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Questions about hospitals


sheep_herder

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I don't want to step into the religious or political realm, but I am curious if hospitals are often requested to administered certain drugs or treatments by patients or families. If this does happen and the hospital refuses, does it result in a lawsuit? Wondering after what has happened with Ivermectin. I am one of those who puts a fair amount of trust in my chosen doctors, and I also believe in the power of science. Discuss or not or shut it down if it is too risky.  Hope everyone has a Great Day.

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16 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

I don't want to step into the religious or political realm, but I am curious if hospitals are often requested to administered certain drugs or treatments by patients or families. If this does happen and the hospital refuses, does it result in a lawsuit? Wondering after what has happened with Ivermectin. I am one of those who puts a fair amount of trust in my chosen doctors, and I also believe in the power of science. Discuss or not or shut it down if it is too risky.  Hope everyone has a Great Day.

We had a discussion awhile back on the topic.  Search ivermectin and you should find it.

My feelings are that there are distinct differences between allowing a hospital to do something versus requiring it.  Outside the hospital, I think it is ABSOLUTELY fine for folks to try - for themselves (not kids or non compos mentis situations) - whatever they wish - from ivermectin, bleach, or standing on their head.  Their life, their choice. But, requiring a hospital, doctors, and nurses to engage in quackery is disgusting.

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46 minutes ago, sheep_herder said:

I am one of those who puts a fair amount of trust in my chosen doctors, and I also believe in the power of science.

This is the only rational way to think about the situation.

It is so easy for echo-chamber dipshits to demand something with zero known benefits for treating covid, and allowing them to have any influence greatly complicates care in a hospital.  You know so damn much, why go to the hospital in the first place?  You go to facebook and click on the quackery videos posted by outright nutcases, and now you know better than folks who mostly majored in biology or chemistry, then went into an incredibly selective and demanding medical school environment?  Wowee, you should have been a doctor with those smarts, Vizzini! 

Can you imagine the time drain of dealing with facebook experts?   Lots of people are idiots, and forcefully declare they know better than the entirety of the respected medical field and health organizations, it really is stupid and puzzling at the same time.  In life, there are plenty of dumb opinions and dumb questions and folks looking only for affirmation of those dumb opinions.  It is just wasting time of the people trying to actually help the patients in what is known as the best protocols available at the time.

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1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

Can you imagine the time drain of dealing with facebook experts?   Lots of people are idiots, and forcefully declare they know better than the entirety of the respected medical field and health organizations, it really is shocking.

I like to think true experts are not on the FB soap box. I'm so glad I deleted it.

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3 minutes ago, 12string said:

So there's two career choices:

Spend a ton of years and dollars going to school and residency and all that hoo hah

Go to Facebook and watch a 10 minute video that captures all of the above in 10 minutes for free.

So who's the smart on NOW, huh?

Few years ago I was helping my Dad to the doctor for his visit. I over heard (difficult not to) a Doctor talking to someone on the phone. And the gist of the story is this. Don't believe WEBMD.  I'm not kidding. It was a 20 minute conversation of a doctor telling this person that "x" test shows this needs to be done yada yada yada. WebMD is a generic information. :facepalm:I can't believe a person would challenge a doctor based on web information. But it happens.

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25 minutes ago, 12string said:

I don't understand why one would seek the help of professionals only to tell them how to perform their job.  Especially in fields like medicine.

Yeah, I'ma guess that his question was spurred by the case in TX(?), where the husband sued the hospital to use Ivermectin on his wife. They refused, she died.

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Just now, 2Far said:

Yeah, I'ma guess that his question was spurred by the case in TX(?), where the husband sued the hospital to use Ivermectin on his wife. They refused, she died.

Not so much that case, but cases in general, where the hospital is sued because they did not do what the patient or their family recommended. I know some of this is driven by lawyers, and remember, I have been related to some. Wasn't so interested in this going the ivermectin route, but curious about the legal aspect. We have some that work at hospitals on the forum.

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10 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

This is the only rational way to think about the situation.

It can be more complicated in situations where loved ones are DESPERATE.  Imagine you're sedated on a respirator and the doctors give your spouse/gf/parent the news that odds are you are going to die.  You've heard from someone else that there might be a chance with using XYZ, but - and a BIG BUT - is that the hospital won't use that treatment but also has misgivings about releasing a person in ICU and under sedation.  Time is critical, and getting through all the layers to find a resolution (or agreement point) may be too late for sure.

I'd try to err on the compassionate side of things, and the flexibility of meeting patient wishes.

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1 minute ago, sheep_herder said:

Not so much that case, but cases in general, where the hospital is sued because they did not do what the patient or their family recommended. I know some of this is driven by lawyers, and remember, I have been related to some. Wasn't so interested in this going the ivermectin route, but curious about the legal aspect. We have some that work at hospitals on the forum.

Do you have info about how many of these cases win against the hospital? 

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14 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

It can be more complicated in situations where loved ones are DESPERATE.  Imagine you're sedated on a respirator and the doctors give your spouse/gf/parent the news that odds are you are going to die.  You've heard from someone else that there might be a chance with using XYZ, but - and a BIG BUT - is that the hospital won't use that treatment but also has misgivings about releasing a person in ICU and under sedation.  Time is critical, and getting through all the layers to find a resolution (or agreement point) may be too late for sure.

I'd try to err on the compassionate side of things, and the flexibility of meeting patient wishes.

I realize that it is hard to have the awareness needed to know you are probably gonna be wrong when you are desperate.  I also know that doctors are not always right, and are often wrong. 

That said, this is a newish virus still, and a huge portion of the medical field are scrambling for new solutions and protocols that can help.  They know the ones that don't help are the same that are being asked for, and have been discarded as not worthy at all or not as worthy as better known and more effective treatments.  You Shirley sign something on the way in that says "No, you are NOT the doctor, the doctors helping you are the doctors.  We aren't taking requests, you gotta do what we advise or not, but you can't request your own treatments.  You can go home and do that wild-ass shit if you want to, and you agree that you understand that this is the case and you are gonna lose if you sue about it".

Compassion is good, even necessary in the field, but these disputes don't help.  If the hospital has waivers to sign and feel ok about the quackpottery, then they can humor the family if they like.  The whole thing sounds like a morass than can easily suck anyone in if you let it.

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1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

IMO you don't tell doctors what to do.

I would modify that.  The doctor is no different than a lawyer in that they suggest a treatment like a lawyer suggests an action.  I like to be in control of my own treatment.  Doctors in Canada often say you have to be your own health advocate or you won't receive the treatment you might need.  In Canada, we can't opt for non-approved drugs unless you become a subject of organized and approved experimentation.  Clinical trials, as it were.  This is why so many Canadians head to third world countries for unapproved treatments. 

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21 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

You Shirley sign something on the way in that says "No, you are NOT the doctor, the doctors helping you are the doctors.  We aren't taking requests, you gotta do what we advise or not, but you can't request your own treatments.  You can go home and do that wild-ass shit if you want to, and you agree that you understand that this is the case and you are gonna lose if you sue about it".

Do you? A sedated person in the ICU and on a ventilator? How should a hospital act with a loved one demanding more and more aggressive but unproven (harmful?) interventions? Roll the gurney to the curb and help her load the minivan? Ignore her? Or find a middle ground - ASAP - that provides her (and the patient) with some alternative never mind how remote as a cure?

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49 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

Ivermectin aside; the ER nurse gave me ibuprofen for my broken hand, but I told her that my dr. said I shouldn’t take ibuprofen. She overruled his directions and told me it’s ok to take once in awhile. It was a tense moment. 

Not pointing fingers here but I always keep in the back of my mind that half of all doctors were below class average. :)  

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1 minute ago, Wilbur said:

Not pointing fingers here but I always keep in the back of my mind that half of all doctors were below class average. :)  

Yeah, is the bottom half of the top 10% really any good at anything? :dontknow:

30 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Doctors in Canada often say you have to be your own health advocate or you won't receive the treatment you might need.

I think it is always a good idea for a family to have two things - a family member who is a lawyer and one who is a doctor (or a knowledgeable nurse).  I noticed in the past how much a call from a family member who is a doctor to the treating physician can really change the power dynamic and improve treatment.  When the attending doctor is aware you are also informed, and have an informed advocate, outcomes improve.   

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Some doctors have no common sense. July and August doctors sent me to ER three times for extremely low blood pressure. Twice by ambulance and twice I was admitted for four days. My last time I was admitted the hospital doctor insisted I take two heart drugs that lower blood pressure. I refused, he said I have to take these drugs to let y heart heal. I said how is my heart going to heal if I’m dead. They managed to get ahold of my cardiologist (It was a weekend) and the cardiologist said don’t give him the drugs because he can’t tolerate them.

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50 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Do you? A sedated person in the ICU and on a ventilator? How should a hospital act with a loved one demanding more and more aggressive but unproven (harmful?) interventions? Roll the gurney to the curb and help her load the minivan? Ignore her? Or find a middle ground - ASAP - that provides her (and the patient) with some alternative never mind how remote as a cure?

I have noticed that most of the laws governing health favor the hospital over the patient.  

This is a soylent green situation if I have ever heard one.

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Just now, Randomguy said:

I have noticed that most of the laws governing health favor the hospital over the patient.  

How much have you paid a lobbyist this year? This decade? In your life?  I can guarantee hospital orgs, insurance orgs, doctor orgs, Pharma orgs, and any number of other special interests have spent more on lobbying in a day than you have in a lifetime. More than everyone in this Cafe has spent in their lifetime plus all of their families as well.

But, to the OP, fake news is sadly coupled now with evil as well.  Someone started the ivermectin nonsense, and then some folks actively "pumped" it.  That's where the evil resides.

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1 hour ago, bikeman564™ said:

I like to think true experts are not on the FB soap box. I'm so glad I deleted it.

Unfortunately I stay on facebook because that is the center of the RC drag racing universe.  All the races are announced there.  Many of the aftermarket parts made for our cars are advertised by small shops that have their store fronts there.  The people I race with have various groups that they and I belong to.  

Still, there are days that I want to chuck it all in because somebody wants to post stupid, anti social stuff there because .................. damn, I don't really know why because.  They just can't keep it in their pants.

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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

How much have you paid a lobbyist this year? This decade? In your life?  I can guarantee hospital orgs, insurance orgs, doctor orgs, Pharma orgs, and any number of other special interests have spent more on lobbying in a day than you have in a lifetime. More than everyone in this Cafe has spent in their lifetime plus all of their families as well.

But, to the OP, fake news is sadly coupled now with evil as well.  Someone started the ivermectin nonsense, and then some folks actively "pumped" it.  That's where the evil resides.

You don't suppose that some enemies of our country would fuel those fires would you?

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2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Unfortunately I stay on facebook because that is the center of the RC drag racing universe.  All the races are announced there.  Many of the aftermarket parts made for our cars are advertised by small shops that have their store fronts there.  The people I race with have various groups that they and I belong to.  

Still, there are days that I want to chuck it all in because somebody wants to post stupid, anti social stuff there because .................. damn, I don't really know why because.  They just can't keep it in their pants.

I hear ya. I liked so many bike pages from clubs & such. The nice thing aboot FB is one stop shopping for info on events and goings on. Or friends saying "hey I'm riding here at 10". But yes, people ruin it :(

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2 hours ago, bikeman564™ said:

I agree the Doc knows more than me. If I heard of a drug, I would inquire aboot it for discussion, and get the Doc's opinion on it. Sometimes there may be a different drugs to use.

100%  Sure go ask 2nd and 3rd physician if one has doubts. Not sure if U.S. system makes that feasible.

Please ...physicians have more training, etc, have access and can interpret the scientific results better than us. DO UNDERSTAND, especially in research/teaching hospitals they work with staff pharmacists..who have even more drug/pharmacology knowledge and work in teams on clinical trials.  I can attest with 2  of these professionals in my family.  I ask them for their  2nd (or lst opinion before I go to my family doctor).

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We listened to the dr’s with my mom and they made a mistake with her care & caused her stroke. Prematurely took her off blood thinners when treating a bulged vein in her brain (forgot the medical term…).   Then they misdiagnosed bladder cancer for a UTI and didn’t catch the cancer until it hat metastasized into her bones.  They tried to convince us it was in her best interests to go through an aggressive chemo schedule which we refused and she died a week later anyway. 

For the most part I trust Dr’s but they screw up as well so it’s wise to get 2nd or 3rd opinions but not necessarily on the inter webs. 

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1 minute ago, ChrisL said:

We listened to the dr’s with my mom and they made a mistake with her care & caused her stroke. Prematurely took her off blood thinners when treating a bulged vein in her brain (forgot the medical term…).   Then they misdiagnosed bladder cancer for a UTI and didn’t catch the cancer until it hat metastasized into her bones.  They tried to convince us it was in her best interests to go through an aggressive chemo schedule which we refused and she died a week later anyway. 

For the most part I trust Dr’s but they screw up as well so it’s wise to get 2nd or 3rd opinions but not necessarily on the inter webs. 

Sorry for this :(   They do screw up, they're human.

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1 hour ago, donkpow said:

You didn't get a pamphlet on this from your doctor?

Thank you! While I believe  @sheep_herder’s question about court-ordered treatment against a doctor’s or hospital’s recommendation is pretty rare, even in this era, people viewing their opinion as valuable (or more) than their doctor’s isn’t new. EPG, who’d withhold information from his doctors to test them, is a glorious example. “VIP” care is often the worse care, because it caters to external pressure rather than standard medical decision making. 
 

Second opinions are good. But overriding a doctor’s recommendations for one’s own usually isn’t.

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29 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

Sorry for this :(   They do screw up, they're human.

I have a sister who is a physicians assistant and was coordinating her car with the Dr.  She asked several times on the blood thinners. She was 100% against pulling her off of them so soon after the procedure but the Dr’s instructions said to pull them so she did. Bam within a day she had a stroke… 

She regretted for years for not getting a second opinion. 

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16 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I have a sister who is a physicians assistant and was coordinating her car with the Dr.  She asked several times on the blood thinners. She was 100% against pulling her off of them so soon after the procedure but the Dr’s instructions said to pull them so she did. Bam within a day she had a stroke… 

She regretted for years for not getting a second opinion. 

I have known for years that when you get a leg or arm or nut operation, you write "Good leg" or "bad leg" or arm or nut with a marker to be sure they don't screw up and operate on the good part vs the bad part.

I think it gets really difficult when you have hundreds of prescriptions going on at once, just to try to find the ones causing the issues.

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I am kind of conditioned to trust the medical professionals as that is their field of study. When I broke my collarbone while cycling, the Orthopod told me to stop riding the skinny tire bikes. I told him to stay in his lane. Don’t tell me about riding bikes and I won’t tell you how to operate. Another time Wo7 was having sinus pain and we went to the ER in Fairfield Ohio. The nurse asked Wo7, on a scale of 1 - 10 where is your pain level? Two to three was the answer. Nurse left the room and came back with a syringe and poked her in the arm. What was that? Morphine for the pain. Don’t do that again without asking if you can! It was Ohio. 

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