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Sometimes logic and stupidity are a fine line.


Wilbur
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Go to solution Solved by Thaddeus Kosciuszko,

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A Tory MP is questioning why B.C. is considering allowing vaccinated COVID-positive health-care workers to return to work but not those who are unvaccinated.

“So, vaccinated but Covid positive workers are told to keep working, while unvaccinated workers are forced to stay home even if they are Covid-free? If this is really about protecting the system, why not give daily tests to all & let all Covid-free workers keep it running safely?” Mark Strahl said on Twitter Thursday.

Strahl, who represents the riding of Chilliwack-Hope in British Columbia, was responding to a comment made by the province’s top doctor Bonnie Henry, who told reporters at a press conference Wednesday that officials were weighing the possibility of letting some health-care workers with mild symptoms go back to work, if necessary.

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2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I don't care who gets sick so long as I can fly to my cruise ship departure port.

We are sailing out of New Orleans in February. WoJSTL is signed up for a 10K the day of departure so we are going to make it a 2-day drive.

However we might just blow the whole thing off if Covid looks bad. Our trip insurance probably won't cover it if we decide not to go, but I'd rather lose a few thousand $ than get sick.

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2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I don't care who gets sick so long as I can fly to my cruise ship departure port.

Net jets and charter companies are having record breaking years.  So are aircraft manufacturers.  Many are just done with COVID restrictions.  I deadheaded on Air Canada yesterday and the flights were sold to capacity.  The world is mobile again. 

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2 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

We are sailing out of New Orleans in February. WoJSTL is signed up for a 10K the day of departure so we are going to make it a 2-day drive.

However we might just blow the whole thing off if Covid looks bad. Our trip insurance probably won't cover it if we decide not to go, but I'd rather lose a few thousand $ than get sick.

CDC advises that you skip the cruuse no matter what your vaccination/booster status.  Those ships had infectious disease problems even before rona.

Estimates now are that peak winter rona will happen in 6 to 8 weeks unless another mutation takes place.

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43 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I don't care who gets sick so long as I can fly mask free to my cruise ship departure port.

 

35 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

CDC advises that you skip the cruuse no matter what your vaccination/booster status.  Those ships had infectious disease problems even before rona.

Estimates now are that peak winter rona will happen in 6 to 8 weeks unless another mutation takes place.

From what I'm hearing, you have to be vaccinated to be on a ship.. there are currently over 68 ships with outbrakes on them and they are all just circling outside of Florida without going to ports. I miss the days of the old ships and no virus

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1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

Net jets and charter companies are having record breaking years.  So are aircraft manufacturers.  Many are just done with COVID restrictions.  I deadheaded on Air Canada yesterday and the flights were sold to capacity.  The world is mobile again. 

The US economy is on fire, so you would sort of expect this, wouldn't you?  Literally, going on 12 years of a bull rush.  Folks can't figure out what the heck to do with their money anymore, and travel as well as buying more and more of stuff is pretty much what we do best.  

39 minutes ago, KrAzY said:

From what I'm hearing, you have to be vaccinated to be on a ship.

Yep - pretty much what the cruise industry decided despite states like Florida pushing back against that sort of thing.  What you'll find, I'm sure, is that the outbreaks on ships on non-lethal and likely non-ER types of outbreak that are exactly why we try for high vax rates.  For cruise lines, it's more the issue of where they can go right now.  If a place like Curacao has a low vax rate (and thus high at-risk population), they're unlikely to let a ship dock and unload even a single passenger. So, a cruise, low risk as it is to the vaxxed passengers & crew, still poses a risk to a low-vaxxed island.

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2 hours ago, JerrySTL said:

We are sailing out of New Orleans in February. WoJSTL is signed up for a 10K the day of departure so we are going to make it a 2-day drive.

However we might just blow the whole thing off if Covid looks bad. Our trip insurance probably won't cover it if we decide not to go, but I'd rather lose a few thousand $ than get sick.

I would do a different type of vacation trip. Not a cruise on this point in time. One is living on a cruise ship.

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2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

The US economy is on fire, so you would sort of expect this, wouldn't you?  Literally, going on 12 years of a bull rush.  Folks can't figure out what the heck to do with their money anymore, and travel as well as buying more and more of stuff is pretty much what we do best.  

Yep - pretty much what the cruise industry decided despite states like Florida pushing back against that sort of thing.  What you'll find, I'm sure, is that the outbreaks on ships on non-lethal and likely non-ER types of outbreak that are exactly why we try for high vax rates.  For cruise lines, it's more the issue of where they can go right now.  If a place like Curacao has a low vax rate (and thus high at-risk population), they're unlikely to let a ship dock and unload even a single passenger. So, a cruise, low risk as it is to the vaxxed passengers & crew, still poses a risk to a low-vaxxed island.

Nobody cares.  Rona is so last year.

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3 hours ago, Wilbur said:

A Tory MP is questioning why B.C. is considering allowing vaccinated COVID-positive health-care workers to return to work but not those who are unvaccinated.

“So, vaccinated but Covid positive workers are told to keep working, while unvaccinated workers are forced to stay home even if they are Covid-free? If this is really about protecting the system, why not give daily tests to all & let all Covid-free workers keep it running safely?” Mark Strahl said on Twitter Thursday.

Strahl, who represents the riding of Chilliwack-Hope in British Columbia, was responding to a comment made by the province’s top doctor Bonnie Henry, who told reporters at a press conference Wednesday that officials were weighing the possibility of letting some health-care workers with mild symptoms go back to work, if necessary.

 

This is what you get when feelings and hope take precedence over reason and reality.  With deference to Wilbur, that's a bit different than logic vs. stupidity.

I don't know how anyone could justify this, other than to completely ignore the question put to them.  And I believe we will see this type of behavior more frequently in the upcoming months.

 

Government officials are recognizing the public more and more is ignoring the guidelines and mandates anyway.  The CDC director recently said part of the reason for reducing the covid isolation time from 10 to 5 days was “It really had a lot to do with what we thought people would be able to tolerate.” 

I think, too, that government officials are finally recognizing that the tools they have relied upon aimed at eliminating or reducing the spread have not proven as effective as they wished or as they pronounced.  The public is weighing the claims vs. the reality they see.  The tools officials used from the beginning of the pandemic did not stop the last variant and did not appear to much slow the rapid spread of the latest variant.  Which is what the public expects in return for the efforts, changes, and sacrifices they have made and continue to make.  I suppose one might say it would have been worse without the guidelines and mandates, but that's a 'what if' that's hard to prove to the public.

These sorts of things, understandably, are uncomfortable for some people to hear. Those who say such things become unpopular, attracting to themselves sideways glances and labels such as 'anti-vaxxer' and 'anti-science' - whether said out loud or not.

In the end, if you look back and look closely you can see the patterns repeating and other patterns emerging, which in turn will help one set expectations on the probabilities of where the eventualities will pan out.

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2 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

 

This is what you get when feelings and hope take precedence over reason and reality.  With deference to Wilbur, that's a bit different than logic vs. stupidity.

I don't know how anyone could justify this, other than to completely ignore the question put to them.  And I believe we will see this type of behavior more frequently in the upcoming months.

 

Government officials are recognizing the public more and more is ignoring the guidelines and mandates anyway.  The CDC director recently said part of the reason for reducing the covid isolation time from 10 to 5 days was “It really had a lot to do with what we thought people would be able to tolerate.” 

I think, too, that government officials are finally recognizing that the tools they have relied upon aimed at eliminating or reducing the spread have not proven as effective as they wished or as they pronounced.  The public is weighing the claims vs. the reality they see.  The tools officials used from the beginning of the pandemic did not stop the last variant and did not appear to much slow the rapid spread of the latest variant.  Which is what the public expects in return for the efforts, changes, and sacrifices they have made and continue to make.  I suppose one might say it would have been worse without the guidelines and mandates, but that's a 'what if' that's hard to prove to the public.

These sorts of things, understandably, are uncomfortable for some people to hear. Those who say such things become unpopular, attracting to themselves sideways glances and labels such as 'anti-vaxxer' and 'anti-science' - whether said out loud or not.

In the end, if you look back and look closely you can see the patterns repeating and other patterns emerging, which in turn will help one set expectations on the probabilities of where the eventualities will pan out.

This simply ignores the fact that other countries don't have 800,000 plus dead from covid.  Something is very wrong here and IMO it's not what the government attempted to do.

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Hmm....we're forgetting alot of vaxed health care workers don't want to be near their unvaxed work colleagues. They work in close quarters to deal with patient transfers, lifts, procedures, etc.

Just to give a shot of reality for health care workers who have worked every single day at a hospital for nearly the past 18  months:

My sister, the hospital pharmacist voluntarily self-isolated right through Christmas Day, in a bedroom with bathroom in basement. She wasn't feeling well, not completely sure if she had covid. But wasn't taking chances cause of the following:

  • not visit her 94 yr. old mother-in-law who she /hubby check several times/wk. in her home to help
  • her son at university in another city, played a game of Ultimanum, frisbee with others in a gym. He's been doing it competitively for past 4 yrs.  He played unmasked. Afterwards he felt unwell, sniffles and fever.  His parents urged him to self-isolate and not come home for next 2 wks.  There's overdemand for covid  testing in Ontario right now. Can't get immediately tested. He might be coming home. (I didn't quite understand this one..)
  • her daughter found out 1 of her university dorm mates, got covid...after she lied to her roommates she did get tested after she was sick. So daughter was panicking abit  because she had no place to self-isolate. So parents told her to come home for holidays. So SHE had to self-isolate as soon as she got home.

It's pretty complicated for families with health care workers. Many go to great lengths to self-isolate because they need to work or protect their live-in loved ones.  We shouldn't be playing around at this stage for the health care workers for next  8 wks., until we see numbers go down.  We expect / want our health care workers to be the healthiest of all.  

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4 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

Nobody cares.  Rona is so last year.

It is not even real, I have reliably heard. That whole crowd sure has a lot of inside information, so they like to say whenever someone can’t get away from them quickly enough. 

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6 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

This simply ignores the fact that other countries don't have 800,000 plus dead from covid.  Something is very wrong here and IMO it's not what the government attempted to do.

 

It doesn't simply ignore anything. 

I'm sure people have heard the term 'covid weary'.  In the Civil War, the North became war weary after 2-1/2 to 3 years when everybody expected a quick victory over the South, and the shuffling through of commanding generals produced no significant victories.  The North's enthusiasm for the war sagged and became a significant problem not only for Lincoln's election but for even continuing the war.

FDR faced a similar issue in WWII, and it landed in Truman's lap when FDR died.  War weariness and a growing reluctance to make further sacrifices (as the American public saw 'sacrifices') were factors in deciding to drop the nuclear bombs on Japan to end the war quickly.

I'm actually surprised in our 'instant' society it's taken this long for this weariness pattern to become as prevalent as it has.  But there it is and if you wish you can find other similar examples as you look through history.  Human nature doesn't change all that much, and so the patterns don't either.

The patterns you see of politicians and other government officials relaxing restrictions or revising mandates means they're recognizing this 'covid weariness' and recognizing that guidelines and mandates that people ignore are useless.  They recognize if they continue to promulgate guidelines and mandates that are unenforceable because people choose to ignore them, then they - the politicians - become superfluous in the eyes of the public.  And we can't have that.

As far as the US having 800,000 deaths from covid, let's consider that number against the deaths reported by mainland China.  China has reported ~4,600 deaths from covid.  Those two pieces of data should put the spark in your head the possibility that not all countries are reporting covid deaths the same way, as each country is its own political entity with its own reasons for reporting deaths their own way.  (https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-maps-and-cases/)

I'm not saying the 800,000 US deaths from covid aren't real.  The number standing by itself implies exactly what Maxx is saying - something seems wrong.  And Maxx's opinion is solidly grounded in solely attributing it the government is wrong because...

If you think about it - when faced with a problem people tend to ask 'What is the solution?' not 'What are the solutionS?' (plural intentionally capitalized).  Laying blame solely on the government or seeking the government as the sole solution is wrong because the problem is too complex for one solution.  Certainly part of the blame and part of the solution lies with government, the government being one of several or many solutions.

There is another pattern worth noting, and one that should mystify no one.  Once it appears one variant has subsided and people believe they can 'get back to normal', another variant arises and the cycle repeats.  Given the virus is essentially a force of nature and man has not yet developed the means to prevent mutation (much less prevent infection), would one reasonably expect this pattern to continue?

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15 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Underwear Cant Stop A Fart And You Think A Mask Wo T-Shirt

Underwear can't stop a fist either.  Not the thing you make with your hand, but the gaseous fist!

Old English distinguished between a noisy "fart" and a silent-by-dead "fist!"

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5 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

 

It doesn't simply ignore anything. 

I'm sure people have heard the term 'covid weary'.  In the Civil War, the North became war weary after 2-1/2 to 3 years when everybody expected a quick victory over the South, and the shuffling through of commanding generals produced no significant victories.  The North's enthusiasm for the war sagged and became a significant problem not only for Lincoln's election but for even continuing the war.

FDR faced a similar issue in WWII, and it landed in Truman's lap when FDR died.  War weariness and a growing reluctance to make further sacrifices (as the American public saw 'sacrifices') were factors in deciding to drop the nuclear bombs on Japan to end the war quickly.

I'm actually surprised in our 'instant' society it's taken this long for this weariness pattern to become as prevalent as it has.  But there it is and if you wish you can find other similar examples as you look through history.  Human nature doesn't change all that much, and so the patterns don't either.

The patterns you see of politicians and other government officials relaxing restrictions or revising mandates means they're recognizing this 'covid weariness' and recognizing that guidelines and mandates that people ignore are useless.  They recognize if they continue to promulgate guidelines and mandates that are unenforceable because people choose to ignore them, then they - the politicians - become superfluous in the eyes of the public.  And we can't have that.

As far as the US having 800,000 deaths from covid, let's consider that number against the deaths reported by mainland China.  China has reported ~4,600 deaths from covid.  Those two pieces of data should put the spark in your head the possibility that not all countries are reporting covid deaths the same way, as each country is its own political entity with its own reasons for reporting deaths their own way.  (https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-maps-and-cases/)

I'm not saying the 800,000 US deaths from covid aren't real.  The number standing by itself implies exactly what Maxx is saying - something seems wrong.  And Maxx's opinion is solidly grounded in solely attributing it the government is wrong because...

If you think about it - when faced with a problem people tend to ask 'What is the solution?' not 'What are the solutionS?' (plural intentionally capitalized).  Laying blame solely on the government or seeking the government as the sole solution is wrong because the problem is too complex for one solution.  Certainly part of the blame and part of the solution lies with government, the government being one of several or many solutions.

There is another pattern worth noting, and one that should mystify no one.  Once it appears one variant has subsided and people believe they can 'get back to normal', another variant arises and the cycle repeats.  Given the virus is essentially a force of nature and man has not yet developed the means to prevent mutation (much less prevent infection), would one reasonably expect this pattern to continue?

Weary?   As early as the summer of 2020 I listened to a lot of "It's only old people who die from it and they would go anyway" to "It's a fake virus" along with many other memes too political for posting here.  There are a lot of excuses for ignoring a public health emergency, but in the end, they are just excuses.

What you say about human nature is true, but that is no reason to accept it.  I fear for this country in the end because it appears that we no longer have the spirit to face adversity and beat it.  "Fuck covid I'm going to go to the movies" is America as I see it now.

I suppose speaking the truth about our response to covid, both from our health agencies and from parts of the population, makes me a "downer".  Ya'll need to hear it though from the part of the population written off by many.  We're not done killing people with excuses yet.

We've done a lot more damage with the on again off again policies than we would have done early on with a proper response from everyone.

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9 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

I'm actually surprised in our 'instant' society it's taken this long for this weariness pattern to become as prevalent as it has.  But there it is and if you wish you can find other similar examples as you look through history.  Human nature doesn't change all that much, and so the patterns don't either.

Well, in "instant" society's defense, a good vocal portion was weary after a couple days of discomfort and change.  A shame as that sort of set the stage for where we are now.

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