I didn’t know that judges

[Prophet Zacharia]

Could practice medicine. Or is it just veterinary medicine? 

“A county judge in Ohio has ordered a hospital in Cincinnati to administer ivermectin to an intensive care patient”.

[Prophet Zacharia]

In before @donkpow says “he could give out a pamphlet.”

[petitepedal ★]

Which is why after Terri Schiavo's case in Florida...I made a health care directive.  Don't  need some wack job judge sticking his nose where it don't belong.

[sheep_herder ★]

Neighbor that I sometimes buy hay from, indicated he felt better after catching covid when he rubbed ivermectin over his arms. I said OK and let it drop. Not sure he was ever tested. It is fun telling my Austin friend these stories, and explaining that things are a bit different in the country vs. the big cities.

[Prophet Zacharia]

46 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

Neighbor that I sometimes buy hay from, indicated he felt better after catching covid when he rubbed ivermectin over his arms. I said OK and let it drop. Not sure he was ever tested. It is fun telling my Austin friend these stories, and explaining that things are a bit different in the country vs. the big cities.

Although I suppose things are a bit different in Austin than other big Texas cities, as well.

[sheep_herder ★]

7 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Although I suppose things are a bit different in Austin than other big Texas cities, as well.

You can find all kinds of people anywhere you go. I grew up 26 miles SE of Houston. However, folks living in the country, often dependent upon themselves for survival, often have a different mindset about things they wii try for survival.

[Razors Edge ★]

10 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I didn’t know that judges

Could practice medicine. Or is it just veterinary medicine? 

“A county judge in Ohio has ordered a hospital in Cincinnati to administer ivermectin to an intensive care patient”.

From what I could tell, the person is on a ventilator?  Not in great shape.  At some point there is the "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks".  The Trump cocktail sort of thing where one of the alternatives is a high likelihood of death - either COVID or less but possible the ivermectin.

It actually is something the law ought to be involved in to a degree - ie whose life and body is it?  And who gets to make the decision? If it is simply doctors saying "that's not something I will do", that's different than having the doctor who wants to do it, the patient who wants it, and the law saying no.  Kervorkian had this issue as well.

[Razors Edge ★]

On the flip side, a judge taking away custody of a child until the parent is vaccinated.

Sort of like in sports, you NEVER want to get to a point in a game (or life) where a third party - judge/ref/umpire - is making the game-deciding decision.

[Digital_photog ★]

I propose we treat the judge with ivermectin.  It may cure his brain eating worms.

[JerrySTL ★]

The judge isn't practicing medicine. He just ruled on a dispute between a doctor and the hospital. It's a legal matter for the judge. The doctor ordered the Ivermectin but the hospital refused to give it. The patient's wife started a lawsuit against the hospital. According to the article below, the doctor is somewhat a nut job. 

https://gizmodo.com/judge-orders-hospital-to-give-severely-ill-covid-19-pat-1847586545

[12string]

18 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

The judge isn't practicing medicine. He just ruled on a dispute between a doctor and the hospital. It's a legal matter for the judge. The doctor ordered the Ivermectin but the hospital refused to give it. The patient's wife started a lawsuit against the hospital. According to the article below, the doctor is somewhat a nut job. 

https://gizmodo.com/judge-orders-hospital-to-give-severely-ill-covid-19-pat-1847586545

So you managed to find the one time that there's more to the story!  ;-)

This isn't just about "the guy's likely to die from COVID so let's try killing him with Ivermectin first".  It's terrible precedent.  Doesn't the doctor answer to the hospital?  If the doctor prescribed injecting air bubbles for a cold, does the hospital now have to allow it?

More, the fact that a case like this even came before the courts is a really sad commentary on the lost reality we used to have in this society.  It just blows my mind the way we've thrown out concepts like science, facts, looking out for others

[Razors Edge ★]

10 minutes ago, 12string said:

So you managed to find the one time that there's more to the story!  ;-)

This isn't just about "the guy's likely to die from COVID so let's try killing him with Ivermectin first".  It's terrible precedent.  Doesn't the doctor answer to the hospital?  If the doctor prescribed injecting air bubbles for a cold, does the hospital now have to allow it?

More, the fact that a case like this even came before the courts is a really sad commentary on the lost reality we used to have in this society.  It just blows my mind the way we've thrown out concepts like science, facts, looking out for others

A couple things to remember.  One, judges are elected AND run for re-election(!), so it is a political position.   And second, Butler County OH is deep red country where science loses out when push comes to shove.  A judge who wants to remain a judge in Butler County is pretty much going too toe the party line.

[12string]

4 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

A couple things to remember.  One, judges are elected AND run for re-election(!), so it is a political position.   And second, Butler County OH is deep red country where science loses out when push comes to shove.  A judge who wants to remain a judge in Butler County is pretty much going too toe the party line.

electing judges is about the stupidest thing a society can do.

OK, not any more, we;'e recently found myriad  ways to push it way down the list, but still a bad idea

[Prophet Zacharia]

2 hours ago, JerrySTL said:

The judge isn't practicing medicine. He just ruled on a dispute between a doctor and the hospital.

Except I don’t believe the doctor who is recommending the treatment is on medical staff at the hospital. He’s a third party ivermectin advocate that the judge is citing as justification for treatment. So the judge is mandating treatment.

I see Dr. Wagshul having affiliation with Kettering and Wright State University in Dayton, NOT the Cincinnati suburb hospital involved in the care.

 ”Washgul, a Dayton, Ohio-area pulmonologist, is listed as a founder of the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCA)—an organization that pushes ivermectin as both a preventative and therapeutic for covid-19 and claims research showing its ineffectiveness is a form of disinformation.”

[MickinMD ★]

10 hours ago, sheep_herder said:

Neighbor that I sometimes buy hay from, indicated he felt better after catching covid when he rubbed ivermectin over his arms. I said OK and let it drop. Not sure he was ever tested. It is fun telling my Austin friend these stories, and explaining that things are a bit different in the country vs. the big cities.

Not different.  That Texas politician who recently died of Covid had applied Ivermectic, too, and it didn't work - as the country and city doctors have been saying!

I doubt that the judge has the authority to do this and has opened himself up to lawsuits and possible criminal charges.  In any case, the doctors surely will either ignore the order or will give the human-approved dose which will no have any beneficial effect and may hasten the man's death.

"...when the NIH looked into it, the agency found that to achieve the ivermectin’s reported disruptive effects, the dose would have to be 100-times greater than what’s currently approved in humans. At those levels, the side-effects would likely be serious. The FDA has pleaded with people not to take ivermectin for COVID."

The judge is clearly WRONG.

 

[sheep_herder ★]

4 minutes ago, MickinMD said:

Not different.  That Texas politician who recently died of Covid had applied Ivermectic, too, and it didn't work - as the country and city doctors have been saying!

I doubt that the judge has the authority to do this and has opened himself up to lawsuits and possible criminal charges.  In any case, the doctors surely will either ignore the order or will give the human-approved dose which will no have any beneficial effect and may hasten the man's death.

"...when the NIH looked into it, the agency found that to achieve the ivermectin’s reported disruptive effects, the dose would have to be 100-times greater than what’s currently approved in humans. At those levels, the side-effects would likely be serious. The FDA has pleaded with people not to take ivermectin for COVID."

The judge is clearly WRONG.

 

Did you read the other posts? Just wondering. Do you really think the 'self applicators' pay attention to dosages? if so, you are living in a dream world. You do realize, that scientific knowledge has taken quite a hit these last few years?

[JerrySTL ★]

31 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Except I don’t believe the doctor who is recommending the treatment is on medical staff at the hospital. He’s a third party ivermectin advocate that the judge is citing as justification for treatment. So the judge is mandating treatment.

I see Dr. Wagshul having affiliation with Kettering and Wright State University in Dayton, NOT the Cincinnati suburb hospital involved in the care.

 ”Washgul, a Dayton, Ohio-area pulmonologist, is listed as a founder of the Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCA)—an organization that pushes ivermectin as both a preventative and therapeutic for covid-19 and claims research showing its ineffectiveness is a form of disinformation.”

Washgul seems to be a nutter and has a little stake in this case; however, it's the wife of the patient who brought the lawsuit. I still can't blame the judge all that much. Hopefully the hospital will appeal and get this reversed.

[jsharr ★]

6 hours ago, Digital_photog said:

I propose we treat the judge with ivermectin.  It may cure his brain eating worms.

those poor starving worms....

[Razors Edge ★]

7 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

Washgul seems to be a nutter and has a little stake in this case; however, it's the wife of the patient who brought the lawsuit. I still can't blame the judge all that much. Hopefully the hospital will appeal and get this reversed.

I think the guy is entitled to all the reasonable life-saving options out there.  I think the rogue doctor ought to be his primary and the hospital ought to pass the patient off that doctor. The biggest challenge is that real doctors and professional hospitals tend to take the Hippocratic Oath seriously, and I'd be surprised if they would willingly let such malpractice occur once they are in charge of the patient's care. 

If you're gonna go with wacky treatments, stay out of the "mainstream" hospitals.  Your body, your rights, until you bring all sorts of bad stuff down on to others.

[Wilbur ★]

Still want politicians running your healthcare?   

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Wilbur said:

Still want politicians running your healthcare?   

Apparently, they still are.  Got an alternative?

[Wilbur ★]

2 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Apparently, they still are.  Got an alternative?

Plenty of options. 

[Prophet Zacharia]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

I think the guy is entitled to all the reasonable life-saving options out there.  I think the rogue doctor ought to be his primary and the hospital ought to pass the patient off that doctor

So either the hospitals that Dr. Wagshul admits to are full, or the patient is too ill to transport. Or both. So the next option would be for family/ Dr. Wagshul to find a pulmonologist/ICU doctor on medical staff at that hospital who will prescribe the treatment. The hospital can’t just add Wagshul to their staff for this one case.

[12string]

21 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I think the guy is entitled to all the reasonable life-saving options out there. 

Ivermectin, in it's currently available form, isn't "reasonable".  And that's been proven

[Prophet Zacharia]

19 minutes ago, 12string said:

Ivermectin, in it's currently available form, isn't "reasonable".  And that's been proven

I find it amazing that the same group of people who latch onto radical treatments had  previously minimized the potential risk of the virus, and then (often) refused to take the FDA recommended/approved preventive options.

[Razors Edge ★]

38 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Plenty of options. 

Nice ones. Very detailed yet succinct!

23 minutes ago, 12string said:

Ivermectin, in it's currently available form, isn't "reasonable".  And that's been proven

Yep - I used that word for a reason.

38 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

So either the hospitals that Dr. Wagshul admits to are full, or the patient is too ill to transport. Or both. So the next option would be for family/ Dr. Wagshul to find a pulmonologist/ICU doctor on medical staff at that hospital who will prescribe the treatment. The hospital can’t just add Wagshul to their staff for this one case.

What needs to be made legally clear is that the hospital is no longer part of the chain of responsibility. It has become a situation where a person and his "doctor" are the sole responsible parties.  That hasn't happened and it really does screw the hospital that is acting in good faith to try and help the patient.

[Prophet Zacharia]

13 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

It has become a situation where a person and his "doctor" are the sole responsible parties. 

Here’s where I have a major issue with the judges’ order. There is no treating doctor who’s advocating for this care. The judge is ordering a doctor and hospital provide treatment that they oppose. They find it if no benefit and potentially harmful. It would be totally different if Wagshul were on staff, wanted to provide the treatment, and the hospital opposed it. The hospital could then say “fine, it’s out of our hands”. But instead the judge wants to force the treatment mandate (all the while having ZERO responsibility for the outcome). 

[Kzoo]

Does Wagshul have privileges at that hospital?

[Razors Edge ★]

12 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Here’s where I have a major issue with the judges’ order. There is no treating doctor who’s advocating for this care. The judge is ordering a doctor and hospital provide treatment that they oppose. They find it if no benefit and potentially harmful. It would be totally different if Wagshul were on staff, wanted to provide the treatment, and the hospital opposed it. The hospital could then say “fine, it’s out of our hands”. But instead the judge wants to force the treatment mandate (all the while having ZERO responsibility for the outcome). 

Yeah. I honestly can't see how a drug(s) could get into a patient through an unwilling doctor (or nurse) to administer it.  Sure, the judge could "order" the hospital to do it, but who is actually going to do it? Was that specific doctor/nurse named?  If not, I can't see how the order from the court would be followed or carried out.

[Prophet Zacharia]

9 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

If not, I can't see how the order from the court would be followed or carried out.

Not that I saw in the USA Today and local area newspapers. Which is why the   doctors who commented in the article said they should just ignore the order. Easier for a hospital to say “We can’t make our doctors order this” than “Dr. Smith” having to personally defy the judge’s order. 

[Parsnip Totin Jack ★]

5 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Still want politicians running your healthcare?   

In this case at least, the “politicians” aren’t. The hospital refusing to implement the treatment, at the request of the patient’s spouse, was sued by the spouse and the wackadoodle doctor who originally prescribed the treatment without consulting with the hospital. The judge’s hands were tied by the law. The spouse signed a liability release so the hospital is covered. I don’t blame the judge. I don’t blame the hospital. This is all on the patient and his family. I used to live there and know how it is; I respect their freedumb and their rights to die. 

[JerrySTL ★]

Update: Ohio Hospital Allowed To Stop Treating COVID-19 Patient With Ivermectin

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2021/09/06/judge-rules-hospital-cannot-forced-give-ivermectin/5746518001/

https://reason.com/2021/09/07/ohio-hospital-allowed-to-stop-treating-covid-19-patient-with-ivermectin/?itm_source=parsely-api

[Prophet Zacharia]

4 hours ago, JerrySTL said:

Update: Ohio Hospital Allowed To Stop Treating COVID-19 Patient With Ivermectin

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2021/09/06/judge-rules-hospital-cannot-forced-give-ivermectin/5746518001/

https://reason.com/2021/09/07/ohio-hospital-allowed-to-stop-treating-covid-19-patient-with-ivermectin/?itm_source=parsely-api

And even better news is that it isn’t because Mr. Smith died.

Quote

"What is more, based upon the testimony, Jeff Smith is capable of being safely and medically appropriately moved to a hospital where Dr. Wagshul has privileges. If continued use of ivermectin under Dr. Wagshul's treatment regimen is desired, Plaintiff has this as an available option without the need of intervention by a court."