Jump to content

Wanted: deletion of electronic books in Internet Archive


shootingstar
 Share

Recommended Posts

Librarian's lament: Digital books are not fireproof | ZDNet  

Book bans: How Amazon, Google, and Apple can fight back with a Freedom Archive | ZDNet

During the pandemic, starting 2020,  various folks internationally supported creation of a temporary National Emergency (digital) Internet Library that would temporarily allow people to borrow electronic books that were banned/censored from various public, school libraries. ..which includes  The Complete Maus by Art Speigelman which is graphic comic book on the Holocaust. (I didn't know this since I don't monitor popular culture history books at all. Wierd even recent ban attempts for  Bradbury's Farenheit 451. :huh:  My world /career has been completely different.)  Some of the old books are past the U.S. or Canadian copyright protection law time limit...so out in the public domain. 

Books to Borrow : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive  Yes, of course there are various versions of Catcher in the Rye, Lolita,...which I know I can get easily in a major Canadian library where their local policy is more "liberal", however you want to define, "liberal".

In 2022: Tennessee school board bans Holocaust comic 'Maus' by Art Spiegelman (cnbc.com)

Not the first time, publishers want to mount a court case against libraries...because a library is damaging to their revenue. Forget about public equal access provided by a library via your paying membership as a taxpayer or student fees (if it's a university/college library).  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • shootingstar changed the title to Wanted: deletion of electronic books in Internet Archive


48 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

Librarian's lament: Digital books are not fireproof | ZDNet  

Book bans: How Amazon, Google, and Apple can fight back with a Freedom Archive | ZDNet

During the pandemic, starting 2020,  various folks internationally supported creation of a temporary National Emergency (digital) Internet Library that would temporarily allow people to borrow electronic books that were banned/censored from various public, school libraries. ..which includes  The Complete Maus by Art Speigelman which is graphic comic book on the Holocaust. (I didn't know this since I don't monitor popular culture history books at all. Wierd even recent ban attempts for  Bradbury's Farenheit 451. :huh:  My world /career has been completely different.)  Some of the old books are past the U.S. or Canadian copyright protection law time limit...so out in the public domain. 

Books to Borrow : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive  Yes, of course there are various versions of Catcher in the Rye, Lolita,...which I know I can get easily in a major Canadian library where their local policy is more "liberal", however you want to define, "liberal".

In 2022: Tennessee school board bans Holocaust comic 'Maus' by Art Spiegelman (cnbc.com)

Not the first time, publishers want to mount a court case against libraries...because a library is damaging to their revenue. Forget about public equal access provided by a library via your paying membership as a taxpayer or student fees (if it's a university/college library).  

 

Spiegelman never agreed to an e-book version of Maus. The Internet Archive pirated it. They did not have legal right to make it available. Copyright law is law. Stealing is theft. The Internet Archive did not pay Pantheon or Spiegelman for the right to use and distribute Maus.

Imagine if the Internet Archive took your niece's book and made it available for free. She would be paid nothing even though legally she should be paid for the use. Would you support that?

Publishers are not mounting a case against libraries, just one, the Internet Archive. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, denniS said:

Spiegelman never agreed to an e-book version of Maus. The Internet Archive pirated it. They did not have legal right to make it available. Copyright law is law. Stealing is theft. The Internet Archive did not pay Pantheon or Spiegelman for the right to use and distribute Maus.

Imagine if the Internet Archive took your niece's book and made it available for free. She would be paid nothing even though legally she should be paid for the use. Would you support that?

Publishers are not mounting a case against libraries, just one, the Internet Archive. 

I was not aware about the unauthorized e-book coversion. Thx.  

There was a Supreme Court of CAnada case mounted in the 1990's by the law publishers against Canadian libraries...with court case target at the law library for the Law Society of Upper Canada...that was very deliberate to secure fees from the library. This is a law library where members of the public can walk and ask a law librarian to show them where to find a particular law book, journal article  (if not digitized). It would be self-represented litigants or anyone doing research within that library.  Members of the public can't borrow unless they are paying members of law society (lawyer) but they can sit in the library to read or make photocopy of some pages for a fee.

This was a key court decision in Canada that drove all the business about copyright fees from libraries by publishers. Then resulted in tracking by libraries on use and their cheap photocopy rate for users.  

The law publishers won....now since then the university and college libraries in Canada have to buy certain fees for ....LOAN/temporary digital acesss to  the books, journals. This gets into higher access fees for licensed digital books in niche subject areas also:  law, sciences....it is now very expensive. No these texts and....research is not openly available on the "free" Internet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

I was not aware about the unauthorized e-book coversion. Thx.  

There was a Supreme Court of CAnada case mounted in the 1990's by the law publishers against Canadian libraries...with court case target at the law library for the Law Society of Upper Canada...that was very deliberate to secure fees from the library. This is a law library where members of the public can walk and ask a law librarian to show them where to find a particular law book, journal article  (if not digitized). It would be self-represented litigants or anyone doing research within that library.  Members of the public can't borrow unless they are paying members of law society (lawyer) but they can sit in the library to read or make photocopy of some pages for a fee.

This was a key court decision in Canada that drove all the business about copyright fees from libraries by publishers. Then resulted in tracking by libraries on use and their cheap photocopy rate for users.  

The law publishers won....now since then the university and college libraries in Canada have to buy certain fees for ....LOAN/temporary digital acesss to  the books, journals. This gets into higher access fees for licensed digital books in niche subject areas also:  law, sciences....it is now very expensive. No these texts and....research is not openly available on the "free" Internet.

If you own something, you have the right to charge for it's use. Radio stations pay for the right to play music. TV networks pay for the right show movies. Libraries pay for the right to lend materials both physical and digital. 

Again, would you be okay if someone made a pirated version of you niece's book and gave it away without paying her for it's use? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, denniS said:

If you own something, you have the right to charge for it's use. Radio stations pay for the right to play music. TV networks pay for the right show movies. Libraries pay for the right to lend materials both physical and digital. 

Again, would you be okay if someone made a pirated version of you niece's book and gave it away without paying her for it's use? 

I think you're missing something it's the principle of fair dealing in a library. Library database license  provides temporary access not to download to sell, dennis. That's their license which is an an aggreggate license for several hundred publishers. 

As for the load of the physical book...there are  no physical fees for borrowing from library.  Libraries not out to encourage photocopying of entire books, though some people do it and pay for it. Let's not argue over the miscreants who do this vs. vast majority who just borrow books or temporarily access an electronic book.

The Internet archive if it contains books beyond their statutory (legal) copyright lifespan..  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

I think you're missing something it's the principle of fair dealing in a library. Library database license  provides temporary access not to download to sell, dennis. That's their license which is an an aggreggate license for several hundred publishers. 

As for the load of the physical book...there are  no physical fees for borrowing from library.  Libraries not out to encourage photocopying of entire books, though some people do it and pay for it. Let's not argue over the miscreants who do this vs. vast majority who just borrow books or temporarily access an electronic book.

The Internet archive if it contains books beyond their statutory (legal) copyright lifespan..  

This is hard to understand. 

What does this mean? It seems like an incomplete sentence. The Internet archive if it contains books beyond their statutory (legal) copyright lifespan..  

The Internet Archive has the right to loan books in the public domain. If it is not paying publishers for the right to loan copyrighted, material it is breaking the law. 

With regard to your law library example, you said the courts ruled in favor of the publishers. That seems to be clear. The libraries have to follow the court ruling. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, denniS said:

The Internet Archive has the right to loan books in the public domain. If it is not paying publishers for the right to loan copyrighted, material it is breaking the law. 

Yep.  Similar to movies/TV and music "file sharing".  A mainstream website will struggle to survive if they keep breaking the law.  The rights holders will continue to lose income by not finding a way to adapt.  It's not going away, but it is also not a reason to throw up folks' hands in defeat to piracy.  Find a better way - somewhere in the middle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Yep.  Similar to movies/TV and music "file sharing".  A mainstream website will struggle to survive if they keep breaking the law.  The rights holders will continue to lose income by not finding a way to adapt.  It's not going away, but it is also not a reason to throw up folks' hands in defeat to piracy.  Find a better way - somewhere in the middle.

His argument is he is doing the world a service by providing the books for free. It's a pretty weak argument considering the law is clear. Public libraries already fill this need legally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, denniS said:

Public libraries already fill this need legally.

...and can do a better job moving into the mid-21st century.  My wife uses the heck out of the library. I use the heck out of my Kindle. The library's e-book options pale in comparison to Amazon, direct from publishers, or pirated.  That's a shame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

...and can do a better job moving into the mid-21st century.  My wife uses the heck out of the library. I use the heck out of my Kindle. The library's e-book options pale in comparison to Amazon, direct from publishers, or pirated.  That's a shame.

..and everyone is hell-bent to cut the public library budget....then they can't strike a deal for better aggregate licensed e-book choices. E-books still cost money annually. It just takes up less real estate and maintenance.

I notice a big difference in e-book choices between Calgary Public Library and Toronto Public Library systems. Toronto has more (even though they are strapped to serve alot more  people), Toronto Public Library offers far more e-book choices.  (Wilbur wouldn't use them even if interested since he lives in a different, smaller municipality.)

Toronto has an aggressive broad fundraising event annually that attracts the wealthy, socialites, major national corporations, etc.  It's an event..to be seen and luxe during that evening. It's incredibly impressive and of envy among public library directors in North America. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

...and can do a better job moving into the mid-21st century.  My wife uses the heck out of the library. I use the heck out of my Kindle. The library's e-book options pale in comparison to Amazon, direct from publishers, or pirated.  That's a shame.

Your library's digital content is based on their budget. They can expand it at a cost. E-book costs for libraries is expensive.

Our library is well funded. I just got an email saying you can check out a Roku with Netflix, Disney, and HBOMax. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, denniS said:

E-book costs for libraries is expensive.

Which is a self-fulfilling "piracy" prophecy.  A person wants to read a library book but prefers to read on a Kindle.  By making it difficult or impossible for libraries to "loan" those books effectively, a reader is faced with a few options - one of which is EASY and, after dealing with the dopiness of the library, justifiable download from a website.

It sucks when processes are in place to make poor options better than they should be.  Make checking a e-book out easy and cost competitive, and you create a win-win. Make it difficult, and the readers may simply make it a win for them and a loss for the rights holders.  It's 2022. Figure it out, publishers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Which is a self-fulfilling "piracy" prophecy.  A person wants to read a library book but prefers to read on a Kindle.  By making it difficult or impossible for libraries to "loan" those books effectively, a reader is faced with a few options - one of which is EASY and, after dealing with the dopiness of the library, justifiable download from a website.

It sucks when processes are in place to make poor options better than they should be.  Make checking a e-book out easy and cost competitive, and you create a win-win. Make it difficult, and the readers may simply make it a win for them and a loss for the rights holders.  It's 2022. Figure it out, publishers.

The problem isn't the libraries or the publishers. It's Amazon. If you use an ipad, it is really simple. I'm tech challenged and was amazed at how easy it was. 

Amazon designed the kindles to sell you stuff. I used a kindle to read an e-book and jumped through all of their stupid hoops. At the last point, there are two options, a very prominent buy button and a small less conspicuous download button. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Which is a self-fulfilling "piracy" prophecy.  A person wants to read a library book but prefers to read on a Kindle.  By making it difficult or impossible for libraries to "loan" those books effectively, a reader is faced with a few options - one of which is EASY and, after dealing with the dopiness of the library, justifiable download from a website.

It sucks when processes are in place to make poor options better than they should be.  Make checking a e-book out easy and cost competitive, and you create a win-win. Make it difficult, and the readers may simply make it a win for them and a loss for the rights holders.  It's 2022. Figure it out, publishers.

Did you just justify stealing?

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...