different targets.  All day in forum after forum I've been listening to folks to just wanted to see the crowd gunned down.  I'm getting a bit pissed at society in general.

While they did show restraint (or outright favoritism), I wouldn’t have blamed them one bit if they had gunned down the rioters.  
 

Trump’s most fervent supporters are indisputably unhinged, especially after the whole MI thing where kidnapping/killing were pretty much planned for.  They think it is playtime, and the government protectors are coddling the mentally 4-year olds with no impulse control and Trump and enablers egging them on. 
 

I am concerned that messages taken are seen as “I can do whatever I want and break in wherever I want because my stupid ideas are right in my head”.  The highest leadership was right there and threatened with armed lunatics physically attacking and overwhelming personnel ostensibly there to protect our country’s  leadership.  I take this as an attack on the country.  Attacks on the country are to be stomped down hard, harder, and hardest so that the next group of dumbshits has to think several times before doing something like that again. 
 

While admirable (and more than a bit wussyish) that every rioter was not summarily gassed and/or shot for treasonably attacking the USA in the damn capitol building, I suspect that the light treatment will just further embolden the idiots. 
 

Anyway, this is serious stuff, especially after MI, so you have to have much better security going forward.   Threats are clearly internal and external and have to be planned for.   Like I said, I wouldn’t have blamed anyone had this resulted in a fire and brimstone/shock and awe event.  

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There appear to be meetings going on to determine the correct balance for police response to protests.  Clearly the situation after this summer's protests was less force if possible.  Now suddenly less force is unacceptable.

The police are caught between a rock and a hard place where anything they do is going to piss off somebody.

The next large protest/riot is scheduled for January 20.

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Heads are beginning to roll all across the country. Neighbors are turning in neighbors, paparazzi are stalking suspects, politicians are having circle jerks, .......

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3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

There appear to be meetings going on to determine the correct balance for police response to protests.  Clearly the situation after this summer's protests was less force if possible.  Now suddenly less force is unacceptable.

The police are caught between a rock and a hard place where anything they do is going to piss off somebody.

The next large protest/riot is scheduled for January 20.

I would not want to be in law enforcement at all right now, it is a no win situation.  The main difference for me on this one is that it was the nations capitol, they broke in while armed, and the broke in whilst the country’s leadership was all there.  That is a lot of exacerbating factors at once  

 

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11 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I would not want to be in law enforcement at all right now, it is a no win situation.  The main difference for me on this one is that it was the nations capitol, they broke in while armed, and the broke in whilst the country’s leadership was all there.  That is a lot of exacerbating factors at once  

 

There are a lot of pictures and videos of the police doing heroic work at the Capitol.  And perceptions of racism is a very emotionally charged topic that can lead to hyperbolic comments. But I do think that lobby picture and some others is in very sharp contrast to how the police handled protestors this summer.

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4C9D543C-B3AF-46DC-9758-3DDF9AB8132E.jpeg

D69590FE-E9ED-4A0C-B4A0-8A8FBEA03912.webp

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1 minute ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

There are a lot of pictures and videos of the police doing heroic work at the Capitol.  And perceptions of racism is a very emotionally charged topic that can lead to hyperbolic comments. But I do think that lobby picture and some others is in very sharp contrast to how the police handled protestors this summer.

288F2D59-AD36-4E9C-A1D1-F9BB97D82F45.jpeg

4C9D543C-B3AF-46DC-9758-3DDF9AB8132E.jpeg

D69590FE-E9ED-4A0C-B4A0-8A8FBEA03912.webp 58.4 kB · 1 download

I don’t know why this photo won’t load, I’ll try again.

BC306048-F389-448F-8CB5-336D1E20CFB5.webp

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Twitter said one of the reasons they permanently banned Trump from the platform  is because there has been talk on Twitter and elsewhere about another assault on the Capitol and State Capitals on January 17. People were micro-analyzing his tweets for dog whistle comments.

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2 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I don’t know why this photo won’t load, I’ll try again.

Wrong format.

D69590FE-E9ED-4A0C-B4A0-8A8FBEA03912.jpg.f534571b68b2d435e023b0a66f939014.jpg

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4 hours ago, Randomguy said:

I would not want to be in law enforcement at all right now, it is a no win situation.  The main difference for me on this one is that it was the nations capitol, they broke in while armed, and the broke in whilst the country’s leadership was all there.  That is a lot of exacerbating factors at once  

 

And they retreated to the last door and line of defense where inside there were lives to protect.  The first person to attempt to cross that line got shot.  There were no other attempts.  It's a shame that she was killed but it's not like she was crossing some line out in the street.

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So a second Capitol Police officer has died. This time by suicide. 
 

Interesting the individuals once involved in a merger of consulting firms with his father’s. 
 

“Gold & Liebengood (now without Liebengood) merged with Paul Manafor's lobby firm Black, Manafort, Stone and Kelly to form BKSH & Associates At that time Liebengood was the Vice President of Government Affairs with Philip Morris.”

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54 minutes ago, Further said:

This whole thing is bothering me more and more.

Pelosi said on 60 Minutes there is evidence of a well planned, coordinated effort. It certainly appears, with the construction of a gallow on the steps and the the chants of “hang Mike Pence”, and the guys with zip-tie handcuffs roaming the Senate floor, that the execution of Pelosi, Pence and Schumer could have been a realistic outcome, to start.

6F190DF5-67F2-4BF3-A1DD-B086684618E4.jpeg

0FF641E8-6214-4841-B351-E80313F92686.jpeg

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The man pictured above carrying zip tie restraints has been arrested and charged as any criminal should be.

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Maryland Governor Larry Hogan (GOP) has released the information that he offered to send nearby Maryland National Guard troops to defend the Capitol.  It was not allowed by the federal government for almost two hours:

D.C. is unique because it lacks statehood and falls under federal jurisdiction, requiring the Pentagon's sign-off.

“Our guard mobilized and was ready, but we couldn't actually cross over the border into D.C. without the OK.

I can't speak as to what was going on the other end of the line back at the Pentagon or in the White House,” Hogan said. “I was in the middle of a meeting when my chief of staff came in and said the Capitol was under attack. We contacted – we were in contact with the mayor's office, who requested assistance. We immediately sent police assistance. I immediately called up the National Guard.”

Hogan said that eventually, his office got a call from Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy, asking to deploy the National Guard.

“All I know is that we were trying to get answers and we weren't getting answers,” Hogan said.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/10/larry-hogan-pentagon-took-hours-ok-national-guard-capitol-riot/6618084002/

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44 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:
3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

The man pictured above carrying zip tie restraints has been arrested and charged as any criminal should be.

And his mother.

And his mother.  That's just mean...

 

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12 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I believe that is her in the photo next to him on the Senate floor.

Good old mother/son bonding.  What's wrong with that?

 

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"Over the years, critics have attacked the verdicts, sentences, and procedures of the 1865 Military Commission. These critics have called the sentences unduly harsh and criticized the rule allowing the death penalty to be imposed with a two-thirds vote of Commission members.

The hanging of Mary Surratt, the first woman ever executed by the United States, has been a particular focus of criticism. Critics also have complained about the standard of proof, the lack of opportunity for defense counsel to adequately prepare for the trial, the withholding of potentially exculpatory evidence, and the Commission’s rule forbidding the prisoners from testifying on their own behalf."

A rush to judgement.

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I saw one of the guys who was on the senate floor who’s been arrested is a retired AF Lt. Colonel. While I tend to think he’ll be more difficult to crack than a guy living in the basement of his mom’s, I also believe they may lean on him more heavily than the others?

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1 minute ago, donkpow said:

"Over the years, critics have attacked the verdicts, sentences, and procedures of the 1865 Military Commission. These critics have called the sentences unduly harsh and criticized the rule allowing the death penalty to be imposed with a two-thirds vote of Commission members.

The hanging of Mary Surratt, the first woman ever executed by the United States, has been a particular focus of criticism. Critics also have complained about the standard of proof, the lack of opportunity for defense counsel to adequately prepare for the trial, the withholding of potentially exculpatory evidence, and the Commission’s rule forbidding the prisoners from testifying on their own behalf."

A rush to judgement.

Ft Leslie J. McNair is the oldest US military installation and site of the Lincoln Conspirator hangings.  The gallows are now the tennis courts.

That base has numerous ghost stories, I have my own personal accounts as well. Many believe Mary Surratt walks the base at night.  
 

 

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