Why Put In A Stop Sign?

[Razors Edge ★]

...when a complex and expensive traffic light will do instead???

We have a local side road that is currently a T intersection, where only the | part of the T has to stop for traffic.  The top portion of the T has no stop sign.  It becomes a little sketchy at rush hour as far more cars are on the | section, but the top of the T traffic is sometimes hard to spot as there is on street parking and a slight curve to the road.

It would all be easily sorted by a three way stop intersection, but today they were installing the traffic light.  Total overkill - especially for a road that will not see much additional usage any time soon.

[TrentonMakes]

Well, see, there's your problem - the hexagonal stop signs aren't worth a damn!

Unfortunately people seem to think that traffic signals are the solution to all problems, when in fact they can lead to new problems.  If volume conditions are right then an all-way stop can be very effective. 

However, there are minimum criteria for an all-way stop and if that major roadway has a whole lot more volume than the side street, then over time people are likely to get tired of stopping for no one, and just keep going (without telling the guy at the stop sign).

[Kzoo]

One word........... Round-a-bout.

 

[jsharr ★]

4 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

One word........... Round-a-bout.

 

[Razors Edge ★]

7 minutes ago, TrentonMakes said:

Well, see, there's your problem - the hexagonal stop signs aren't worth a damn!

Unfortunately people seem to think that traffic signals are the solution to all problems, when in fact they can lead to new problems.  If volume conditions are right then an all-way stop can be very effective. 

However, there are minimum criteria for an all-way stop and if that major roadway has a whole lot more volume than the side street, then over time people are likely to get tired of stopping for no one, and just keep going (without telling the guy at the stop sign).

I only had circle, square, and hexagon to choose from.  Not gonna freehand it   

But, it seems like a huge waste of money - traffic lights vs stop signs - and as someone who walks past that area a lot, really just needs a simple set of signs all around.  Or a roundabout would be fun, but that's more expensive than putting in two poles and two signs.

[Parsnip Totin Jack ★]

Adding more stop signs at that intersection would create a bigger problem as there is more traffic on North Shore than Temporary Rd. As someone else said, a roundabout would be a better solution as traffic could keep in motion rather than the stop/start caused by a three way stop. 

[Kzoo]

Just now, Old No. 7 said:

Adding more stop signs at that intersection would create a bigger problem as there is more traffic on North Shore than Temporary Rd. As someone else said, a roundabout would be a better solution as traffic could keep in motion rather than the stop/start caused by a three way stop. 

@jsharrwick doesn't agree

[Parsnip Totin Jack ★]

2 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

@jsharrwick doesn't agree

It’s a free country, but he has no say here. He’s a pair of boots, a cheap cowboy hat, and opinions. 

[12string]

26 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

One word........... Round-a-bout.

 

Can you put "-"s in a Wordle?  Because I'm not sure that's just one word.

[donkpow]

Tsk. Democrats.

[jsharr ★]

30 minutes ago, Old No. 7 said:

It’s a free country, but he has no say here. He’s a pair of boots, a cheap cowboy hat, and opinions. 

My cowboy hats are not cheap sir! 

[maddmaxx ★]

52 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

One word........... Round-a-bout.

 

That's what they did in downtown Glastonbury CT.  They had a 4 way stop that went to a light that went to a roundabout.  Now an intersection that was always jammed up flows reasonably smoothly.

[jsharr ★]

41 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

@jsharrwick doesn't agree

[Kzoo]

31 minutes ago, 12string said:

Can you put "-"s in a Wordle?  Because I'm not sure that's just one word.

Hyphenated-word.  Makes multiple words onto one-word.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

1 minute ago, Kzoo said:

Hyphenated-word.  Makes multiple words onto one-word.

 

I'm going to dash right out and begin hyphenating.

[12string]

34 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Hyphenated-word.  Makes multiple words onto one-word.

 

It really should be spelled hyphen-ated.  That would be so much more fun.

[Kzoo]

4 minutes ago, 12string said:

It really should be spelled hyphen-ated.  That would be so much more fun.

What-ever....... wait

[Razors Edge ★]

1 hour ago, Old No. 7 said:

Adding more stop signs at that intersection would create a bigger problem as there is more traffic on North Shore than Temporary Rd

A light is going to mess it up far worse.  And costs a lot more for that mess!

[Bikeguy]

9 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Total overkill - especially for a road that will not see much additional usage any time soon.

Usually, intersections get stop signs and then stop lights based on how many people and been injured or have died there because of collisions.

If they install stop lights with traffic sensors for the road that doesn't have much traffic, it probably will work just fine. And it could be more efficient that using 3 stop signs.   The road with the most traffic, which I would assume is North Shore Drive, would have a continuous green light until a car arrives from the temporary road from the west and triggers the stop light.

A round-a-about may be a simple solution, only if there available land for the circular roadway.  And... if there are not a lot of utilities (water, sewer, power, gas, phone, cable. etc..) that won't need to be relocated.  Relocation of utilities can be VERY expensive.   Round-a-abouts can have a large diameters, and may need a lot of land.

Or maybe a 'mini' round-a-about would work.   https://www.sehinc.com/news/amazing-world-roundabouts

[Razors Edge ★]

8 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

Usually, intersections get stop signs and then stop lights based on how many people and been injured or have died there because of collisions.

If they install stop lights with traffic sensors for the road that doesn't have much traffic, it probably will work just fine. And it could be more efficient that using 3 stop signs.   The road with the most traffic, which I would assume is North Shore Drive, would have a continuous green light until a car arrives from the temporary road from the west and triggers the stop light.

A round-a-about may be a simple solution, only if there available land for the circular roadway.  And... if there are not a lot of utilities (water, sewer, power, gas, phone, cable. etc..) that won't need to be relocated.  Relocation of utilities can be VERY expensive.   Round-a-abouts can have a large diameters, and may need a lot of land.

Or maybe a 'mini' round-a-about would work.   https://www.sehinc.com/news/amazing-world-roundabouts

Definitely no fatalities. Maybe some accidents but I've never seen or heard of them. Traffic on Temporary is usually light except towards rush hour. Traffic on North Shore is heavier, but still light.  Really, stop signs seem like a far more reasonable idea, but someone thought otherwise.  It may be a longterm decision where the county is planning to really screw over that neighborhood soon and send more traffic their way.  I know the county was looking at adding/connecting/expanding a road not too far from there, but on the other side of part of that golf course (north of and parallel to the W&OD).  Seems like $500 or $1,000 for stop signs is a better "interim" or trial than $50k or more for a set of traffic lights.  

I'm just hoping they can work another woonerf in somewhere.  Those are even more fun than circles.  

[maddmaxx ★]

8 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Definitely no fatalities. Maybe some accidents but I've never seen or heard of them. Traffic on Temporary is usually light except towards rush hour. Traffic on North Shore is heavier, but still light.  Really, stop signs seem like a far more reasonable idea, but someone thought otherwise.  It may be a longterm decision where the county is planning to really screw over that neighborhood soon and send more traffic their way.  I know the county was looking at adding/connecting/expanding a road not too far from there, but on the other side of part of that golf course (north of and parallel to the W&OD).  Seems like $500 or $1,000 for stop signs is a better "interim" or trial than $50k or more for a set of traffic lights.  

I'm just hoping they can work another woonerf in somewhere.  Those are even more fun than circles.  

Stop signs are useless when people ignore them.  There are some who say they only ignore them when there is no traffic but that leads to a form of memory that eventually leads them to see no traffic even when it's there.  Stop lights are a bit harder to ignore, especially if there is a red light camera and a stiff fine.  Roundabouts work, but only if the drivers are well enough educated to understand who has the right of way, and to cooperate at slipping into available holes properly so as to make the system work efficiently.  There are always those who simply don't understand or who don't care.

 

[Razors Edge ★]

7 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Stop signs are useless when people ignore them.  There are some who say they only ignore them when there is no traffic but that leads to a form of memory that eventually leads them to see no traffic even when it's there.  Stop lights are a bit harder to ignore, especially if there is a red light camera and a stiff fine.  Roundabouts work, but only if the drivers are well enough educated to understand who has the right of way, and to cooperate at slipping into available holes properly so as to make the system work efficiently.  There are always those who simply don't understand or who don't care.

 

But again, this is both a "perfect the enemy of the good" AND a $1,000 vs $50,000 (or even $250,000+) sort of thing.  Solving problems simply with $$$ isn't really the best use of limited resources.  

[maddmaxx ★]

Says the guy who hasn't been hit at a stop sign intersection.

 

Are you looking to prevent accidents or to make the intersection more convenient for you.

[Bikeguy]

11 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Says the guy who hasn't been hit at a stop sign intersection.

 

Are you looking to prevent accidents or to make the intersection more convenient for you.

Yeah...  like I said.. they don't spend money on stop lights if there hasn't been a problem, with collisions.   They must be trying to reduce collisions, injuries, and possibly death. 

Notice... I never said accident, that implies the outcome was inevitable, because no one had any control to stop the collision.   Usually someone did something stupid...  and then someone else also pays for the lack of common sense. 

[Razors Edge ★]

16 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Says the guy who hasn't been hit at a stop sign intersection.

 

Are you looking to prevent accidents or to make the intersection more convenient for you.

I have been hit crossing on a green - with a walk sign - at a traffic light controlled intersection. I've also avoided being hit countless times.  COUNTLESS.  

I WALK through the intersection I am asking about.  Sometimes ride it or sometimes drive it, but generally am walking there as it is on one of my regular lunch walking loops.   

Is your belief that there should be traffic lights and traffic light cameras at ALL intersection in place of stop signs?  That seems dramatic.  

[Razors Edge ★]

2 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

they don't spend money on stop lights

You should move here and you'd see they LOVE to spend money.  We're talking "drunken sailors in port after six months at sea and wallets full of cash" spending

[Bikeguy]

So... now you are trying to piss off @maddmaxx?  

[az_cyclist]

18 hours ago, Kzoo said:

One word........... Round-a-bout.

 

Round a bouts are great in many places, as long as drivers know how to use them.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, az_cyclist said:

Round a bouts are great in many places, as long as drivers know how to use them.

We have round-abouts here (far better than the NJ ones I encounter up there), but space is an issue for these smaller side roads.  But it could be done - but not for less than two stop signs!

FTR, I'm also not sure why - even if going whole hog with a new set of lights - they didn't FIRST install stop signs a couple years ago in lead up to the lights.  

[MickinMD ★]

Three stop signs would probably work since the | road is the one with heavy traffic and it already has a stop sign.

But they can get carried away with them.  In the section of Baltimore City next to my suburban neighborhood they once had a City Councilman named William Meyers.  His nickname was "Stop Sign Willie."

I used to walk a mile through that community, each way to and from Saint Rose of Lima Catholic School in grades 1-8, so I knew it well and witnessed the creation of many of Willie's added signs and changing sections of a few streets to one way to fit his picture of traffic control.  He lived in a corner row house with about a 30' long front yard where, for some reason, he was allowed to have a 30' long sign erected every 4 years that blocked the view of the intersection for 6 months at a time and said "Reelect the Mayor!"

There are lots and lots of side-street intersections where he had, through influence with the Mayor's Office, stop signs placed at all four directions. He wanted each requester's vote no matter how ridiculous the extra signs were!

To this day, a couple generations later, driving 1/2 mile from a side street out to the main road is like running an obstacle course, though some of the unneeded extra signs have been removed.  When I need to go into that area's main road, I drive a couple extra miles on the surrounding highways to avoid that mess.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, MickinMD said:

Three stop signs would probably work since the | road is the one with heavy traffic and it already has a stop sign.

It alternates on which is more busy. Non-rush, the top of the T is busier.  At rush hour, the | is always backed up from a handful to a dozen or more cars waiting for a chance to safely turn left.  That frustration - sitting and waiting for a gap both directions - is likely what does cause any accidents there.  

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

I have been hit crossing on a green - with a walk sign - at a traffic light controlled intersection. I've also avoided being hit countless times.  COUNTLESS.  

I WALK through the intersection I am asking about.  Sometimes ride it or sometimes drive it, but generally am walking there as it is on one of my regular lunch walking loops.   

Is your belief that there should be traffic lights and traffic light cameras at ALL intersection in place of stop signs?  That seems dramatic.  

No.  That's not my belief.  First attempt out of 3.

[Razors Edge ★]

5 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

No.  That's not my belief.  First attempt out of 3.

No worries. Your understanding of the OP is clearly "off", so it would be like guessing Wordle on the first try - simply a lucky guess for me to know what you're thinking.

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

No worries. Your understanding of the OP is clearly "off", so it would be like guessing Wordle on the first try - simply a lucky guess for me to know what you're thinking.

You don't know what I'm thinking.  2nd try of three.