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E85 gasoline is not cost efficient


JerrySTL

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My minivan is FlexFuel capable. I was down to a third of a tank and pulled into a gas station that had E85 gasoline 25 cents a gallon cheaper than the regular no-lead. E85 gasoline has 85% alcohol and 15% gasoline while most regular gasoline is 10% alcohol and 90% gasoline.

The E85 gasoline is about 10% cheaper; however, I'm getting about 20% less gas mileage. This makes sense as alcohol has about half the BTUs (British Thermal Units) of gasoline.

If I had waited until the tank was closer to empty, I bet that the gas mileage would be worse as what I have in the tank now is more like a 60-40 mixture of alcohol to gasoline. 

Therefore buying E85 gasoline doesn't make economic sense especially considering that it is government subsidized in many places and takes almost as much energy to make it.

I'd be interested in @MickinMD thoughts on this.

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3 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Why can't you just buy gasoline without the alcohol?

You can at some places like some Wawas, but it is aboot $.50 more per gallon, probably because it is a limited volume specialty product,  I have to remember to buy it for the mower, snowblower, and generator next time.  I think this is a relatively new product for the public, but you could always buy aviation gas, but it has way more octane than you need and costs a ton.  Not sure what octane it is.

For the main 90/10 stuff, it is greenwashing/political dealing big time.  It has been demonstrated to do nothing for the environment, its major selling point.  And it takes aboot as much energy to make it as it produces,  Pure bullshit.

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15 minutes ago, Philander Seabury said:

I think this is a relatively new product for the public, but you could always buy aviation gas, but it has way more octane than you need and costs a ton.  Not sure what octane it is.

Interestingly enough, it looks like "octane" might be the very reason for ethanol - at least in the lesser blends - is a key component in boosting octane.  And it is chosen because it is cheaper and sometimes a better alternative to other octane boosters.

E85, though, is a real head scratcher. It's not a mandate that I know of, so I'm not sure why it is even a product.

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That's funny.  Indy cars run E85 backwards.  That's 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.  They used to run 100% methanol but ethanol is safer.  They actually blend in the gasoline so that the flames become visible in case of a fire.

They run alcohol as a performance fuel.  One needs to burn almost twice as much for the same BTU but it doubles as a cooling agent for the incoming fuel air mixture so they can burn even more than that.

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13 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

That's funny.  Indy cars run E85 backwards.  That's 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.  They used to run 100% methanol but ethanol is safer.  They actually blend in the gasoline so that the flames become visible in case of a fire.

They run alcohol as a performance fuel.  One needs to burn almost twice as much for the same BTU but it doubles as a cooling agent for the incoming fuel air mixture so they can burn even more than that.

I also wouldn't run jet fuel in my car.

Different purposes, different fuels.

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13 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

That's funny.  Indy cars run E85 backwards.  That's 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.  They used to run 100% methanol but ethanol is safer.  They actually blend in the gasoline so that the flames become visible in case of a fire.

They run alcohol as a performance fuel.  One needs to burn almost twice as much for the same BTU but it doubles as a cooling agent for the incoming fuel air mixture so they can burn even more than that.

E85 is "ethanol-gasoline blends containing 51% to 83% ethanol", so not too far from the 85/15 mix.  We only have E15 generally in our gas stations.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

That's funny.  Indy cars run E85 backwards.  That's 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.  They used to run 100% methanol but ethanol is safer.  They actually blend in the gasoline so that the flames become visible in case of a fire.

They run alcohol as a performance fuel.  One needs to burn almost twice as much for the same BTU but it doubles as a cooling agent for the incoming fuel air mixture so they can burn even more than that.

Some of the hard core motor heads at work run E 85. They use huge jets in the carburetor and get less than 5 mpg 

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10 hours ago, JerrySTL said:

My minivan is FlexFuel capable. I was down to a third of a tank and pulled into a gas station that had E85 gasoline 25 cents a gallon cheaper than the regular no-lead. E85 gasoline has 85% alcohol and 15% gasoline while most regular gasoline is 10% alcohol and 90% gasoline.

The E85 gasoline is about 10% cheaper; however, I'm getting about 20% less gas mileage. This makes sense as alcohol has about half the BTUs (British Thermal Units) of gasoline.

If I had waited until the tank was closer to empty, I bet that the gas mileage would be worse as what I have in the tank now is more like a 60-40 mixture of alcohol to gasoline. 

Therefore buying E85 gasoline doesn't make economic sense especially considering that it is government subsidized in many places and takes almost as much energy to make it.

I'd be interested in @MickinMD thoughts on this.

Your monetary analysis is right.

Also, maybe a decade ago, I read reports where 15% alcohol caused auto engines to wear out faster than 0% alcohol.  I don't know if that's true with more recent vehicles, but I would think that 85% alcohol could have a serious effect: gasoline, mostly octane and octane-like hydrocarbons, are non-polar and don't have much attraction for the metal atoms in the engine. But alcohol is a polar molecule, with a slightly negative oxygen atom that forms an attraction to the metal atoms in the engine much weaker but similar to the way water causes rust.  85% ethanol is a little scary to me.

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43 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Seems it get a bad rap, but one wonders why?

Maybe it's the government subsidies that are paid to make the stuff.  https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-3321701

Like Jerry mentioned, the BTU content is lower, so the mpg is considerably less.  But the price is not low enough to offset the loss in mpg.  

I'd never use E85.   I don't like E90 gas, but that's just about all we can get here. 

43 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

What were the positives you read about it?

it's 'renewable'... you grow corn and make ethanol.      That's all I got for this... 

Then again...  If this was such a good plan... then why do you need a subsidy to make the finances work?? 

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20 hours ago, sheep_herder said:

I did not think it made sense from the beginning, and the ethanol really plays bad with small engines. 

Einstein reaches into his fuel engineering background and rants about this all the time.  It takes more energy to make it than you get out of it. I hear this and other stuff frequently. 

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3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

In theory it burns cleaner.  Winter gas in CT is mandated to contain alcohol.  This is supposed to make your engine run cleaner in weather conditions that cause it to run dirty.

I wonder if the gas that contains alcohol eliminated the need for adding dry gas in the winter? Or was it the non-vented fuel systems don’t get condensation. I never used dry gas but I would see people at the gas pumps pouring it in every time the weather got down around zero. We added alcohol to our air lines going to our trailer brakes on our trucks. Not sure it was necessary but the company provided it so we used it.

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I was remote IT support for an ethanol plant for a few years. I would be there half days 2 or 3 times per week. One of the engineers and I got to be friends. Let’s just say he thought outside the box. 
He said the energy in/energy out arguments use old data. Modern ethanol plants are much more efficient. However he also admitted that unless there was an energy Armageddon, subsidies will always be required to make it cost efficient for the consumer. 
As someone who currently lives in the middle of Ag Land, the current farming models are unsustainable. One of my clients is a big member of the corn board. He is encouraging farmers to begin crop rotations and diversify. We both hope some fields will be returned back to pasture and natural prairie. He is encouraging small scale livestock and returning to a farming model similar to the 1960s. He is barely 40 so he never saw it firsthand. But his FIL did and said it was a better life even though he is quite wealthy from subsidized corn. 

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43 minutes ago, groupw said:

He said the energy in/energy out arguments use old data. Modern ethanol plants are much more efficient. However he also admitted that unless there was an energy Armageddon, subsidies will always be required to make it cost efficient for the consumer. 

Hmm, owl have to do some googling to see if I need to update my references. I did read a book a while ago that said biofuels are not energy efficient, but who knows if that is outdated or maybe just wrong?

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35 minutes ago, Philander Seabury said:

Hmm, owl have to do some googling to see if I need to update my references. I did read a book a while ago that said biofuels are not energy efficient, but who knows if that is outdated or maybe just wrong?

I'm not sure that anyone really believes that they are better than gasoline on a cost or energy efficiency basis.  I believe that they are made on the grounds that someday we won't have gasoline.  Future planning.

Save what we have now.  You want to be the nation that runs out last.

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46 minutes ago, Rattlecan said:

Yeah, a diesel will run on jet fuel, but you might want to add some magic elixir to lube the fuel system components. 

Yeah, I ran a diesel Volvo on jet fuel 10 years.  It only cost me a case of beer a couple times a year so the mechanic would sump the aircraft tanks daily. :) 

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5 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I'm not sure that anyone really believes that they are better than gasoline on a cost or energy efficiency basis.  I believe that they are made on the grounds that someday we won't have gasoline.  Future planning.

Save what we have now.  You want to be the nation that runs out last.

And the expectation of running out may backfire. Already, gas usage has declined with the advent of electric vehicles (ignoring how they generate electricity - but usually doesn't involve an ethanol plant) and the higher CAFE standards resulting in higher efficiency. Major manufacturers have se corporate goals for all electric cars and light truck as primary production around 2035. Governments are currently whining about loss revenue based on gas taxes that electric don't use and more efficient - both hybrid and CAFE engineered for maximum mpg, use less.  

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8 minutes ago, Tizeye said:

And the expectation of running out may backfire. Already, gas usage has declined with the advent of electric vehicles (ignoring how they generate electricity - but usually doesn't involve an ethanol plant) and the higher CAFE standards resulting in higher efficiency. Major manufacturers have se corporate goals for all electric cars and light truck as primary production around 2035. Governments are currently whining about loss revenue based on gas taxes that electric don't use and more efficient - both hybrid and CAFE engineered for maximum mpg, use less.  

Don't worry. The government will never run out of methods to tax.

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16 minutes ago, Wilburger said:

Yeah, I ran a diesel Volvo on jet fuel 10 years.  It only cost me a case of beer a couple times a year so the mechanic would sump the aircraft tanks daily. :) 

I worked with a guy who had a VW diesel. He gladly drain the aircraft tank sumps when needed. He's let the stuff settle in a bowser for a while and take a few gallons off the top. In the winter he'd just let the VW idle all night long.

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44 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

I worked with a guy who had a VW diesel. He gladly drain the aircraft tank sumps when needed. He's let the stuff settle in a bowser for a while and take a few gallons off the top. In the winter he'd just let the VW idle all night long.

Odd method, for sure!  Just poured it right down his gullet?

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12 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

Maybe it's the government subsidies that are paid to make the stuff.  https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-3321701

Like Jerry mentioned, the BTU content is lower, so the mpg is considerably less.  But the price is not low enough to offset the loss in mpg.  

I'd never use E85.   I don't like E90 gas, but that's just about all we can get here. 

it's 'renewable'... you grow corn and make ethanol.      That's all I got for this... 

Then again...  If this was such a good plan... then why do you need a subsidy to make the finances work?? 

Yeah - I think much of that are the "political" pieces.  The corn lobby, big Ag, and just subsidies in general.  It's why it is so fun for politicians to use it as a punching bag or as a "handout".

What I find, though, is that it is way more complicated and nuanced than the simple energy in/energy out, MPG, or pricing aspect.  That matters, for sure, to the consumer, but that there also a seeming multitude of reasons why the producers and eventually the consumers (again) should care and may change their opinions from "anti" to "pro" or maybe "okay in a bunch of situations...". 

One case well emphasized was the higher octane levels of ethanol vs regular gasoline.  Likewise, certain performance rationals are discussed - engine cooling and friendlier to turbo/superchargers.  In the real world, folks readily buy "premium" gas for their cars vs the usual 87 (or even lower) blends I get for my Accord. We're seeing $0.40 to $1.00 price - per gallon - at the pump for "regular" vs "premium", so that's a 15-30% price hit folks are paying regardless of ethanol.  Another source mentioned the ethanol is used to boost octane, and the current alternatives to boosting octane cost significantly more, so if they stopped the ethanol and went with them, production costs would go up and possibly lose the other beneficial things of ethanol as well.

Another argument that pops up is the downstream benefits - cleaner burning & "better" emissions seem to be bandied about. IOW, paying up-front for downstream savings cleaning the mess up.  Assigning cost/savings to that is tough, but like most pollution, a small group may create it, but the whole group will pay to fix it.  So, like dumping used motor oil down the nearby sewer, it saves ME money (no cost), but has a real cost to the city/county/state (taxpayers).  Likewise, vehicle emissions - from MY car, for MY benefit - have no cost to me, but eventually, have REAL costs to the community at large.

Even just rambling through the google, there are lots of articles on the possible pros/cons of ethanol in fuel, and it clearly is one which there is more than a little "gray" area.  Choosing solely by a MPG/$$$ at the pump perspective, I think we might be missing the bigger picture. Again, it may still be a net negative, but where it might initially seem to be a "1" on a scale of 1 to 10 (w/ great idea being a 10), maybe after a bit of time looking over the breadth of the issue, it becomes somewhere in the 4 to 6 range.

Me? I buy the cheapest fuel possible for my cars.  I go to Costco, buy their regular gas, and call it a day.  I do hate crappy gas mileage, but I also don't drive much anymore, so the miles I do drive are the "best" ones - highway - for maximum MPG, so I don't feel the hit of visiting a gas station too often and the pain one type of gas vs another might actually be having on my wallet.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

Don't worry. The government will never run out of methods to tax.

Yep...and that is where the whole miles driven argument comes in. Of course with it GPS based there is no way to turn it off as that would be self defeating, but reading when the car is being transported and not driven. That would include on a trailer or pulled behind an RV, GPS shows miles where odometer doesn't. 

Likewise, never have understood - except greater return for the State - tax/licensing a car based on value (ad valorum) going over the road, vs a handful of States taxing/licensing based on the weight putting wear and tear on the road.

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