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Randomguy

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2 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I am happy to answer this, so is Apple.  What does the warranty not cover?  Broken glass, batteries, broken charging ports, and assorted other stuff.  Get those fixed anywhere but Apple, and your warranty is voided completely.

:scratchhead:  So your battery died in less than an year?     I'll keep my Galaxy 7 for a while... 

 

Your product warranty

The Apple Limited Warranty covers your iPhone and Apple-branded accessories against manufacturing issues for one year from the date you bought your product. The Apple Limited Warranty is in addition to rights provided by consumer law.

Our warranty doesn't cover damage caused by accidents or unauthorized modifications

 

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3 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

So...  I have to ask (before @bikeman564™ does again)  if its under warranty,  why not just use the warranty for the repair?

If it's out of warranty... I'd take it to the phone repair shop I found.

From what I see an Apple warranty is just 1 year.  An Apple 7 would be out of warranty for a few years now.   So why not just get a place to swap the battery? 

I have the 12 now, I mentioned the 7 because the battery was crap when I had that one.

If the phone is under warranty, the battery is not covered.  If you take your phone that is currently under warranty anywhere other than Apple for fixing, nothing else in the entirety of your iphone is under warranty anymore, it voids because you strayed from Apple, that is why.

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15 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

like many companies offer, options to extend it.

I NEVER get an extended warranty.    You are betting it will fail, the manufacture is betting it won't.    I'll keep the money and figure out what to do if it fails.

1 hour ago, bikeman564™ said:

wait til your electric car needs a batter :D

My 2005 Prius was driven 251,000 miles no problems with the hybrid battery. 

I did have to change the 12 volt battery, after 8 1/2 years.  The 12V battery doesn't start the engine, it just starts the computers and powers the accessories.  So the stress on the 12V battery is less and it lasts longer.  The 12V batteries in my other cars are replaced about 5 years.

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7 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

If the phone is under warranty, the battery is not covered.  If you take your phone that is currently under warranty anywhere other than Apple for fixing, nothing else in the entirety of your iphone is under warranty anymore, it voids because you strayed from Apple, that is why.

Yeah... I'll keep my old Galaxy S7 for a while.

WoBG has a iPhone XR.   It is more than 2 years old now.  It's been in an OtterBox Defender since day 1. (same thing for the S7) 

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This is LONG overdue, and should be hyped as a step in reversing our disposable attitude.  I can't believe how many people just toss easily fixable stuff, but for too long manufacturers have conditioned us to think that way.  

I have a Galaxy s6 waiting for me to replace the screen.  My daughter broke it, bought another, she can afford it  She got an earful from me.  She was raised better, to the point that she's vegan as part of her save the world effort.  I'll replace the screen, and have it ready for whoever needs it.  If it's the one who first broke it, it will cost her.

This is also great news for he many small repair shops who are fully capable of this work.

Anecdotes: My Audi has a voice command system.  Disabled on a convertible, because they are afraid people will get poor reactions with the top down and bad mouth them.  I can turn it back on with my laptop, just flip a bit.  Same thing with the auto high beams, not sure that reason.  Oops - open safety  recall, I've been warned they won't do it if the computer has been accessed.  It's a reflash anyway, it will undo my changes.

I had a smart switch go bad, one capacitor.  So I took it apart.  Turns out they used crappy laminate that melts if you're not careful.  Can't fix that, so I called, they are sending a new switch under the warranty they extended just for this problem.

I do have access to the equipment, up til now I've just accepted the voided warranties to save the aggravation of returning stuff.

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2 hours ago, bikeman564™ said:

wait til your electric car needs a batter :D

...for the record, one of our cars is a Nissan LEAF. I took a whole class over at one of the automotive tech schools here on it. 

 

As you have surmised, it's not at all difficult to kill yourself working on electric cars. As part of that class, we removed the drive battery and opened it up to look inside at the stacks and stacks of individual cells. Then we replaced that same battery in the car.  About six guys in that class were there because they worked for auto recycling yards, which at the time were afraid to take electric cars into their operations to resell parts from wrecks, for fear they would assplode.

The drive battery is, of course, the single most valuable part for resale from a wreck.  This was some years back, so I guess maybe they have more places that have worked this out now.

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37 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

I did have to change the 12 volt battery, after 8 1/2 years.  The 12V battery doesn't start the engine, it just starts the computers and powers the accessories.  So the stress on the 12V battery is less and it lasts longer.  The 12V batteries in my other cars are replaced about 5 years.

...I had that 12 volt battery on the LEAF go dead after about 8 years as well.   It was mysterious as hell one cold morning when I walked outside, and the car wouldn't talk to me any more. :(  Took me a while to figure out I had to manually open it with the key, and I'm glad I didn't have anything in the hatchback compartment, because that's an electronic only latch mechanism. I think there must be a manual release from the inside, but I never had to figure it out. Thank god the 12 volt battery is right up front and obvious in its location. :happyanim:

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1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

Yep, and it voids the warranty for the entire phone, instantly, as stated on the Apple website.  If you want to at least double your cost and keep your warranty, you'd be locked into going to whatever Apple store is closest to you and get it fixed on their schedule, rather than going to the closest non-Apple repair shop who could presumably do it faster and cheaper.

This was a necessary law for a reason.

 

 

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Pros/Cons from the Deere world:

How user agreements play out on the farm

Their solution was borrowed directly from the PC environment: the end-user license agreement. And buried in almost all end-user license agreements is a clause that gives a manufacturer the right to alter the terms of the agreement unilaterally, typically with minimal advance notice.

John Deere included such a clause in the end-user license agreement that it imposed on owners of its equipment in October 2016, and it was this clause more than anything else that provoked an immediate angry response from farmers and right to repair advocates from coast to coast.

The tractors, combines, and other equipment used in farming come with hefty price tags. For about $500,000 you can buy a brand-new Rolls Royce Phantom with all the bells and whistles... or a base model John Deere combine. By imposing an end-user license agreement on their products, John Deere was implying that the only thing a farmer was buying with their half-a-million-dollar investment was permission to use the equipment, subject to terms that John Deere could alter with almost no advance notice.

The Economist called it “the death of ownership in America.” According to Kevin Kenney, a Nebraska engineer and an outspoken advocate for right to repair, “There’s no reason for a license agreement other than to maintain control.”

Guy Mills, a Nebraska farmer, says that the imposition of a license agreement stifles progress, and he sees these restrictions as a direct attack on free thought. “It stymies the on-farm innovation that’s been the backbone of growth in American agriculture,” adds Kenney.

John Deere has been quick to push back against this negative publicity. After Kyle Wiens, the founder of iFixit, published an op-ed piece in Wired magazine in April 2015 accusing Deere of trying to “destroy the very idea of ownership,” a Deere spokesman told ag news network DTN, “What Deere wants to be clear about is, number one, customers own the equipment they purchase from us.”

The problem, as Kenney is quick to point out, is that the software controls the equipment. “If you have a sensor go out, your combine goes into limp mode, and you’re basically sitting there. Your radio works and your air conditioner works—or maybe not.” With John Deere’s restrictions on access to the software, the equipment owner can’t use the equipment until it’s serviced by a licensed John Deere tech.

“Downtime is a thousand dollars an hour during harvest,” Kenney adds. “You’re not going to get that back. You’ve only got so much time to harvest your beans.” When the only available service is from the dealership, farmers end up waiting for dealership service techs, and better customers might get preferential treatment and priority service. “You’ll either get treated fairly or unfairly—it’s all up to the dealer and what he decides to do.”

But without Deere’s insistence on restricted access to their code, Kenney argues, a farmer could either diagnose the problem with the equipment on the spot or hire an independent mechanic.

 

On the other end, John Deere argues that access to the company’s proprietary software could be used to bypass emissions controls or safety measures. But some of the right to repair legal victories seem to contradict such logic—for instance, a Massachusetts law already guarantees the same sort of access to passenger vehicle software that right to repair advocates want from ag equipment manufacturers.

“There’s nothing about this industry that’s different than the automobile industry,” Kenney tells Ars. “There are more regulations in that industry and they have right to repair.”

On behalf of manufacturers, industry lobbyists have argued that right to repair legislation will make it easier for hackers to compromise electronic devices, but there is evidence that farmers have already turned to hackers to get around the access restrictions that manufacturers have put in place. Support for hacking devices to repair them came from an unexpected quarter in October, when the federal government published an updated interpretation of the DMCA that carved out an exception to the law expressly permitting equipment owners to hack their systems in order to repair them.

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...or the medical world:

How user agreements play out at the hospital

As noted at the start, the right to repair battle has brought together strange bedfellows—consumer tech and ag manufacturers aren’t the only ones rallying against such legislation. This has become an issue in healthcare as well.

Some medical equipment manufacturers have long been reluctant to make their diagnostic and servicing tools and software available to independent repair shops and hospitals. “It’s a battle we’ve been fighting for at least twenty-five years,” says Binseng Wang, an outspoken advocate for the right to repair in the healthcare field. Wang points out that outside the US, the European Union already requires medical equipment manufacturers to release the service and diagnostic information right to repair advocates here would like published.

For Steve Grimes, a veteran hospital administrator, right to repair is all about choice. “I need to be able to select the best options to support the equipment. I need to be able to choose from a variety of qualified resources. My best option is sometimes going to be the manufacturer, sometimes it’s going to be a third-party organization, sometimes it’s going to be my own inhouse staff and technicians.”

Peter Weems, senior director of policy and strategic operations for the Medical Imaging Technology Alliance (an advocacy group for the medical equipment industry), counters that third-party servicers are not subject to government regulation like the manufacturers themselves. “Service is only regulated if it’s done by the manufacturer,” he notes. “There’s no FDA oversight for other services. They’re not required to have quality management systems or register with the FDA, and they don’t have to report adverse events.

“We’re trying to achieve consistent quality and safety requirements,” Weems continued. “If you’re a servicer you should be required to register with the FDA and have a quality management system in place.”

The medical equipment industry is also concerned that third-party servicers might be crossing the line from repair into remanufacturing. “Seemingly minor actions which have not been given appropriate scrutiny can significantly change how a device operates, even if you’re trying to repair it in good faith,” observes Weems. Replacement parts that don’t meet original specs can significantly change a device’s performance or safety profile, according to a MITA white paper.

While Grimes doesn’t disagree with Weems on the need for quality management, he also sees this as an industry attempt to change the focus of the debate. “Although a growing number of third-party servicers have received certification for compliance with quality management systems, manufacturers still refuse to share service materials.”

The hospital administrator notes that manufacturers regularly charge more for service than third parties, and there is a perception in the industry that this focus on third-party quality control is an attempt to divert attention from monopolistic practices. “If they’re the only game in town, they don’t have to be competitive,” as Grimes puts it. “Manufacturers see repair as a revenue stream that they want to preserve.”

And though third-party service regulation hasn’t yet been formalized by the FDA, Wang observes that third-party servicers, including hospitals, are already under a significant amount of pressure to perform. “The whole field of health care is under very strong scrutiny, not only by the government, but because we live in a very litigious society—the liability exposure is huge,” he says. “If we want to survive and thrive in this field, we know that we have to do things right. We often do more than necessary because we don’t want to run the risk being sued, and above all, of hurting people.”

Wang points out that, as with agricultural equipment, access to manufacturer-licensed service can also be a challenge. “It’s an issue in remote areas,” he says. “There are hospitals in areas where UPS and other courier services won’t even deliver next-day. Large metropolitan areas also present challenges due to traffic congestion. Manufacturer reps cannot reach these areas in a reasonable amount of time. If a piece of equipment goes down, you have to have someone there that can take care of the equipment promptly, otherwise it can negatively impact patients whose wellbeing and lives are at stake.” Noting the high cost of some equipment, Wang adds, “Most hospitals cannot afford to have backups for this equipment.”

Backed by a bit more legal muscle than the farm community, hospitals and other health care organizations have taken the right to repair fight to the courts. In 2017, a Texas jury found that GE engaged in monopolistic practices by limiting access to parts required to repair and service anesthesia equipment. For Gay Gordon-Byrne of Repair.org, the verdict represents only a small victory. “No one else has changed their policy,” she says. “GE is still fighting against the right to repair other products, such as MRI machines, even though they lost this case.”

The jury awarded plaintiffs in the GE case an eye-popping total of $141 million in damages, but the case was not widely covered (perhaps due to its medical field niche). Instead, today’s most visible section of the right to repair fight takes us back to iFixit: it doesn’t involve tractors or medical equipment, it involves phones, tablets, and game consoles.

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2 hours ago, Randomguy said:

I have done all those things in the past except the phone stuff.  Some things you absolutely have to have repaired at or by the manufacturer or it'll void whatever warranty you have, or parts are not sold to third parties at all.  We will stay with Apple for the examples, since it is easiest.  If you have an apple phone, likely any work you do on it voids the warranty.  From the Apple site itself:

What Voids iPhone Warranty?

 

  • Third-party unauthorized repairs. If you need to have your iPhone serviced, always book a Genius Bar appointment or go to an Apple Authorized Service Provider. Apple doesn’t cover damage caused by unauthorized service providers.

Also on the Apple site:

All new iPhones come with a one-year Apple warranty that covers defects in workmanship and materials. Unfortunately, jailbreaking your iPhone, scratching off the serial number, and third-party repairs will instantly void the warranty. 

Meh.  They still buy them back when you buy a new phone though.  :)

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16 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

On the other end, John Deere argues that access to the company’s proprietary software could be used to bypass emissions controls or safety measures.

I didn't need to hack any software to defeat a John Deere safety measure on my X390.

There is a yellow button...  

X390, 54-in. Deck | X300 Select Series Lawn Tractor | John Deere US

When you are mowing and want to back up (and keep mowing) you need to push the yellow button.  If you don't press the button first, before going backwards, the mower deck will stop.

You just need to connect the 2 wires for the button together.  Essentially on my X390 the yellow button is always being pushed.  I can mow backwards with no issues, just like I did on my 23 year JD 325 lawn tractor.

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33 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Meh.  They still buy them back when you buy a new phone though.  :)

Only if it is recent and in good shape.  Some people hang on to their phones for dear life, like Ralph.

Anyway, how can increasing repair options for consumers be a bad thing?  You gotta really reach to find rationalizations for that.   You said it yourself that you will fix your own devices when you can, so it wouldn't be so great if you couldn't because of resident software or a company refusing to supply parts or instructions or necessary supplies, right?  More choices, better capitalism.    More monopolies, worse capitalism.  No way around that.

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22 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

and people still buy apple products...must not be a deal breaker ;) 

Other than the battery, the phone was fine.  I do miss the home button, though.

That said, there are crappy aspects to all phones.  Siri sucks, autocorrect is crap, a few other niggling items.   Otherwise, it is pretty good, like LJ said.   If I had a Samsung or other phone, I am 100% positive that it would have other, probably different, problems that are at least as peeving.

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6 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Other than the battery, the phone was fine.  I do miss the home button, though.

That said, there are crappy aspects to all phones.  Siri sucks, autocorrect is crap, a few other niggling items.   Otherwise, it is pretty good, like LJ said.   If I had a Samsung or other phone, I am 100% positive that it would have other, probably different, problems that are at least as peeving.

One reason I will never buy Apple is proprietary accessories. Why is that not an issue? I never used Siri or any other whatever that is.

With the exception of my first cell phone which was an NEC. All my subsequent phones have been Motorola. I only had a power issue with one phone, but it had it for awhile. I bought a new OEM battery from Motorola direct, but that did not solve the problem.

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3 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

 

That said, there are crappy aspects to all phones.  Siri sucks, autocorrect is crap, a few other niggling items.  

..my biggest problem when I had a smart phone, was that people were always calling me on it.  

I fixed that myself by letting the service run out, and not renewing it.  It turned out to be an easy fix. :)

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2 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...in case anyone needs it, there is now an entire thread over on the other bicycle forum that must not be named here, entitled "Di2 hacks".  Which I find adorable.:wub:

 

can you hack in and shift other bikes that are next to you? That would be sweet.

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1 minute ago, bikeman564™ said:

One reason I will never buy Apple is proprietary accessories

I am not sure what you mean.  I think some accessories use the lighting port, is that it?  I didn't like that I couldn't use other headphones at first, but the lightning port is more 'positive' and more stable on the headphone cord in the connector area.  Doesn't really matter now that I use wireless headphones for everything.  That said, there should be standards across phones, I am pretty sure that the EU is working on that or has already done something with it, but I am not the recent world traveler at all.

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.

...I just read that Di2 thread, and it was disappointing. :(  It was an entire thread about eliminating the B junction box (splitter), by stripping and soldering the wires together yourself, to save space or something. Nothing about how to stand around watching a race, and surreptitiously shifting the bicycle of some guy riding past you don't like.  Very disappointing. :angry:

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4 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

  That said, there should be standards across phones, I am pretty sure that the EU is working on that or has already done something with it, but I am not the recent world traveler at all.

...what happens on a bicycle forum when you mention proprietary technology and interchangeability of parts.

 

niagara-falls-slowly-i-turn.gif

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1 minute ago, Page Turner said:

...what happens on a bicycle forum when you mention proprietary technology and interchangeability of parts.

 

niagara-falls-slowly-i-turn.gif

The bike industry needs MORE standards, correct? I figure they will sort bottom brackets sometime in my lifetime.

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6 hours ago, Dirtyhip said:

Trump signed 220 of them during his presidency, BTW.

Hey RG, I didn't think people repaired them.  In our wasteful society I thought people just threw them in the garbage when anything went wrong. 

This is a big deal with farmers.  Most farm machinery is now controlled by computers. John Deere is especially bad about not allowing anyone but their own shop to work on any of the computer controlled stuff.  We don't throw i million + dollar combines away for a computer problem.

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24 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I am not sure what you mean.  I think some accessories use the lighting port, is that it?  I didn't like that I couldn't use other headphones at first, but the lightning port is more 'positive' and more stable on the headphone cord in the connector area.  Doesn't really matter now that I use wireless headphones for everything.  That said, there should be standards across phones, I am pretty sure that the EU is working on that or has already done something with it, but I am not the recent world traveler at all.

I don't know what their port is called. But albeit for charging, headphones, or else. Apple uses their own. They should use USB like everyone else. The standard (if you can call it that) should USB. I say should because USB's aren't common. They were mini, then micro, now type C.

I"m done.

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28 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

I don't know what their port is called. But albeit for charging, headphones, or else. Apple uses their own. They should use USB like everyone else. The standard (if you can call it that) should USB. I say should because USB's aren't common. They were mini, then micro, now type C.

I"m done.

Capitalism is great right? 

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46 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

The bike industry needs MORE standards, correct? I figure they will sort bottom brackets sometime in my lifetime.

One of our favorite terms at the shop, standard. Customers would constantly say this.

I need a derailleur hanger? It is a standard one. Then I would show them this poster that has so so many. 😂 

Also, “it is a standard bike.” 

I felt sassy one day and I wrote up a service slip and wrote “black standard bike.”  The service guys laughed when they pulled not out to repair.  It was also fun to quote customers when they called on the phone. 

 

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2 hours ago, Randomguy said:

Only if it is recent and in good shape.  Some people hang on to their phones for dear life, like Ralph.

Anyway, how can increasing repair options for consumers be a bad thing?  You gotta really reach to find rationalizations for that.   You said it yourself that you will fix your own devices when you can, so it wouldn't be so great if you couldn't because of resident software or a company refusing to supply parts or instructions or necessary supplies, right?  More choices, better capitalism.    More monopolies, worse capitalism.  No way around that.

So the initial price will go up to compensate.  Win win right?

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8 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

So the initial price will go up to compensate.  Win win right?

So the initial price should be kept at the same high level so we can be butt-raped continually to our detriment?  Win win right?  

But anyway, yes.  Price your product any how much you think people will pay and allow them the repair without obstruction.  Apple or John Deere should not have the institutionalized right to profit in perpetuity in a way that harms the customer to the monopoly's benefit. 

Hth could anyone possibly argue against a right to repair?  

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1 hour ago, Dirtyhip said:

Especially so when companies get to dictate law and sway actions against the common good,

The problem isn't with capitalism freely practiced and fair with checks and balances, so much as late-stage capitalism, which is not so good and is pretty much where we are at.  The economy now is set up to favor the entrenched, all while concentrating wealth at the top, it is anti-Robinhood if you want to encapsulate it.  You can't blame the rich folks for getting really wealthy, it would be nice to be counted among them and be able to utilize the myriad loopholes and tax dodges available to them, and once there, to squelch competition any way possible.  

That said, they have not only bought legal means to continue to concentrate wealth with lobbyists and associated bribery here and there (and everywhere), but they have convinced quite a few of the little folks to exhibit a strange type of Stockholm syndrome, and to constantly advocate on their behalf while all clearly against their own self-interests.  Useful stooges, you see, I have used that term here before.  

Quite a few even seem angry about people wanting to, at a bare minimum, have enough money to pay rent on a shithole with a livable minimum wage.  Nobody gets rich on minimum wage, you see, but all kinds of anger about it.  "How dare people not want to be vassals to the kings that walk that are chauffeured among us, even though I am slightly better off than the filthy wretches that do the work I deign distasteful.  Indeed, how dare they aspire to use any small leverage they have for a barely larger, yet still very meager existence?"  How dare they indeed.

Anyway, capitalism isn't perfect, it isn't even what we really have had.  It is out of whack and needs some significant spit and polish and some tinkering to make it about all the people, not just the well-off.

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Just now, Randomguy said:

The problem isn't with capitalism freely practiced and fair with checks and balances, so much as late-stage capitalism, which is not so good and is pretty much where we are at.  The economy now is set up to favor the entrenched, all while concentrating wealth at the top, it is anti-Robinhood if you want to encapsulate it.  You can't blame the rich folks for getting really wealthy, it would be nice to be counted among them and be able to utilize the myriad loopholes and tax dodges available to them, and once there, to squelch competition any way possible.  

That said, they have not only bought legal means to continue to concentrate wealth with lobbyists and associated bribery here and there (and everywhere), but they have convinced quite a few of the little folks to exhibit a strange type of Stockholm syndrome, and to constantly advocate on their behalf while all clearly against their own self-interests.  Useful stooges, you see, I have used that term here before.  

Quite a few even seem angry about people wanting to, at a bare minimum, have enough money to pay rent on a shithole with a livable minimum wage.  Nobody gets rich on minimum wage, you see, but all kinds of anger about it.  "How dare people not want to be vassals to the kings that walk that are chauffeured among us, even though I am slightly better off than the filthy wretches that do the work I won't since it is so distasteful.  Indeed, how dare they aspire to use any small leverage they have for a barely larger, yet still very meager existence?"

Anyway, capitalism isn't perfect, it isn't even what we really have had.  It is out of whack and needs some significant spit and polish and some tinkering to make it about all the people, not just the well-off.

I completely agree.  Unfettered capitalism is destroying everything.  We are seeing the effects of that, and it is not pretty. 

Kinda funny when people were like "Don't like it, get a new job."  Many did.  Now people complain there are no people to make the pizzas/whatever.  I do not believe that the person who makes my food doesn't deserve to live with common things like housing, food, and healthcare and heat.  I would love to see people try and make it on those low wages.  You can't.  

About taxes, they know what you owe.  It is made complicated because of the tax prep agencies.  They have a powerful lobby.  

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23 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

I completely agree.  Unfettered capitalism is destroying everything.  We are seeing the effects of that, and it is not pretty. 

Kinda funny when people were like "Don't like it, get a new job."  Many did.  Now people complain there are no people to make the pizzas/whatever.  I do not believe that the person who makes my food doesn't deserve to live with common things like housing, food, and healthcare and heat.  I would love to see people try and make it on those low wages.  You can't.  

About taxes, they know what you owe.  It is made complicated because of the tax prep agencies.  They have a powerful lobby.  

The market is self correcting.  Because so many left, wages are rising in the restaurant business.  That's what you wanted, and that's what you will get.........not in spite of capitalism, but because of it.

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4 hours ago, Randomguy said:

Only if it is recent and in good shape.  Some people hang on to their phones for dear life, like Ralph.

Anyway, how can increasing repair options for consumers be a bad thing?  You gotta really reach to find rationalizations for that.   You said it yourself that you will fix your own devices when you can, so it wouldn't be so great if you couldn't because of resident software or a company refusing to supply parts or instructions or necessary supplies, right?  More choices, better capitalism.    More monopolies, worse capitalism.  No way around that.

When it comes to phones, repairs other than a drop accident are pretty rare.  What is a problem is designed obsolescence.  Hardware and software suppliers need to be controlled for that. 

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38 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

The market is self correcting.  Because so many left, wages are rising in the restaurant business.  That's what you wanted, and that's what you will get.........not in spite of capitalism, but because of it.

 

1 hour ago, Dirtyhip said:

Now people complain there are no people to make the pizzas/whatever.  I do not believe that the person who makes my food doesn't deserve to live with common things like housing, food, and healthcare and heat.

Until this happens... Automated Pizza Kitchens

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3 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

 

Until this happens... Automated Pizza Kitchens

It's a great thing that I make fantastic pizza.  The tipping is already all sort of ridiculous with eating out of the home,  The do not support their workers with a livable wage and expect us to pay for their disparity.

People will run out of money to support industries if they have no jobs or money.  We are approaching that scenario already.  

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1 minute ago, Dirtyhip said:

It's a great thing that I make fantastic pizza.  The tipping is already all sort of ridiculous with eating out of the home,  The do not support their workers with a livable wage and expect us to pay for their disparity.

People will run out of money to support industries if they have no jobs or money.  We are approaching that scenario already.  

If there are insufficient customers who have the money for pizza, it won't matter that the shiny kitchen is automated.

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Just now, Dirtyhip said:

Even with rising employee restaurant wage, who here thinks you can live on $15 an hour?  Honest question here.  

You can't live on that wage.  It is poverty.  

and we wonder why crime is up so steeply. 

 

Geeze, less than 2 years ago $15 was the dream minimum wage.  Where do you think it should go now........$40, $50?  Will it be possible to live on $50 shortly after that?

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