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Did my race dictate this interaction or not?


ChrisL

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1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Sadly, I think the reason we have "race" or other selections on birth certificates or other forms is that it helps do a couple things we really ought not need to do.  For one, it prevents the classic, "it's not a problem" excuse/lie, and it also shows trends and trouble spots.  It becomes a little bit of a chicken or egg situation, where asking/pointing out discrimination emphasizes it to some, creates defensiveness in others, and may have negative as well as positive impacts.

Inherently, black, white, hispanic, asian, whatever are ALL literally equal.  Humans through and through.  But...if you live in a place where a comment like, "why do you hang out with that n****?" can be made without fear of being shamed or ostracized, then you can easily see that there are and continue to be challenges with content of character being placed below color of skin.  

The truth is that there are differences in ethnicities’ physical appearances. I think that’s why it’s indicated on birth cents or other docs. It’s the same as writing color of eyes or hair, weight, height, sex, etc. on those documents. They are physical descriptors that allow us to be recognizable to others. My thoughts anyway.

I can tell you that if the comment you referenced was made to me, the person making it would soon fully understand my position. Speaking from experience. 

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8 hours ago, Page Turner said:

 

...we can talk about race in here ? :huh: I hope we can talk about religion and ancestry soon, because I have a lot of stuff I've been saving up about being a kid with a Jewish mother, and going to Catholic schools for 12 years. :angry:

 

But in answer to your question, yeah, race is a bigger deal in a lot of places than most of us are willing to suppose.  But I might have a warped sense of it, because I grew up as a white minority in a predominately black section of town.  Race was a huge deal in D.C. back when I lived there, and I don't think it's changed much.  Race is a factor in a lot of what I see happening in Sacramento. But it's les so than what I grew up with.  So I guess maybe that's an improvement.  I guess working for the fire department didn't help my view of this much, either. :(

I don't have a problem if you mention about going to Catholic schools when your mother is Jewish. Clearly she was more "liberal" by allowing you to go there or? Or maybe it was just limited choice and proximity of school for you, Page?

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2 hours ago, Zealot said:

The truth is that there are differences in ethnicities’ physical appearances. I think that’s why it’s indicated on birth cents or other docs. It’s the same as writing color of eyes or hair, weight, height, sex, etc. on those documents. They are physical descriptors that allow us to be recognizable to others. My thoughts anyway.

I can tell you that if the comment you referenced was made to me, the person making it would soon fully understand my position. Speaking from experience. 

We are fighting to overcome a hardwired instinct developed over centuries involving tribalism.  We are safe with ours but others may not be so safe for us.  Survival instincts don't always go away when the world moves on.

When you merge that with peoples need to climb up the ladder on the backs of others you have a problem.

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I think it's awful to identify "bringing the neighborhood down to their level" with race.

I've had people of all races bring the neighborhoods of me or family members up or down.

But some people have a hard time getting rid of the biases that were ingrained in them from childhood.

I have a White neighbor, who is a serious and frequent Catholic churchgoer, whose yard looks like a jungle who doesn't like the Hispanic family that lives across the street, who have improved their house and yard and it looks great.

Fortunately, most White people are not like that.

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5 minutes ago, MickinMD said:

Fortunately, most White people are not like that.

And that's where that "data gathering" helps out a bit.  Accumulate a bunch of data, review it, and see where the holes are and/or the indications of "hinkeyness" come into play.

Sometimes, when good folks believe there isn't a problem, that might be because they have too narrow a view - ie "I would never do that" becomes a broader "no one would do that" sort of thing.

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6 hours ago, Zealot said:

When did you live in DC, @Page Turner?

 

 

...I was born at the old George Washington U hospital in 1949, and shortly thereafter my parents moved us out to Southeast, just shy of the Maryland line.  (I could walk down to one of the original DC. boundary marker stones placed by George Washington. when he surveyed the lines.)

We lived there until my father died in '67.  My parents never bought a house, and my mom ended up living out in suburban Va, and Md. for another 30 years or so.

 

I went back after the service, to the U of Md, College Park from fall of '71 to about '76, when I finally decided I couldn't stand living there any more.  I did a number of jobs to pay for all that, but the most regular one was driving a D.C. cab.  That was pretty educational.:o

 

I lived through some interesting stuff in D.C., including both the desegregation of the Glen Echo Amusement Park swimming pool, King's speech at the Lincoln Memorial, the burning of large portions of the inner city during the riots after King's assassination, and most of the Vietnam era demonstrations.

 

I can still remember going downtown with my mom, on the streetcar, to shop at the department stores (no suburban malls then).  We would always stop at the Planter's Peanut store on F street, buy some peanuts in the shell, and then walk over to Lafayette park across from the White House, to feed the squirrels and the pigeons.  I haven't been back to visit since I moved my mother out here to California about 20 years ago, but it's a different place than the one I grew up in.  One of my favorite family photos is one of my father shaking hands with Hubert Humphrey, for some government efficiency award he won.  That was a looooooong time back. :)

 

I do think that the place is less racist now than it was then, but only marginally.  It would be hard for it to have gotten worse.

 

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3 hours ago, shootingstar said:

I don't have a problem if you mention about going to Catholic schools when your mother is Jewish. Clearly she was more "liberal" by allowing you to go there or? Or maybe it was just limited choice and proximity of school for you, Page?

...my dad was a devout Catholic. Part of the deal for being allowed to marry a non-Catholic back then was they both had to sign something that said I would be raised Catholic. I think the real reason I ended up in Catholic school was because the D.C. schools had been desegregated by then, and they were pretty chaotic environments.

Catholic schools, OTOH, were still almost exclusively white. There were zero black kids in my 8 years of elementary school, and two in my high school.

It's hard to describe this to people who did not live through it, because it seems unbelievable. Hell, I can hardly believe it, and I was there. :)

 

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4 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

Catholic schools, OTOH, were still almost exclusively white. There were zero black kids in my 8 years of elementary school, and two in my high school.

We had one oriental kid in high school and a couple of Hispanic kids. Ironically the school was right next to a black neighborhood. I think that you had to be Catholic to attend that school back then. That and the price of tuition probably kept blacks out of it.

I think that the 'Everybody's a Little Racist' song from the play AVENUE Q may apply here. I was brought up in an era and area where racism was rampant. Every once in a while I'll catch myself having thoughts and thinking WTF did that come from?

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7 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...I was born at the old George Washington U hospital in 1949, and shortly thereafter my parents moved us out to Southeast, just shy of the Maryland line.  (I could walk down to one of the original DC. boundary marker stones placed by George Washington. when he surveyed the lines.)

We lived there until my father died in '67.  My parents never bought a house, and my mom ended up living out in suburban Va, and Md. for another 30 years or so.

 

I went back after the service, to the U of Md, College Park from fall of '71 to about '76, when I finally decided I couldn't stand living there any more.  I did a number of jobs to pay for all that, but the most regular one was driving a D.C. cab.  That was pretty educational.:o

 

I lived through some interesting stuff in D.C., including both the desegregation of the Glen Echo Amusement Park swimming pool, King's speech at the Lincoln Memorial, the burning of large portions of the inner city during the riots after King's assassination, and most of the Vietnam era demonstrations.

 

I can still remember going downtown with my mom, on the streetcar, to shop at the department stores (no suburban malls then).  We would always stop at the Planter's Peanut store on F street, buy some peanuts in the shell, and then walk over to Lafayette park across from the White House, to feed the squirrels and the pigeons.  I haven't been back to visit since I moved my mother out here to California about 20 years ago, but it's a different place than the one I grew up in.  One of my favorite family photos is one of my father shaking hands with Hubert Humphrey, for some government efficiency award he won.  That was a looooooong time back. :)

 

I do think that the place is less racist now than it was then, but only marginally.  It would be hard for it to have gotten worse.

 

Thank you for that. 😊 Quite a bit of history indeed that was part of your experience.  I grew up in Front Royal. The interesting thing is we called traveling to DC “going down the country”. I believe that references going toward where the river meets the ocean. Front Royal is on the Shenandoah, which merges with the Potomac.

I recall the racial tensions in our town in the early 70s. It was a stronghold to a lot of old ideologies. Some ugly events occurred. 

I left there and didn’t want to ever go back.

I agree, I think DC is a very different place than when you lived there. Even than when I lived there. 

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1 minute ago, JerrySTL said:

We had one oriental kid in high school and a couple of Hispanic kids. Ironically the school was right next to a black neighborhood. I think that you had to be Catholic to attend that school back then. That and the price of tuition probably kept blacks out of it.

 

...my Catholic high school had been in the same location since the 1860's, and the brick townhouses that surrounded it had become one of the worst ghetto neighborhoods in D.C. during that time. But the ingenious solution they came up with was to spend 30 years raising funds for "redevelopment" at the school, buy up the neighborhood houses at rock bottom prices (it was a ghetto, after all), and tear them all down to build an outdoor stadium and athletic complex.  :happyanim:

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11 minutes ago, Zealot said:

Thank you for that. 😊 Quite a bit of history indeed that was part of your experience.  I grew up in Front Royal. The interesting thing is we called traveling to DC “going down the country”. I believe that references going toward where the river meets the ocean. Front Royal is on the Shenandoah, which merges with the Potomac.

I recall the racial tensions in our town in the early 70s. It was a stronghold to a lot of old ideologies. Some ugly events occurred. 

I left there and didn’t want to ever go back.

I agree, I think DC is a very different place than when you lived there. Even than when I lived there. 

NOVA is where I got kicked out of a bar.  The bar tender walked up to the table & said you boys can stay (pointing to the white guys) but your friend better leave (pointing to me). Shortly after that someone threw a beer bottle at me so we all left.

My wife (then girlfriend) got an earful from a woman in a grocery store once.  Why I’d think you would have better sense than to be with a boy like him… 

During her last visit the MIL was ranting about the taking down of the monuments in Richmond.  It led to a discussion on racism in the south. She figured racism ended in the 60’s.    

I told her you have no clue on the matter as it doesn’t affect you. Just because segregation ended doesn’t mean racism ended.  Ask your daughter what happened in a grocery store in 1987.  She was dumbfounded that that had happened. I then told her about the bar incident. She said several times in VA, not in Alabama or Kentucky??? (Other bases I was assigned). YES in VA…. She reluctantly ended the rant about the monuments. 

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51 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

.I was born at the old George Washington U hospital

me to. 

 

My grandparents lived in Bethesda.  My family lived in Hyattsville at the time of my birth.  My grandparents owned a book bindery in DC.  I spent a lot of time in a large, musty shop at 815 Munroe St. N.E. near the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

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9 minutes ago, Airehead said:

me to. 

 

My grandparents lived in Bethesda.  My family lived in Hyattsville at the time of my birth.  My grandparents owned a book bindery in DC.  I spent a lot of time in a large, musty shop at 815 Munroe St. N.E. near the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

I’m not sure why/how buy my wife was also born in DC, Walter Reed.   My FIL worked for the Navy as a civilian but I don’t believe he was at the time of her birth. Not sure if the hospital is available to civilian non dependents? 

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Just now, ChrisL said:

I’m not sure why/how buy my wife was also born in DC, Walter Reed.   My FIL worked for the Navy as a civilian but I don’t believe he was at the time of her birth. Not sure if the hospital is available to civilian non dependents? 

For that matter… They got married at the Ft Myer Old Chapel.  Not sure how they pulled that off????

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8 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

NOVA is where I got kicked out of a bar.  The bar tender walked up to the table & said you boys can stay (pointing to the white guys) but your friend better leave (pointing to me). Shortly after that someone threw a beer bottle at me so we all left.

My wife (then girlfriend) got an earful from a woman in a grocery store once.  Why I’d think you would have better sense than to be with a boy like him… 

During her last visit the MIL was ranting about the taking down of the monuments in Richmond.  It led to a discussion on racism in the south. She figured racism ended in the 60’s.    

I told her you have no clue on the matter as it doesn’t affect you. Just because segregation ended doesn’t mean racism ended.  Ask your daughter what happened in a grocery store in 1987.  She was dumbfounded that that had happened. I then told her about the bar incident. She said several times in VA, not in Alabama or Kentucky??? (Other bases I was assigned). YES in VA…. She reluctantly ended the rant about the monuments. 

Bouncers kicked my friend out of a bar once. I got there and he was standing outside. I walked up, politely asked, “what’s the problem?” He stated that they wouldn’t let him in. I said, “come  with me.” As I approached the bouncers, they parted, we walked in and had a great evening.  FTR, I don’t make these stories up. I know they have to sound like BS sometimes, but they aren’t. I had a serious rep in those days and a lot of anger. 

Was in a gym that was predominantly black. As I crossed the court (multiuse), suddenly I was surrounded by a whole group of folks who didn’t want the white boy in there. I didn’t back down. We had a scuffle and at the end of it, I’d gained some respect. 

I was approached publicly by a very angry young black man shouting epithets and slurs about white people. He came straight at me with a weapon in his hand. I stood my ground. And it was over. 

Sometimes, I truly believe God watches out for the thick headed and stupid (me) among us.  

If someone hates ‘me’, I hope I truly make them search for something deeper to base that ire on than simply the color of my skin. 

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22 minutes ago, Airehead said:

me to. 

 

My grandparents lived in Bethesda.  My family lived in Hyattsville at the time of my birth.  My grandparents owned a book bindery in DC.  I spent a lot of time in a large, musty shop at 815 Munroe St. N.E. near the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

... :) I used to ride through Hyattsville daily, on my way to school at U of Md on my Raleigh 3 speed, coming from Mt Rainier, Md, where I lived in an upstairs apartment in an old house next to the movie theater, that had been turned into a Pentecostal church. It had a flashing neon cross that said Jesus Saves. I could watch it flashing at night from one of my windows.

jesussaves.gif.9401b30edd3e3e3dd6114b0cbb7d0056.gif

In the other direction, one of the ways I rode it into D.C. was past the Shrine.

Of all the places I lived around D.C., Mt Rainier was by far my favorite.  I wish I had lived there when the streetcar line was still running. That must have been fun.

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Meanwhile coming back to the present... 2021

Whenever we (office workers) for our organization are required to return back to office  building, I'm not especially looking forward waiting around in winter for train  while people wander about. I feel safer cycling to work around the city and the odd time I've had to drop by the building to print stuff off, spend a few hrs. because remoting into network didn't work...  The attacks on Asians in North America during covid, usually have been the victim is alone/unaccompanied or is smaller in build.

My nieces and nephews are aware they can "pass" to be white..which means they can hear and witness things that are racist because others may not know they were partially non-white.  This is why it is important they develop a clear understanding and above all, comfort level of their own racial identify, understand 2 parts of their family lineage and the different overlapping histories that  comes with it. And the fact it is advantage, though there will be times, they wish they didn't have to explain anything /defend anything.

This year, our organization did have some employee group sessions on discussing how to change dialogue, inclusivity. Over 100+ employees joined in the session. I found it (not surprisingly) not great. 3 people were co-facilitating,....1 was South Asian, 1 was black and latter was white. Alot of participants in chat were....white. I knew there were a number of Asian employees, etc. there.  I'm just telling you all, just the topic is complex that it's hard enough for those of us who have experienced certain things in a career, to even properly and neutrally explain what happenend.

 

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Of course, I do this to my resume...always for my entire career:  Minorities Who 'Whiten' Job Resumes Get More Interviews - HBS Working Knowledge  

Of course, I include cycling in extra-curricular....not just because I live it as a lifestyle for many years....but hey, cycling is the recent new "golf", as business networking activity.

For instance, all the valuable volunteer work I've done where it's participating in volunteer board meetings/discussions on race relations, perception, building understanding with other parties ....it's not reflected at all  my resume. I would have to name 2 organizations which includes ethnicity/race.    Even if I didn't name the organizations, just saying race relations, would probably 'cause discomfort among some recruiters and peg me as a rabble-rouser.  I'm not that dumb.  Corporate cultural fit is what they are looking for also.

But learning how to articulate difficult concepts to others and learning from others how they speak and put forth a position in a logical argument, has been instrumental in growing myself and skills transferable to my paid jobs.  The article covers a research study done at the University of Toronto, undertaken by Harvard Business School where resumes the last names of applicants were changed to Eurocentric (not  asian-sounding) and just to compare shortlisting by resume screeners....  it's very interesting and does show bias ...just even on the last name.

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1 hour ago, shootingstar said:

Of course, I do this to my resume...always for my entire career:  Minorities Who 'Whiten' Job Resumes Get More Interviews - HBS Working Knowledge  

Of course, I include cycling in extra-curricular....not just because I live it as a lifestyle for many years....but hey, cycling is the recent new "golf", as business networking activity.

For instance, all the valuable volunteer work I've done where it's participating in volunteer board meetings/discussions on race relations, perception, building understanding with other parties ....it's not reflected at all  my resume. I would have to name 2 organizations which includes ethnicity/race.    Even if I didn't name the organizations, just saying race relations, would probably 'cause discomfort among some recruiters and peg me as a rabble-rouser.  I'm not that dumb.  Corporate cultural fit is what they are looking for also.

But learning how to articulate difficult concepts to others and learning from others how they speak and put forth a position in a logical argument, has been instrumental in growing myself and skills transferable to my paid jobs.  The article covers a research study done at the University of Toronto, undertaken by Harvard Business School where resumes the last names of applicants were changed to Eurocentric (not  asian-sounding) and just to compare shortlisting by resume screeners....  it's very interesting and does show bias ...just even on the last name.

I bet the opposite can also be applied for people of European descent who live in Asian countries, no? If they sound or appear too ‘white’, they might not fit the predominant corporate picture either.

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3 minutes ago, Zealot said:

I bet the opposite can also be applied for people of European descent who live in Asian countries, no? If they sound or appear too ‘white’, they might not fit the predominant corporate picture either.

YOu know what I've noticed who is selected from North America for  Asian overseas work assignments or reading work profiles for white guys who do well in certain Asian companies..... I think it's guys who don't look thuggish/come across as too bro macho.  I really mean this.

Dearie  for instance, had a naturally gracious manner that was naturally respectful (he was raised by a mother who expected manners of her sons) and...he had a softer voice compared to other men. Also my 2 white brothers-in-law also naturally have low-key non-ultra macho personnae....one plays ice hockey often and the other does jog, did several marathons.  All 3 guys have/had blue eyes.

Any white guy can't dominate with their personality and style in those countries, to be successful in business and other areas of life there. A white person still has a elevated position in those societies....no matter how modern /savvy certain societies can be.  There is no scientific basis for my remarks, but just what I've noticed ....you have learn to "feel" of the overall culture in power, status, male and female roles. In my personal opinion, as a white person you should be there to listen when working in those societies....alot. Not demand, direct everything your way.

 

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8 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

YOu know what I've noticed who is selected from North America for  Asian overseas work assignments or reading work profiles for white guys who do well in certain Asian companies..... I think it's guys who don't look thuggish/come across as too bro macho.  I really mean this.

Dearie  for instance, had a naturally gracious manner that was naturally respectful (he was raised by a mother who expected manners of her sons) and...he had a softer voice compared to other men. Also my 2 white brothers-in-law also naturally have low-key non-ultra macho personnae....one plays ice hockey often and the other does jog, did several marathons.  All 3 guys have/had blue eyes.

Any white guy can't dominate with their personality and style in those countries, to be successful in business and other areas of life there. A white person still has a elevated position in those societies....no matter how modern /savvy certain societies can be.  There is no scientific basis for my remarks, but just what I've noticed ....you have learn to "feel" of the overall culture in power, status, male and female roles. In my personal opinion, as a white person you should be there to listen when working in those societies....alot. Not demand, direct everything your way.

 

Interesting.

I was involved in a large joint construction project in Dalian. In the field, the American and Chinese trades were on mostly equal footing. Except the Americans were held to the stricter OSHA guidelines we have here in the west.  But in the corporate sphere, the Americans were definitely lesser.  The Chinese would hold board meetings and specifically bar anyone who wasn’t Chinese.  Was an interesting dynamic. 

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1 hour ago, Zealot said:

I bet the opposite can also be applied for people of European descent who live in Asian countries, no? If they sound or appear too ‘white’, they might not fit the predominant corporate picture either.

When riding on a train in Japan I saw an elderly lady with two shopping bags standing.  I slid over closer to womaxx and made room for her to sit.  After seeing what I did she turned around and wouldn't look in my direction.  Oldest son who was living there and teaching whispered "she won't sit next to you.  You're white".  That was interesting.

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26 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

When riding on a train in Japan I saw an elderly lady with two shopping bags standing.  I slid over closer to womaxx and made room for her to sit.  After seeing what I did she turned around and wouldn't look in my direction.  Oldest son who was living there and teaching whispered "she won't sit next to you.  You're white".  That was interesting.

It is sad that a simple act of kindness or courtesy can be rejected on such a basis. 

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36 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

When riding on a train in Japan I saw an elderly lady with two shopping bags standing.  I slid over closer to womaxx and made room for her to sit.  After seeing what I did she turned around and wouldn't look in my direction.  Oldest son who was living there and teaching whispered "she won't sit next to you.  You're white".  That was interesting.

I've heard that also...she is an older person and not familiar.  There are cartoons on this.

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Sadly the color of skin is something that people can not see past when they open their big mouths. 
I have witness this first hand while in college and I was the token white kid in class.. The teachers of that fine inner city technical college HATED me for being somewhat smart and killing their bell curve. 

After moving to Texas, my youngest started getting harassed in school by some of the other kids. He was adopted many years ago and is mostly black/hispanic. At that time the school did not know me from a hole in the ground, but they sure all know me know! 
My son was being blamed for things other kids were doing, being picked on by other kids, and so on... I made MANY calls to the school about this and how it needed to stop. The teachers were notified and still did nothing.. a few times he came home saying even the teachers started treating him different.
I then called the Asst principal and gave him a what for.. told him I have just gave my son permission to whoop the crap out of the next kid talking shit to him, I will also be there after it happens to pick him up and take him out for ice cream. 

Low and behold.. two weeks later I get a call from the school.. My son bitch slapped another kid for talking crap. 
I rolled up to their front doors on my motorcycle (that included up onto the sidewalk, across their lawn, and parked it right by the flag pole. Walked into the school wearing my helmet with the mirrored visor still down demanding to talk to the principal. 
before he got to me I had my helmet on the counter and he looked a tad shook that I was the father. HE looked at my jacket and my Bikers against Bullying patch and took a deep breath.. He just released I was not playing around anymore.. After our short conversation of my child not being sent home for three days and how my son will still attend classes, he got the picture. I told my son to ride his bike home and get ready to go get ice cream.. The asst principal thought I was joking on the phone about it.. he learnt that I was not. 

I do not put up with crap from anyone no matter their skin color.. I see people for who they are.. if you are an A-hole, I will treat you as one! 

Fast forward a couple years and we get the COVID lockdowns. The teacher plan a parade to see all the students.. as my kids were outside waving at all the teachers.. the last car was the asst principal.. as soon as he saw me, his smile was washed away, and he dropped his head and kept driving. 
My wife laughed and said she wished she had it on video. 

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1 hour ago, Zealot said:

Interesting.

I was involved in a large joint construction project in Dalian. In the field, the American and Chinese trades were on mostly equal footing. Except the Americans were held to the stricter OSHA guidelines we have here in the west.  But in the corporate sphere, the Americans were definitely lesser.  The Chinese would hold board meetings and specifically bar anyone who wasn’t Chinese.  Was an interesting dynamic. 

I totally believe our OSHA requirements (not guidelines) in North America are far greater...with inspection by regulatory authorities when needed, if site construction safety manager is not managing this.  I wonder why  the  mainland Chinese barred anyone who wasn't Chinese/Chinese-speaking? from board meetings. 

 

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1 hour ago, Zealot said:

Interesting.

I was involved in a large joint construction project in Dalian. In the field, the American and Chinese trades were on mostly equal footing. Except the Americans were held to the stricter OSHA guidelines we have here in the west.  But in the corporate sphere, the Americans were definitely lesser.  The Chinese would hold board meetings and specifically bar anyone who wasn’t Chinese.  Was an interesting dynamic. 

At a $1 billion construction project where I worked, I reported to the QA engineering manager. His previous construction project was in  Taiwan for several years. He was from Quebec, so was bilingual. He was tall, long shoulder length hair (yes an engineer) that looked like greying Fabio, but had an understated natural voice....again he was someone all the guys listened....even some of the macho Germans.  Sure he loved playing ice hockey,....but style of management wasn't macho/paternalistic.  Oh yea, he had Chinese girlfriend (from Taiwan).

I'm just trying to explain cultural dynamics that work if a person understands and can navigate naturally.  It helps to grow up and interact in multicultural /multi-racial social situations for many years. Canada's strength, especially in the big cities....is a multicultural society ....we promote it.  This is why it disgusts me when people bitch about immigrants. It saves our society from becoming too rigid. Yea sure, there's polarization however one wants to define in any society.

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Ya know, I worked at a steel company as an entry section operator. Started out as an over head crane operator. Lots of white guys who had daddies that were steel workers here in Fontana, they call it Fontucky because it was so white and racist at one time.

Anyway, I had 2 crane operators who would serve up my 40,000 lb steel coils for loading onto the line. One game, James, was a cool guy, but black. The others were all white and one woman who was serving up more than steel coils to some of the guys. James was a cool guy, didn't get mixed up in the Kool-Aide. So the others didn't care for him much and he was the newer guy, church going guy.

I am the guy who wants everything positioned a certain way so that it is much quicker loading onto the line as we have only so many seconds, maybe a minute to load the coil. James would do exactly what I asked of him. When the others were away goofining off, I could always count on James. Yeah, he had a slow cruise looking strut when we walked but he was never behind. Always ahead of the game and ready to help me out, or help me prepare the next coil.

But for some reason, the others had it out for him. Out of nowhere, one day, I was called into the office by the managers. "So, tell us about James." They told me that the others had complained that he was not a team player. I told them exactly what I mentioned earlier. They said they were surprised by what the others said and wanted to know from me firsthand what was going on. I told them I'd rather have 1 James helping me out than the other 3 together. They said thanks, I just saved his job and that they were suspect of what the others had been saying. 

Pretty sad, all I can think of it that it was his skin color and his strut. But the guy was a great worker and helper.

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9 hours ago, shootingstar said:

At a $1 billion construction project where I worked, I reported to the QA engineering manager. His previous construction project was in  Taiwan for several years. He was from Quebec, so was bilingual. He was tall, long shoulder length hair (yes an engineer) that looked like greying Fabio, but had an understated natural voice....again he was someone all the guys listened....even some of the macho Germans.  Sure he loved playing ice hockey,....but style of management wasn't macho/paternalistic.  Oh yea, he had Chinese girlfriend (from Taiwan).

I'm just trying to explain cultural dynamics that work if a person understands and can navigate naturally.  

@shootingstar I understand what you’re saying, to a point. 

 Without intending to start an argument, I’d like to point out a couple things. In this post there are several stereotypes utilized to make a point of multiculturalism and/or inclusiveness. ‘Even ... the Macho Germans’, ‘loved playing ice hockey’, ‘macho/paternalistic’

These comments represent negative stereotypes. Honestly, what I see here is  a possible distorted view of masculinity. There is nothing inherently negative about being macho, paternalistic or enjoying ice hockey. But the use of these phrases seems to be with the implication that they might be. 

Machismo can be very beneficial in a community/society. It can guide a man to be honorable, loyal and brave. 

Paternalism is necessary in healthy society. The combination of paternal and maternal leadership styles completes a grander picture of humanity than either one alone and constitutes complimentary dynamics necessary in true leadership. One great problem I see in our modern world is the huge lack of paternal guidance within families.

And an enjoyment of ice hockey, football , boxing or any other traditional masculine contact sport can also be healthy for a man to develop senses of comraderie, sportsmanship, teamwork, fair play, tenacity, and courage. 

Many of these things, much like any tool, can be weilded for positive or negative results. 

As for being multicultural, I have absolutely no issues being so. I count myself blessed and very fortunate to have the experiences I have. I absolutely adore learning about other cultures and interacting with people whose life experiences differ from my own. That love started at a very young age for me. And I’ve had the honor of being counted a friend in circles outside my own roots.

But I also advocate for cultural preservation. I’d hate to see individual cultural traditions and heritage disappear under a much larger umbrella.

And on this topic of prejudice, I think it’s become societally chic to point out ‘western white male’ issues while ignoring the fact that prejudice runs through the entire gamut of human experience and transcends all cultures. Yes, white European history is rife with its atrocities. But so is the history of every other culture on earth.

Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Mehmed Talaat, Temujin, Joseph Stalin, The TNI, Pinochet, and I could go on...

All of it breaks my heart. All of it infuriates me. 

And a woman refusing to acknowledge a man’s presence is every bit as prejudicial as any of the other anecdotes mentioned in all the posts above. 

None of this is meant as insult. Just heavy thoughts on a heavy topic. 

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1 hour ago, Zealot said:

@shootingstar I understand what you’re saying, to a point. 

 Without intending to start an argument, I’d like to point out a couple things. In this post there are several stereotypes utilized to make a point of multiculturalism and/or inclusiveness. ‘Even ... the Macho Germans’, ‘loved playing ice hockey’, ‘macho/paternalistic’

These comments represent negative stereotypes. Honestly, what I see here is  a possible distorted view of masculinity. There is nothing inherently negative about being macho, paternalistic or enjoying ice hockey. But the use of these phrases seems to be with the implication that they might be. 

Machismo can be very beneficial in a community/society. It can guide a man to be honorable, loyal and brave. 

Paternalism is necessary in healthy society. The combination of paternal and maternal leadership styles completes a grander picture of humanity than either one alone and constitutes complimentary dynamics necessary in true leadership. One great problem I see in our modern world is the huge lack of paternal guidance within families.

And an enjoyment of ice hockey, football , boxing or any other traditional masculine contact sport can also be healthy for a man to develop senses of comraderie, sportsmanship, teamwork, fair play, tenacity, and courage. 

Many of these things, much like any tool, can be weilded for positive or negative results. 

As for being multicultural, I have absolutely no issues being so. I count myself blessed and very fortunate to have the experiences I have. I absolutely adore learning about other cultures and interacting with people whose life experiences differ from my own. That love started at a very young age for me. And I’ve had the honor of being counted a friend in circles outside my own roots.

But I also advocate for cultural preservation. I’d hate to see individual cultural traditions and heritage disappear under a much larger umbrella.

And on this topic of prejudice, I think it’s become societally chic to point out ‘western white male’ issues while ignoring the fact that prejudice runs through the entire gamut of human experience and transcends all cultures. Yes, white European history is rife with its atrocities. But so is the history of every other culture on earth.

Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Mehmed Talaat, Temujin, Joseph Stalin, The TNI, Pinochet, and I could go on...

All of it breaks my heart. All of it infuriates me. 

And a woman refusing to acknowledge a man’s presence is every bit as prejudicial as any of the other anecdotes mentioned in all the posts above. 

None of this is meant as insult. Just heavy thoughts on a heavy topic. 

I have to go back to work, Zealot.

I was explaining what working styles work better than other styles. Off the job, a person can be whatever they want to be....as long as they don't hurt others.

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3 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

I have to go back to work, Zealot.

I was explaining what working styles work better than other styles. Off the job, a person can be whatever they want to be....as long as they don't hurt others.

Understood. No response is/was necessary. 

I wish you peace, this day.

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