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Just because it's an accepted "saying" or proverb, it isn't necessarily correct


Road Runner

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4 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

They pointed this out on Jeopardy last night.  I've heard this saying or some form of it a lot over my lifetime but I never really analyzed it.  It isn't actually right.

Pin by Sarah Adams on I heart design | Dawn quotes, Quotes about sky, Before  the dawn

The quote has nothing to do with the reality of Dawn (sun up).  Expecting that to be a correct statement shows some degree of foolishness.

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20 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

The quote has nothing to do with the reality of Dawn (sun up).  Expecting that to be a correct statement shows some degree of foolishness.

The saying is an analogy.  The analogy (the darkest sky is just before dawn) is wrong.

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37 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

The saying is an analogy.  The analogy (the darkest sky is just before dawn) is wrong.

You are assuming the saying is related to meteoritical dawn instead of situational/emotional dawn.  And it doesn't have to be an analogy.

 

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4 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

Jeopardy said it was wrong.  I agree with them.

They have been wrong before - I know.... sacrilege.  But they do have to bring a contestant back from time to time because of their error.  I'm thinking they are wrong this time too.  I'm sure of it.  Almost.

 

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17 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

It’s poetic, albeit irrational, but it carries a message of hope for enlightenment, an encouragement to persevere. 

I agree, but it is based on a flawed analogy.  I'm not denigrating the sentiment.  But if you are going to relate life's events to an astronomical event, then maybe you should pick an astronomical event that truly coincides and confirms your theory of life's related events.  

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3 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

relate life's events to an astronomical event, then maybe you should pick an astronomical event that truly coincides and confirms your theory of life's events. 

I wonder, then, whether the saying refers to the specific scenario where a new moon or a waning gibbous has already set in the western sky, or isn’t visible at all after having been somewhat visible earlier. Then it truly would seem darkest before the dawn of the sun. And having this experience of the moon setting before the sun even rises, generalizing it as a proverb to remind people that there are times when familiar signposts for nighttime navigation won’t be there, but with patience the sun will make itself known. 

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16 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

I wonder, then, whether the saying refers to the specific scenario where a new moon or a waning gibbous has already set in the western sky, or isn’t visible at all after having been somewhat visible earlier. Then it truly would seem darkest before the dawn of the sun. And having this experience of the moon setting before the sun even rises, generalizing it as a proverb to remind people that there are times when familiar signposts for nighttime navigation won’t be there, but with patience the sun will make itself known. 

Don't attempt to use logic on RR.  His mind is set and that's it.  The saying is flawed.  We just have to live with it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, MoseySusan said:

This source suggests there are several days each month where the moon would have set before sunrise, and so a night that was previously illuminated would appear darker before dawn. 
https://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/p/Phases

DC0EEC5E-E92A-4436-89CA-AB3906DBD5D7.jpeg

FAIL MossySue @MoseySusan.  You are picking some days.  The saying uses the adverb 'always'.  Only when the moon does this or that is not always.

 

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10 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

It's a metaphor about problems seeming impossible till you suddenly solve them.

No matter how you interpret it, it's wrong.  The sky gets gradually lighter before dawn.  The darkest sky is when the sun is on the opposite side of the earth, not just before it rises.

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1 hour ago, Road Runner said:

 The darkest sky is when the sun is on the opposite side of the earth, not just before it rises.

And this happens when?  Before the dawn.

Readers of this are implying (inferring) a 'just' in before the word before.

Technically, it IS darkest before the dawn...., albeit maybe 3 hours before the dawn.

What would be incorrect is if the saying was "It is always darkest JUST before the dawn"

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1 hour ago, Road Runner said:

The darkest sky is when the sun is on the opposite side of the earth, not just before it rises.

Unless the moon is up while the sun is on the opposite side, but sets before the sun rises. Then it’s darkest before the dawn. In which case, the saying it true and correct. 

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5 hours ago, Kzoo said:

You are assuming the saying is related to meteoritical dawn instead of situational/emotional dawn.  And it doesn't have to be an analogy.

 

I've always heard the phrase used in a situational/emotional way.

I guess Jeopardy also says it's impossible to have a "gloomy" state of mind since they aren't weather related.

I do know that a real scientist would not make the jokes Sheldon Cooper does on The Big Bang Theory about Uranus because a real Sheldon would correctly pronounce it Your-an-us instead of Your-anus.

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1 hour ago, MickinMD said:

I've always heard the phrase used in a situational/emotional way.

I guess Jeopardy also says it's impossible to have a "gloomy" state of mind since they aren't weather related.

I do know that a real scientist would not make the jokes Sheldon Cooper does on The Big Bang Theory about Uranus because a real Sheldon would correctly pronounce it Your-an-us instead of Your-anus.

I find young Sheldon to be a lot more tolerable than old Sheldon. :)

 

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2 hours ago, Wilbur said:

This is almost as inane a discussion as mine and RoadSue's pretendagender discussion!  I am impressed.  :) 

Today I identify as mossy Susan. :whistle: So, I’m thinking you’ve probably seen some amazing sunrises from flight altitude.

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