Pronouns in signature line

[shootingstar]

On the rare occasion, I've seen some employees have their automatic signature include the pronoun thing.  ie. she/her   I don't feel it's necessary for me to do it.   

My eldest niece has the she/her in her twitter profile, etc.  She is married to a guy and she says so in her 'Net bio.  I think it's to partially fend off Internet creeps.

Part of me knows sorta about the pronoun thing,  but in terms of gender identity...ie. male, female, gay or trans, it's to me a private thing, though I realize society  unconsciously still heavily  leans on the  male/female ci construct.  Did I say that right?

Do I care if an employee declares they are gay to their work colleagues? Do I need to know?  No. I don't see how gender sexual preference, even relates to their work knowledge, skill or job role. Not to me. The most important thing is how I relate respectfully and consistently to a broad range of people, especially people who will remain kinda strangers to me.

I understand for myself having a non-European last name, that's clearly Asian and visually looking at me, my family racial background is obvious. I don't have to "tell" people...except of course, people can make the wrong assumptions if I don't speak..meaning my English fluency is a clear /should be a strong clue.  But I so rarely even discuss my identity with my work colleagues  ..they are just distant, friendly folks to me. People just know that I grew up in Ontario, etc.

 

[Airehead]

Using people’s pronouns of choice is part of respecting them. 

[Prophet Zacharia]

13 minutes ago, Airehead said:

Using people’s pronouns of choice is part of respecting them. 

This. I don’t include pronouns in my email signature, but  lot of my younger work colleagues do, regardless of their identity. I think it’s a supportive thing they do for their peers. I find it helpful on occasions, neutral at worst.

[jsharr ★]

If I get an email with pronouns I delete it

[Wilbur ★]

1 minute ago, jsharr said:

If I get an email with pronouns I delete it

Not before blocking them I hope! 

[shootingstar]

In my previous dept., there was a gay work colleague. She was hard-working, helpful to clients and gave her supportive manager all sorts of ideas /recommendations to improve work processes. Her guy colleagues (she and all others are GIS drawing drafting staff) liked her and really looked to her for ideas, etc.  She was feisty and was very good getting engineering firms to  get their drawing submissions in line to our standards.

She was Chinese-Canadian. To me, that was my connection to her since I was impressed  how much she preserved her mother tongue fluency despite being in Canada as a little girl after HK babyhood. She has never told us of her pronoun preference nor has it her sig.  She did show us her wedding photos at work.  Last I heard at lunch, was their rather expensive resort beach vacation in the Seychelles Islands...before covid. (Seems like another world.)

 

 

[shootingstar]

37 minutes ago, jsharr said:

If I get an email with pronouns I delete it

Can't get too jokey ...when receiving an email from one of our organization's lawyers with that in her sig..at work. It's hard enough to flag stuff for her to review and get her sign-off.

[Zephyr]

Having dealt with two different Universities this fall regarding lectures and material, I did notice most of those writing me had their pronouns   My wife, who works for a third University said it is pretty standard now in their correspondence.  The only one I have gotten outside the Uni works was a non-binary (they/them) which having it made it much easier for me to start off right and easier for them to not have to correct me if I had of used a he or she.

[Razors Edge ★]

9 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

This. I don’t include pronouns in my email signature, but  lot of my younger work colleagues do, regardless of their identity. I think it’s a supportive thing they do for their peers. I find it helpful on occasions, neutral at worst.

But, keeping in mind, many (most) folks have a lifetime of using "normal" A or B pronouns, so change is not and will not be easy.  My feeling is it's gonna take a lot more that an e-mail signature to move most people towards 1) awareness, 2) understanding/empathy, and 3) adoption of the idea. 

To folks like my mom, at 75, it's not in the cards. At best, we'll get to #2, but no way she's ever really going to have enough exposure to non-binary or even simple "A identifying as B" folks that she gets good at speaking that way.

To kids like my nieces and nephews?  Heck they get it and are at the #3 point wherever they know it applies (and perhaps even in the "ask" when appropriate category). 

Patience is the word of the day.

[BuffJim]

I try to treat all people of every stripe with respect. When I see people mistreating me or others, that respect diminishes. 

[Kzoo]

I need a couple pronouns in my sig line.   What's a pronoun?

[Further]

I guess Hey!! is my pronoun and You is my name.   

It’s what I answer to 

[Wilbur ★]

I am clearly too old for this chit.  I remember "Ms" being radical.   

[Razors Edge ★]

2 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

 I remember "Ms" being radical.   

Is it still?

[Bikeguy]

19 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

22 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

I remember "Ms" being radical.   

Is it still?

Probably when the person identifies as him.

[Bikeguy]

12 hours ago, shootingstar said:

On the rare occasion, I've seen some employees have their automatic signature include the pronoun thing.  ie. she/her   I don't feel it's necessary for me to do it. 

I'm glad I retired 4 years ago...

[Wilbur ★]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Is it still?

Wrong guy to ask.  I am not a part of woke inc. 

[Prophet Zacharia]

5 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

so change is not and will not be easy.

I agree, I think it’s mostly millennials or even younger generations doing it. And understand that seniors may have no clue about why such a thing happens, but maybe it’s good they’re not on company emails anymore.

[MoseySusan]

16 hours ago, shootingstar said:

though I realize society  unconsciously still heavily  leans on the  male/female ci construct.  Did I say that right?

Close, and we get what you mean. Although the term cisgender was added to the Oxford dictionary in 2015, its origin and use in contrast to the term transgender dates further back, this web article explains. 

[MoseySusan]

3 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Wrong guy to ask.  I am not a part of woke inc. 

I suspect you know other people exist and they have a right to self-determination. Nothing woke about that. 

[Wilbur ★]

13 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

I suspect you know other people exist and they have a right to self-determination. Nothing woke about that. 

Of course.  They don't however, have a right to compel speech.   

[MoseySusan]

1 minute ago, Wilbur said:

Of course.  They don't however, have a right to compel speech.   

Who does? 

[maddmaxx ★]

Well, I did use part of the Motown Missile in the title of a thread and it was a Pro Stock car.  I guess that's it then and it meets the grimmer rules.

[UglyBob]

I prefer amateur nouns. The pro ones cost too much...

[Kzoo]

1 hour ago, MoseySusan said:

1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

Of course.  They don't however, have a right to compel speech.   

Who does? 

Institutions of higher learning.

[Wilbur ★]

5 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Institutions of higher learning.

That is just becoming cosplay with a participant certificate.   

[Kzoo]

Just now, Wilbur said:

That is just becoming cosplay with a participant certificate.   

If you pay them $60,000 a year, they have the right to tell you what to say and what to call things and people.  This is 'merica...

[MoseySusan]

11 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

That is just becoming cosplay with a participant certificate.   

Democracy in action! Power to the people…

[Wilbur ★]

9 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

If you pay them $60,000 a year, they have the right to tell you what to say and what to call things and people.  This is 'merica...

6.9% inflation.  This too, is America.  

[maddmaxx ★]

34 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

6.9% inflation.  This too, is America.  

You didn't think big business (not mom and pop) would allow themselves to fail just because the customers are staying home did you.  Unlike classic market pressure we are in a "sales down, raise prices" mode, sort of like when the government doesn't get enough revenue from gas taxes.  (time to put up toll booths).

[12string]

I used to think the pronoun thing was stupid.

But watching my niece go through a really tough time figuring (her?)self out has changed things a bit.  (She?) now calls herself by initials, but has yet to decide on a pronoun.  And it's tough for all of us to know what to say.  And (she's?) fragile enough that the wrong words and assumptions are painful.

I won't use them, But if you can't just go by a person's name, a pronoun would help

[shootingstar]

10 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

But, keeping in mind, many (most) folks have a lifetime of using "normal" A or B pronouns, so change is not and will not be easy.  My feeling is it's gonna take a lot more that an e-mail signature to move most people towards 1) awareness, 2) understanding/empathy, and 3) adoption of the idea. 

That was my point. It's more important how I treat a person, not just the signature piece or even worrying about their signature/lack of.

[shootingstar]

9 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I am clearly too old for this chit.  I remember "Ms" being radical.   

Actually looking back, it took awhile, but not too long for some folks. And woman not questioned if as professional, they choose to keep their maiden last name for the salutation:  ie. Dr. xxxxxx

[Bikeguy]

2 hours ago, Wilbur said:

That is just becoming cosplay with a participant certificate.

I knew giving out participation awards for sports was a bad idea.   Talking to a friend who teaches in elementary school a while ago, that seems to be 'normal' for schools now too.  It appears it's nearly impossible to flunk a kid, they just get advanced to the next grade. 

But they probably know their pronouns.  

[MoseySusan]

13 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Talking to a friend who teaches in elementary school a while ago, that seems to be 'normal' for schools now too.  It appears it's nearly impossible to flunk a kid, they just get advanced to the next grade. 

It’s been this way for at least 29 years. A few years ago, our district restricted schools from issuing disciplinary suspension, also. We had to find other means to teaching content to non-readers and teaching sociopaths to play nicely. 

[Bikeguy]

13 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

It’s been this way for at least 29 years. A few years ago, our district restricted schools from issuing disciplinary suspension, also. We had to find other means to teaching content to non-readers and teaching sociopaths to play nicely. 

29 years...      

Quote

our district restricted schools from issuing disciplinary suspension

Wow.... I didn't realize it was THAT bad.   

I guess the nuns with their rulers we had in school in the 60s would be in jail for that behavior now.   

I survived cars with out seatbelts, nuns with rulers, smoking indoors just about anywhere (I never smoked myself) and I actually passed each grade and made it thru engineering at college.  I taught only one after hours class for engineers at my job.   I was GLAD I could quit teaching after that class.  It was NOT work the money for the extra effort I had to do to be able to teach.  

1 hour ago, 12string said:

And (she's?) fragile enough that the wrong words and assumptions are painful.

We have become soooo  PC it is scary how things have progressed digressed...    I hate to say it... but the first thing I thought of was 'toughen up buttercup'.... but I'm just an old bastard who has probably forgotten how difficult it was to be young. 

[Square Wheels]

I do not care for them.

I will never display them in my email.

I will not use them.  That's your preference, not mine.

I will be polite and refer to you by your name.

I'm pretty sure I don't care if you like it or not.

We'll need to agree to disagree, or not be friends.

[Kzoo]

1 hour ago, MoseySusan said:

and teaching sociopaths to play nicely. 

Put them on WoKzoo’s school bus so she can haul them to a special school 20 miles away.  She has her radio so the bus garage can call 911 as needed.

[Ralphie ★]

I agree with Wilbur that I am too old for this shit. And I posted well before this brouhaha that pronouns are eville, mainly because it is often not clear what they are supposed to refer to. Just using the real names instead in most cases seems worthwhile to me. 

[Razors Edge ★]

11 hours ago, Philander Seabury said:

I agree with Wilbur that I am too old for this shit. And I posted well before this brouhaha that pronouns are eville, mainly because it is often not clear what they are supposed to refer to. Just using the real names instead in most cases seems worthwhile to me. 

Yep - real names keeps it REAL simple and no need for you to make a mistake!  K.I.S.S. works in many cases for sure. 

When you mention old, I again jump back to my mom as a great example.  At 75, think of what the world was like for "gay" folks back then.  My mom was born into an era when being gay (and that was the sole lump category for folks across the spectrum) was often CRIMINAL, was certainly an "offense" folks could be ACTIVELY persecuted for - ie fired, demoted, excluded, or otherwise discriminated against - and was in some places actually a potential death sentence.  IOW, a whole swath of the population was classified and treated as mentally ill, criminals, and/or pariahs in society.  "Gays" were contemptible and were treated as such. 

So, it is not hard to see how folks forged in that era still struggle with how the world has progressed over those 75 years.  Heck, how the world had progressed over my lifetime, or my working lifetime, or just the past decade.

Just like some (most? all?) of us moved past women as non-voters, or being able to "own" other humans, we're progressing towards a point where "gay" (now much more refined into the diverse LGBT+ community) is no longer criminal, no longer a mental health disease, and not dismissed out of hand.  Sure, it complicates things when you have to THINK before opening your mouth or writing a text, but  I'm sure most folks are smart enough to figure it out...if they wanted to. 

[12string]

15 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

I hate to say it... but the first thing I thought of was 'toughen up buttercup'

I have to admit, I would be more ambivalent about it if this was someone different.  But because it's so close, someone I care a lot about, I'm accepting and learning.  And it's far from "PC", and certainly progress - at least for me

This is one of the toughest kids I've ever met.  Until approaching puberty and the confusion crept in.  Life was hell, until (she) settled on a course to openly accept that things might not be what they seem.  Still tough, but now fragile, too. This isn't some cool thing to try, it's a real psychological difficulty.

[MoseySusan]

1 minute ago, 12string said:

But because it's so close, someone I care a lot about, I'm accepting and learning

Peace be… (hugs all around). Your loved ones will always have allies.