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Another senseless school shooting


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27 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

This school did have armed school police who engaged the shooter to no avail. While I like this idea better than arming teachers, I think a bigger solution is called for, because as both you and I mentioned, this isn’t limited to schools. 

 

We have a gun problem, not just a school security problem.

It is a shame that none of the cops outside could get in the head shot that the shooter so richly deserved.  An article said the shooter  was wearing a body plate, not body armor as originally reported. I have no idea what that it but apparently it worked. 
 

It sounds the shooter had big time like issues that he should have been helped with, but by the time he advanced to this stage there was only one treatment left. :(

 

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2 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Agreed, but counting on our govt officials to address this issue hasn’t worked and likely not going to…

But why not? Surely the majority of citizens want to make SOME change(s). Why has there been no meaningful legislation since Sandy Hook? I see David Hogg from Parkland is pleading to get legislative buy-in for Universal background checks. He probably needs to convince 12 Senators who haven’t supported this previously.  But can he???

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7 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

But why not? Surely the majority of citizens want to make SOME change(s). Why has there been no meaningful legislation since Sandy Hook? I see David Hogg from Parkland is pleading to get legislative buy-in for Universal background checks. He probably needs to convince 12 Senators who haven’t supported this previously.  But can he???

That’s not a question I can answer but I’d rather we not wait for them to figure it out if they ever do.

While they screw around trying to enact legislation why can’t an executive order be made to add infrastructure to our schools?   How many billions went to Ukraine?  Couldn’t the same be given to States to make our schools safer? 

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Our country has 5% of the World’s population. Our country has 43% of all the guns on Earth

This!  So much THIS!!!!  

When are we going to own it, stop all the excuses and pretending and doublespeak and protecting self interests and listening to PR BS from the world's biggest lobby, and the money driven politics?  90% of the country at voting age agree that we need tighter gun laws.  50 Senators are holding 234,000,000 Americans literally at gunpoint to keep us from tighter gun control.  Our system is just F$%^&^D UP!

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY has the internet, mental illness, video games, anger, animosity......  Many of them have more of it than we do.  They don't have this kind of carnage.  Why, what do we have that they don't?

Our country has 5% of the World’s population. Our country has 43% of all the guns on Earth

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Once again, the news media is going to beat this to death for weeks, letting some unstable kids realize how famous they'll be if they imitate the crime.

The proof to me that's true came right after 9-11 in the Fall and Winter of 2001-2.  For decades, kids at home have been phoning bomb scares into schools to get their friends out of tests.  They are seldom taken seriously, but after 9-11 they had to be.

So, 2-3 days/week, from September to January, I was leading teenagers out of our high school onto the parking lots and grass of the campus - the two middle schools attached to our largest-high-school-in-Maryland complex used our Old Mill High Patriots football stadium.

The kids were not allowed to go to their lockers for coats, so they were outside freezing for 30-45 minutes in Nov-Jan while cops and dogs searched our huge complex.  One bomb scare, three of my female chemistry students walked up to me and said, "Mr. C, can you find out how much longer we're going to be our here? Our headlights are on!"

I didn't get that they meant they were so cold their nipples were hard, took three steps toward an administrator to find out, then it hit me.  I swung around with my mouth open in disbelief and look at the girls and they burst out laughing so hard everybody wanted to know what happened.  I'd walk down the halls and hear "headlights" called out for a couple weeks.

These bomb scares were happening all over and news media sensationalized them to the hilt.

Finally, the school systems (which are countywide in Maryland) and the police departments (which are countywide in Maryland) got sick of it and decided to use private phone numbers to communicate with each other.  The media was cut out of the loop and couldn't eavesdrop on police scanners, etc.  The bomb scares were no longer publicized.

Within two weeks, there were no more bomb scares in Maryland - and I learned that through an assistant school system superintendent who used to be our Principal who was in touch with the other counties.

THAT is what happens when the media can't sensationalize everything and beat to death with coverage that goes on and on for weeks,, has interviews with parents of school shootings from previous years and has discussions about the psychology of the killers - yet never mentions any details about our awful mental health system where 50% of the mental hospital beds in 1981 are gone now.

 

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From a teacher friend:

I was up early writing our representatives.

I detailed to them how I had to teach 9 year olds to exit a window and run fast but silent to hide in the nearby neighborhood and knock on doors and hide behind houses.

How I had to teach them to expect me later and not look back for me. 

Because what can I do but stand by the door with the frigging fire extinguisher to give them more time to get farther away while they go through the window one by one.

I told our Senators and Representative I was doing my job and they need to do theirs.

 

Fuck.

How many times have I written the same letter?

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Thoughts and prayers just aren't working.

US school shootings:

 

Thurston High School.

Columbine High School. 

Heritage High School. 

Deming Middle School. 

Fort Gibson Middle School. 

Buell Elementary School. 

Lake Worth Middle School. 

University of Arkansas. 

Junipero Serra High School. 

Santana High School. 

Bishop Neumann High School. 

Pacific Lutheran University. 

Granite Hills High School. 

Lew Wallace High School. 

Martin Luther King, Jr. High School. 

Appalachian School of Law. 

Washington High School. 

Conception Abbey. 

Benjamin Tasker Middle School. 

University of Arizona. 

Lincoln High School. 

John McDonogh High School. 

Red Lion Area Junior High School. 

Case Western Reserve University. 

Rocori High School. 

Ballou High School. 

Randallstown High School. 

Bowen High School. 

Red Lake Senior High School. 

Harlan Community Academy High School. 

Campbell County High School. 

Milwee Middle School. 

Roseburg High School. 

Pine Middle School. 

Essex Elementary School. 

Duquesne University. 

Platte Canyon High School. 

Weston High School. 

West Nickel Mines School. 

Joplin Memorial Middle School. 

Henry Foss High School. 

Compton Centennial High School. 

Virginia Tech. 

Success Tech Academy. 

Miami Carol City Senior High School. 

Hamilton High School. 

Louisiana Technical College. 

Mitchell High School. 

E.O. Green Junior High School. 

Northern Illinois University. 

Lakota Middle School. 

Knoxville Central High School. 

Willoughby South High School. 

Henry Ford High School. 

University of Central Arkansas. 

Dillard High School. 

Dunbar High School. 

Hampton University. 

Harvard College. 

Larose-Cut Off Middle School. 

International Studies Academy. 

Skyline College. 

Discovery Middle School. 

University of Alabama. 

DeKalb School. 

Deer Creek Middle School. 

Ohio State University. 

Mumford High School. 

University of Texas. 

Kelly Elementary School. 

Marinette High School. 

Aurora Central High School. 

Millard South High School. 

Martinsville West Middle School. 

Worthing High School. 

Millard South High School.

Highlands Intermediate School. 

Cape Fear High School. 

Chardon High School. 

Episcopal School of Jacksonville. 

Oikos University. 

Hamilton High School. 

Perry Hall School. 

Normal Community High School. 

University of South Alabama. 

Banner Academy South. 

University of Southern California. 

Sandy Hook Elementary School. 

Apostolic Revival Center Christian School. 

Taft Union High School. 

Osborn High School. 

Stevens Institute of Business and Arts. 

Hazard Community and Technical College. 

Chicago State University. 

Lone Star College-North. 

Cesar Chavez High School. 

Price Middle School. 

University of Central Florida. 

New River Community College. 

Grambling State University. 

Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 

Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School. 

Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy. 

North Panola High School. 

Carver High School. 

Agape Christian Academy. 

Sparks Middle School. 

North Carolina A&T State University. 

Stephenson High School. 

Brashear High School. 

West Orange High School. 

Arapahoe High School. 

Edison High School. 

Liberty Technology Magnet High School. 

Hillhouse High School. 

Berrendo Middle School. 

Purdue University. 

South Carolina State University. 

Los Angeles Valley College. 

Charles F. Brush High School. 

University of Southern California. 

Georgia Regents University. 

Academy of Knowledge Preschool. 

Benjamin Banneker High School. 

D. H. Conley High School. 

East English Village Preparatory Academy. 

Paine College. 

Georgia Gwinnett College. 

John F. Kennedy High School. 

Seattle Pacific University. 

Reynolds High School. 

Indiana State University. 

Albemarle High School. 

Fern Creek Traditional High School. 

Langston Hughes High School. 

Marysville Pilchuck High School. 

Florida State University. 

Miami Carol City High School. 

Rogers State University. 

Rosemary Anderson High School. 

Wisconsin Lutheran High School. 

Frederick High School. 

Tenaya Middle School. 

Bethune-Cookman University. 

Pershing Elementary School. 

Wayne Community College. 

J.B. Martin Middle School. 

Southwestern Classical Academy. 

Savannah State University. 

Harrisburg High School. 

Umpqua Community College. 

Northern Arizona University. 

Texas Southern University. 

Tennessee State University. 

Winston-Salem State University. 

Mojave High School. 

Lawrence Central High School. 

Franklin High School. 

Muskegon Heights High School. 

Independence High School. 

Madison High School. 

Antigo High School. 

University of California-Los Angeles. 

Jeremiah Burke High School. 

Alpine High School. 

Townville Elementary School. 

Vigor High School. 

Linden McKinley STEM Academy. 

June Jordan High School for Equity. 

Union Middle School. 

Mueller Park Junior High School. 

West Liberty-Salem High School. 

University of Washington. 

King City High School. 

North Park Elementary School. 

North Lake College. 

Freeman High School. 

Mattoon High School. 

Rancho Tehama Elementary School. 

Aztec High School. 

Wake Forest University. 

Italy High School. 

NET Charter High School. 

Marshall County High School. 

Sal Castro Middle School. 

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School

Great Mills High School

Central Michigan University

Huffman High School

Frederick Douglass High School

Forest High School

Highland High School

Dixon High School

Santa Fe High School

Noblesville West Middle School

University of North Carolina Charlotte

STEM School Highlands Ranch

Edgewood High School

Palm Beach Central High School

Providence Career & Technical Academy

Fairley High School (school bus)

Canyon Springs High School

Dennis Intermediate School

Florida International University 

Central Elementary School

Cascade Middle School

Davidson High School

Prairie View A & M University 

Altascocita High School

Central Academy of Excellence

Cleveland High School

Robert E. Lee High School

Cheyenne South High School

Grambling State University

Blountsville Elementary School

Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)

Prescott High School

College of the Mainland

Wynbrooke Elementary School

UNC Charlotte

Riverview Florida (school bus)

Second Chance High School

Carman-Ainsworth High School

Williwaw Elementary School

Monroe Clark Middle School

Central Catholic High School

Jeanette High School

Eastern Hills High School

DeAnza High School

Ridgway High School

Reginald F. Lewis High School

Saugus High School

Pleasantville High School

Waukesha South High School

Oshkosh High School

Catholic Academy of New Haven

Bellaire High School

North Crowley High School

McAuliffe Elementary School 

South Oak Cliff High School

Texas A&M University-Commerce

Sonora High School

Western Illinois University

Oxford High School

Robb Elementary School

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5 hours ago, ChrisL said:

I get it, but you are focusing on just one aspect of my point.  There is a lot that can be done other than armed guards and I’m really in favor of more School Resource officers than armed guards anyway. 

But I guess we’ll just settle for prayers & condolences instead…

That's what we do.  Over and over and over again.  The shooter bought 2 assault rifles legally under Texas law for his 18'th birthday.  There were no laws in Texas to get in his way.  He was engaged by law enforcement but managed to enter the school anyway and get into a class room.  The law enforcement officers appear to have been shot but not killed.  Once in the classroom all hell broke loose.

We are well beyond stopping the train now.  No one want's to admit that 5% of the worlds population with 45% of it's firearms is an insane situation.

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1 hour ago, dinneR said:

Thoughts and prayers just aren't working.

US school shootings:

 

Thurston High School.

Columbine High School. 

Heritage High School. 

Deming Middle School. 

Fort Gibson Middle School. 

Buell Elementary School. 

Lake Worth Middle School. 

University of Arkansas. 

Junipero Serra High School. 

Santana High School. 

Bishop Neumann High School. 

Pacific Lutheran University. 

Granite Hills High School. 

Lew Wallace High School. 

Martin Luther King, Jr. High School. 

Appalachian School of Law. 

Washington High School. 

Conception Abbey. 

Benjamin Tasker Middle School. 

University of Arizona. 

Lincoln High School. 

John McDonogh High School. 

Red Lion Area Junior High School. 

Case Western Reserve University. 

Rocori High School. 

Ballou High School. 

Randallstown High School. 

Bowen High School. 

Red Lake Senior High School. 

Harlan Community Academy High School. 

Campbell County High School. 

Milwee Middle School. 

Roseburg High School. 

Pine Middle School. 

Essex Elementary School. 

Duquesne University. 

Platte Canyon High School. 

Weston High School. 

West Nickel Mines School. 

Joplin Memorial Middle School. 

Henry Foss High School. 

Compton Centennial High School. 

Virginia Tech. 

Success Tech Academy. 

Miami Carol City Senior High School. 

Hamilton High School. 

Louisiana Technical College. 

Mitchell High School. 

E.O. Green Junior High School. 

Northern Illinois University. 

Lakota Middle School. 

Knoxville Central High School. 

Willoughby South High School. 

Henry Ford High School. 

University of Central Arkansas. 

Dillard High School. 

Dunbar High School. 

Hampton University. 

Harvard College. 

Larose-Cut Off Middle School. 

International Studies Academy. 

Skyline College. 

Discovery Middle School. 

University of Alabama. 

DeKalb School. 

Deer Creek Middle School. 

Ohio State University. 

Mumford High School. 

University of Texas. 

Kelly Elementary School. 

Marinette High School. 

Aurora Central High School. 

Millard South High School. 

Martinsville West Middle School. 

Worthing High School. 

Millard South High School.

Highlands Intermediate School. 

Cape Fear High School. 

Chardon High School. 

Episcopal School of Jacksonville. 

Oikos University. 

Hamilton High School. 

Perry Hall School. 

Normal Community High School. 

University of South Alabama. 

Banner Academy South. 

University of Southern California. 

Sandy Hook Elementary School. 

Apostolic Revival Center Christian School. 

Taft Union High School. 

Osborn High School. 

Stevens Institute of Business and Arts. 

Hazard Community and Technical College. 

Chicago State University. 

Lone Star College-North. 

Cesar Chavez High School. 

Price Middle School. 

University of Central Florida. 

New River Community College. 

Grambling State University. 

Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 

Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School. 

Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy. 

North Panola High School. 

Carver High School. 

Agape Christian Academy. 

Sparks Middle School. 

North Carolina A&T State University. 

Stephenson High School. 

Brashear High School. 

West Orange High School. 

Arapahoe High School. 

Edison High School. 

Liberty Technology Magnet High School. 

Hillhouse High School. 

Berrendo Middle School. 

Purdue University. 

South Carolina State University. 

Los Angeles Valley College. 

Charles F. Brush High School. 

University of Southern California. 

Georgia Regents University. 

Academy of Knowledge Preschool. 

Benjamin Banneker High School. 

D. H. Conley High School. 

East English Village Preparatory Academy. 

Paine College. 

Georgia Gwinnett College. 

John F. Kennedy High School. 

Seattle Pacific University. 

Reynolds High School. 

Indiana State University. 

Albemarle High School. 

Fern Creek Traditional High School. 

Langston Hughes High School. 

Marysville Pilchuck High School. 

Florida State University. 

Miami Carol City High School. 

Rogers State University. 

Rosemary Anderson High School. 

Wisconsin Lutheran High School. 

Frederick High School. 

Tenaya Middle School. 

Bethune-Cookman University. 

Pershing Elementary School. 

Wayne Community College. 

J.B. Martin Middle School. 

Southwestern Classical Academy. 

Savannah State University. 

Harrisburg High School. 

Umpqua Community College. 

Northern Arizona University. 

Texas Southern University. 

Tennessee State University. 

Winston-Salem State University. 

Mojave High School. 

Lawrence Central High School. 

Franklin High School. 

Muskegon Heights High School. 

Independence High School. 

Madison High School. 

Antigo High School. 

University of California-Los Angeles. 

Jeremiah Burke High School. 

Alpine High School. 

Townville Elementary School. 

Vigor High School. 

Linden McKinley STEM Academy. 

June Jordan High School for Equity. 

Union Middle School. 

Mueller Park Junior High School. 

West Liberty-Salem High School. 

University of Washington. 

King City High School. 

North Park Elementary School. 

North Lake College. 

Freeman High School. 

Mattoon High School. 

Rancho Tehama Elementary School. 

Aztec High School. 

Wake Forest University. 

Italy High School. 

NET Charter High School. 

Marshall County High School. 

Sal Castro Middle School. 

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School

Great Mills High School

Central Michigan University

Huffman High School

Frederick Douglass High School

Forest High School

Highland High School

Dixon High School

Santa Fe High School

Noblesville West Middle School

University of North Carolina Charlotte

STEM School Highlands Ranch

Edgewood High School

Palm Beach Central High School

Providence Career & Technical Academy

Fairley High School (school bus)

Canyon Springs High School

Dennis Intermediate School

Florida International University 

Central Elementary School

Cascade Middle School

Davidson High School

Prairie View A & M University 

Altascocita High School

Central Academy of Excellence

Cleveland High School

Robert E. Lee High School

Cheyenne South High School

Grambling State University

Blountsville Elementary School

Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)

Prescott High School

College of the Mainland

Wynbrooke Elementary School

UNC Charlotte

Riverview Florida (school bus)

Second Chance High School

Carman-Ainsworth High School

Williwaw Elementary School

Monroe Clark Middle School

Central Catholic High School

Jeanette High School

Eastern Hills High School

DeAnza High School

Ridgway High School

Reginald F. Lewis High School

Saugus High School

Pleasantville High School

Waukesha South High School

Oshkosh High School

Catholic Academy of New Haven

Bellaire High School

North Crowley High School

McAuliffe Elementary School 

South Oak Cliff High School

Texas A&M University-Commerce

Sonora High School

Western Illinois University

Oxford High School

Robb Elementary School

Dennis do you have the source of this? I would love to repost it elsewhere. 

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2 hours ago, 12string said:

Our country has 5% of the World’s population. Our country has 43% of all the guns on Earth

This!  So much THIS!!!!  

When are we going to own it, stop all the excuses and pretending and doublespeak and protecting self interests and listening to PR BS from the world's biggest lobby, and the money driven politics?  90% of the country at voting age agree that we need tighter gun laws.  50 Senators are holding 234,000,000 Americans literally at gunpoint to keep us from tighter gun control.  Our system is just F$%^&^D UP!

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY has the internet, mental illness, video games, anger, animosity......  Many of them have more of it than we do.  They don't have this kind of carnage.  Why, what do we have that they don't?

Our country has 5% of the World’s population. Our country has 43% of all the guns on Earth

I'd argue is part culture too.  

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34 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

We are well beyond stopping the train now

This is my concern, also.  We can fix laws today, but there are still over 400 MILLION gins laying around, waiting to be used by their current owners or stolen to be resold on the black market.  No one (in a position to make it happen) is asking to reduce that number, just make it harder for insane people to legally buy guns and shoot kids.

We can't stop this, but we CAN reduce it.

Standing up to the gun lobby and the PR from the people that lobby owns can also help change the culture.

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5 minutes ago, 12string said:

This is my concern, also.  We can fix laws today, but there are still over 400 MILLION gins laying around, waiting to be used by their current owners or stolen to be resold on the black market.  No one (in a position to make it happen) is asking to reduce that number, just make it harder for insane people to legally buy guns and shoot kids.

We can't stop this, but we CAN reduce it.

Standing up to the gun lobby and the PR from the people that lobby owns can also help change the culture.

I agree.  It is much to easy to buy a gun in this country.  I think one way to control this would be to try and limit ammo sales, but even that is going to be hard to do.

We are going to have to harden our schools and find a way to limit access to them.  Armed guards or police on EVERY campus.   
 

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6 minutes ago, jsharr said:

We are going to have to harden our schools and find a way to limit access to them.  Armed guards or police on EVERY campus.   
 

I keep local news going in my office and there was a former cop & security “expert” saying exactly what I have been saying here. He even used the same term “hardening the target”.  A hard target doesn’t necessarily mean putting armed guards on campus either.

I can lock down a building with a couple of mouse clicks but schools can’t.  There is gunshot detection systems we can layer in to access control to lock down a building without human intervention.

How about restricting access to one entry point & building a man trap, we often call them “vestibules” so that there is a second more secure doorway to slow down a shooter should they breach the first? Bullet proof doors & glass? Removing door knobs on emergency exit exterior doors & steel latch guards to make them essentially breech proof.  Video monitoring so that an SOC operator can literally isolate a shooter in a particular area by coordinating video with acces control.  For example when my son worked for my firm  I used to F with him by locking him out of his suite when he left to go to the bathroom. He’d flip me off in the camera and I’d open the door for him remotely…  The technology is there and so easy to manage.

All of this and much more is being employed in the private sector & secure govt facilities and is available in our schools as well.  So much that can be done which isn’t being done.

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14 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I keep local news going in my office and there was a former cop & security “expert” saying exactly what I have been saying here. He even used the same term “hardening the target”.  A hard target doesn’t necessarily mean putting armed guards on campus either.

I can lock down a building with a couple of mouse clicks but schools can’t.  There is gunshot detection systems we can layer in to access control to lock down a building without human intervention.

How about restricting access to one entry point & building a man trap, we often call them “vestibules” so that there is a second more secure doorway to slow down a shooter should they breach the first? Bullet proof doors & glass? Removing door knobs on emergency exit exterior doors & steel latch guards to make them essentially breech proof.  Video monitoring so that an SOC operator can literally isolate a shooter in a particular area by coordinating video with acces control.  For example when my son worked for my firm  I used to F with him by locking him out of his suite when he left to go to the bathroom. He’d flip me off in the camera and I’d open the door for him remotely…  The technology is there and so easy to manage.

All of this and much more is being employed in the private sector & secure govt facilities and is available in our schools as well.  So much that can be done which isn’t being done.

What do you do about recess?

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1 hour ago, 12string said:

This is my concern, also.  We can fix laws today, but there are still over 400 MILLION gins laying around, waiting to be used by their current owners or stolen to be resold on the black market.  No one (in a position to make it happen) is asking to reduce that number, just make it harder for insane people to legally buy guns and shoot kids.

We can't stop this, but we CAN reduce it.

Standing up to the gun lobby and the PR from the people that lobby owns can also help change the culture.

Aggressive enforcement of existing laws would help.  Things like mandatory life sentences for using a gun in a crime might help.  Here in CT after Sandy Hook they passed laws such that you can't even buy ammunition without a background check.  Small changes.  Some help, some don't.  There is no perfect law and the answer is never "it won't help so why do it."

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10 minutes ago, dinneR said:

What do you do about recess?

Just a few thoughts as schools have different lay outs…

Seal the playgrounds with fencing.  I get nobody wants barbed wire on schools but 9’ fences help.  There are materials you can weave through the fencing to obstruct view from the outside.  Or use block walls.   Clear zones around the fence exterior with video. Buzz the kids out, lock the doors during recess & buzz them back in.  

School officials with radios on the yard to an SOC operator so they can coordinate activities. School resource officers posted near yards during recess.

I mean those or just simple thoughts that come to mind. If I was directed to come up with a security plan for a school I could do a thorough assessment & action plan. 

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On 5/24/2022 at 6:06 PM, Prophet Zacharia said:

I’m not sure that’s accurate. There’s been escalating sales of guns and ammo over the past decade or so.

 

Up until the 90's, the NRA was opposed to the private ownership of AR-15 type weapons.

Additionally, there has been a serious decline in the character of the American people, as polls strongly show people who were adults by the 80's believe.

In 1963-64 on school year Fridays, another 8th grade boy and I took a marked, white, bank moneybag of cash during after-lunch recess to a bank a 1/2 mile away.  There was $300 to $600 in it: $2800 to $5600 in today's dollars.

We walked about 10 minutes to the bank, taking shortcuts through alleys in lower-middle class neighbors at the same time every Friday.  No one considered that we were in any danger and we weren't.

Today, two adult armed guards would be in more danger.  There has been a new attitude in America that we owe nothing to society.  The motto on our coins should be changed from "E Pluribus Unum" ("From many, one") to "Me! Me! Me First!"

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It is sad that The Onion really is America's finest news source.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/25/1101269886/the-onion-mass-shooting-satire

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

 
 
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f287f8886dcdf393d4080534a602432c.jpgUVALDE, TX—In the hours following a violent rampage in Texas in which a lone attacker killed at least 21 individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said Idaho resident Kathy Miller, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this individual from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what they really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past eight years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless."
 
 
 
 
 
 
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@ChrisL I am slowly concerned around to your description of security systems for schools. However they also remind me of systems used in the county jail when I was contracting with the county on IT work. I always felt vulnerable to the whims of the jailers in allowing me to move from unit to unit to do my job. I’m sure that aspect, as well as cost, is preventing schools from moving forward on such systems. Like I said, I’m turning to your position, but I also understand why there is resistance. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, 12string said:

Our country has 5% of the World’s population. Our country has 43% of all the guns on Earth

This!  So much THIS!!!!  

When are we going to own it, stop all the excuses and pretending and doublespeak and protecting self interests and listening to PR BS from the world's biggest lobby, and the money driven politics?  90% of the country at voting age agree that we need tighter gun laws.  50 Senators are holding 234,000,000 Americans literally at gunpoint to keep us from tighter gun control.  Our system is just F$%^&^D UP!

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY has the internet, mental illness, video games, anger, animosity......  Many of them have more of it than we do.  They don't have this kind of carnage.  Why, what do we have that they don't?

Our country has 5% of the World’s population. Our country has 43% of all the guns on Earth

I don't know what to say anymore.  Square had the balls to say  no guns at home.

Not any of my close friends are armed. Honest....it IS  part cultural, with support of some gun control laws. It's very different mindset to grow up in a society that doesn't embed bearing arms, in our national constitution.  Of course, we still have our own problems, shootings occur like the example I gave of our bike shop owner friend. 

By the way, when dearie had 100 acre farm with cattle, pigs...where he and ex, plus 2 young kids spent vacations, lots of weekends, they had no gun.  They were there for a decade. The thought never occurred to him. Yes, they had their 2 dogs brought along all the time to farm   Yea, sure ....and they lived in heart of downtown Toronto where certain things happen. Same for myself... I've lived in rougher neighbourhoods for  actually the whole time in Toronto.  Almost 18 yrs...living, working, biking and taking transit. Nearby on streets, some drug dealing, there were the occasional shootings. 

I have sister who works in downtown Toronto hospital (of 4 major acute care hospitals in that tight area) where they do admit in gunshot patients, overdosed, knifings...  she has never even thought of getting a gun. She has 3 (now) adult children. 

I worked in a spinal injured adult rehabilitation hospital for 3 yrs. in Toronto.  Occasional paraplegic patient, was the result of gunshot wound.  This is what we may not know of the gunshot injuries....after effects also.

 

 

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I own a rifle. I didn’t buy it. I inherited from my dad’s large collection. I only wanted one as a keepsake. Guns were a tool when I grew up in the country. We had invasive possums, raccoons and coyotes. Dad also used a 22 to pick off blackbirds around the garden. He was a really good shot and felt shotguns were sloppy. 
Before the inherited rifle, I never felt the need to have one in town. I still don’t need it for “self defense “. I appreciate the engineering and precision that goes into a firearm, but I don’t “need” one. I don’t get the need to brandish and display them-especially in public. The obsession with possession of them has reached unhealthy levels. 
Aside from background checks and Red Flag laws, gun owners should be required to have firearm liability coverage spelled out in their insurance policies. It works for automobiles and can easily be interpreted as the “well regulated “ part of the 2nd amendment. Will it stop these types of guys? Not necessarily, but insurance actuaries will figure out the risk presented by certain individuals very quickly. Any little bit that slows the unhinged has to help. Butterfly wings…

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48 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

I don't know what to say anymore.  Square had the balls to say  no guns at home.

Not any of my close friends are armed. Honest....it IS  part cultural, with support of some gun control laws. It's very different mindset to grow up in a society that doesn't embed bearing arms, in our national constitution.  Of course, we still have our own problems, shootings occur like the example I gave of our bike shop owner friend. 

By the way, when dearie had 100 acre farm with cattle, pigs...where he and ex, plus 2 young kids spent vacations, lots of weekends, they had no gun.  They were there for a decade. The thought never occurred to him. Yes, they had their 2 dogs brought along all the time to farm   Yea, sure ....and they lived in heart of downtown Toronto where certain things happen. Same for myself... I've lived in rougher neighbourhoods for  actually the whole time in Toronto.  Almost 18 yrs...living, working, biking and taking transit. Nearby on streets, some drug dealing, there were the occasional shootings. 

I have sister who works in downtown Toronto hospital (of 4 major acute care hospitals in that tight area) where they do admit in gunshot patients, overdosed, knifings...  she has never even thought of getting a gun. She has 3 (now) adult children. 

I worked in a spinal injured adult rehabilitation hospital for 3 yrs. in Toronto.  Occasional paraplegic patient, was the result of gunshot wound.  This is what we may not know of the gunshot injuries....after effects also.

 

 

I think you also have to differentiate between what types of guns.  Many of us own hunting rifles, sporting arms and pistols of various types.  But these mass shootings are mostly carried out by high capacity military style assault rifles.  

Our constitution guarantees the right to keep & bear arms so there is a constitutional precedence.  But John Q Public can’t own a machine gun, so why are they allowed to own assault rifles?   Our govt can regulate the type of weapons we can own, it’s already being done. So why haven’t we restricted the access to assault rifles? 

We have a gun culture here and many of us can’t understand it.  I certainly wouldn’t expect a Canadian to understand it either.  
 

 

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Excellent proposal gw! My wife was just saying the same thing. 
And I agree with Chris.  Good conparison to machine guns since there seems to be very little if any difference. In fact, how is an all or ar NOT a machine gun?  Aren’t they full automatic?

hmm, I guess snot, just a really fast semi-automatic. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2018/02/15/4-basic-questions-about-the-ar-15/

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5 hours ago, ChrisL said:

So why haven’t we restricted the access to assault rifles? 

We can, and we did until 2004. So we can again if NRA lobbying is put aside. I do see a few politicians are skipping Friday’s NRA conference in Texas, but whether others will follow this lead or instead double down on their defense of the NRA position remains to be seen, and it’s impact, if any, on voters.

People often say the cat is out of the bag, that it’s too late, there are too many guns out there already for restrictions on new sales to make a difference. But we hear stories all the time of people buying these guns within months of their shooting rampages, so that implies effecting new sales could matter. Universal background checks, red flag laws both would make a difference. And I do like the liability insurance angle. And prosecuting anyone who provides (gives/sells) a gun to someone ineligible for purchase due to background check issues. All of these things could help, without impacting hunting, sports shooting and home/self defense usage.

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the "well regulated" part of the 2nd doesn't refer in any way shape or form to guns or individual owners.  It refers to militias to which those individuals belonged.  Militias that were required because at the time of the writing, the US Congress was adamantly opposed to a standing, government operated army as that was England used to control the colonies.  But they still wanted a standing defense corps, so they turned to individual well regulated militias to be conscripted if needed.  Later, it was determined that the original idea was untenable in a changing world, so we got a standing army - specifically structured to be overseen by civilians, not military.  One could argue the decision to create a standing army rendered the 2nd amendment no longer necessary.  As late as 1939, the SCOTUS officially reaffirmed that there was no individual right to gun ownership.  They then mostly stood on the sidelines, until 2008 when they broke precedent and declared an individual aspect to the 2nd.  And now they are about to further limit states' and cities' ability to limit concealed carry permits.  Based on hearing transcripts, it appears this will pass by that oh so coincidental 6-3 count.  Amazing that "originalists" have no problem ignoring what the original intent of the 2nd was when it comes to gun manufacturers' and NRA dollars.

 

So now our only way to keep our kids alive is to send them to jails instead of schools.  That's going to have major long term impact on society

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4 minutes ago, 12string said:

the "well regulated" part of the 2nd doesn't refer in any way shape or form to guns or individual owners.  It refers to militias to which those individuals belonged.  Militias that were required because at the time of the writing, the US Congress was adamantly opposed to a standing, government operated army as that was England used to control the colonies.  But they still wanted a standing defense corps, so they turned to individual well regulated militias to be conscripted if needed.  Later, it was determined that the original idea was untenable in a changing world, so we got a standing army - specifically structured to be overseen by civilians, not military.  One could argue the decision to create a standing army rendered the 2nd amendment no longer necessary.  As late as 1939, the SCOTUS officially reaffirmed that there was no individual right to gun ownership.  They then mostly stood on the sidelines, until 2008 when they broke precedent and declared an individual aspect to the 2nd.  And now they are about to further limit states' and cities' ability to limit concealed carry permits.  Based on hearing transcripts, it appears this will pass by that oh so coincidental 6-3 count.  Amazing that "originalists" have no problem ignoring what the original intent of the 2nd was when it comes to gun manufacturers' and NRA dollars.

 

So now our only way to keep our kids alive is to send them to jails instead of schools.  That's going to have major long term impact on society

You have to include a portion of our population that believes that a gun is the only thing standing between them and sudden death at the hands of ..........................pick one.  Immigrants, criminals, the government.

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9 minutes ago, Philander Seabury said:

Wow, that is interesting and certainly news to me!  Is it real?  Or like an Abraham Lincoln internet quote?  :D

 

Don't get used to it.  Within a month or so the Supremes will be issuing a new version of their view of the gun laws around the country and will probably emasculate any attempt to control guns for all time.  

The case:

 Now we all are wait­ing for the Supreme Court’s ruling in Bruen, an opin­ion that some court watch­ers say won’t come until some­time in late June. This case is the chal­lenge to New York’s 108-year-old concealed hand­gun law. The chal­lengers claim they should­n’t have to show a special need to get a license to carry a gun that way. A major­ity of justices seemed skep­tical of New York’s rationale for the law when they asked about it during oral argu­ment last fall. But Bruen is just the start of what some lawyers and advoc­ates say will be a relent­less effort by the Court to trans­form gun regu­la­tion around the United States.

 

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Enacting stricter gun control laws won't solve the problem because violence via guns isn't the problem - it's a symptom.

Any proposal for stricter gun control laws as solution needs to provide a reasoned and logical presentation why places that already have strict(er) gun control laws experience high levels of gun violence.  If strict gun control laws worked, then the places that had those laws would not experience the high levels of gun violence that now do occur.  One cannot deny the reality - high levels of gun violence occur where strict gun control laws are in place, and those laws do not prevent the violence.  And if we have clear evidence that strict gun controls don't prevent violence, how does one present a logical, reasoned, and unemotional case that they will even come close to having the intended effect?

Those laws don't prevent the violence because the people who murder, steal, harm others and otherwise don't care about breaking those laws clearly have no compunction about breaking laws regarding gun control.  Stricter gun control laws form no meaningful deterrent.

People who don't use guns to murder, injure, or steal from others refrain from that behavior because they have a respect for life and a respect for other people.  They don't refrain from that behavior because of gun control laws; they refrain from such behavior because of their inherent sense of right and wrong.

In the aftermath of these tragedies people clamor for 'a solution' or 'the solution'.  There is no one solution to avoiding or preventing school shootings.  Stricter gun control laws are certainly not that solution because the evidence of their failure to prevent violence is clear, so why pursue a path destined to fail?

One solution is to educate, raise, or convince more people to respect life and to respect others.  Bah! you say, easier said than done, impossible to measure, nearly as impossible to do.  Unfortunately our society is geared to the instant answer that can be purchased by a credit card from Amazon, or the instant answer received by posing the question to Siri.  All the same, I don't believe it can be denied that if anyone committing any sort of gun violence had a great respect for life - particularly the lives of others - that they would not be committing those crimes in the first place.

Such a change, though, requires a cultural shift away from an intense societal focus of self and self-validation to one more balanced between self and society.  That will take years, and probably decades.  In the mean time, certain effective, interim measures such as hardening schools would help to reduce (not prevent) incidents like this.  Think of all the places our society 'hardens' merely to protect property.  It is illogical that we accept the hardening of some places to protect property but are reluctant to harden schools to protect children.

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15 hours ago, dinneR said:

It is sad that The Onion really is America's finest news source.

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/25/1101269886/the-onion-mass-shooting-satire

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

 
 
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f287f8886dcdf393d4080534a602432c.jpgUVALDE, TX—In the hours following a violent rampage in Texas in which a lone attacker killed at least 21 individuals and injured several others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said Idaho resident Kathy Miller, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this individual from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what they really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past eight years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless."
 
 
 
 
 
 

Unfortunate they got to reuse this, yet again.

 

E9D45645-ABEF-409C-83AF-FAD1CD04FD9E.png

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7 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Enacting stricter gun control laws won't solve the problem because violence via guns isn't the problem - it's a symptom.

They won’t solve the problems of society, but they would limit the access of an angry 18 yo from easy means of killing a bunch of people while police stood outside. 

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32 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

One solution is to educate, raise, or convince more people to respect life and to respect others.  Bah! you say, easier said than done, impossible to measure, nearly as impossible to do.

I'd say "Go for it!"  No way I'm saying "Bah" and will WHOLEHEARTEDLY love to hear any and all suggestions and plans for getting there. It sure would be interesting to hear what you're thinking will work.

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33 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Enacting stricter gun control laws won't solve the problem because violence via guns isn't the problem - it's a symptom.

Any proposal for stricter gun control laws as solution needs to provide a reasoned and logical presentation why places that already have strict(er) gun control laws experience high levels of gun violence.  If strict gun control laws worked, then the places that had those laws would not experience the high levels of gun violence that now do occur.  One cannot deny the reality - high levels of gun violence occur where strict gun control laws are in place, and those laws do not prevent the violence.  And if we have clear evidence that strict gun controls don't prevent violence, how does one present a logical, reasoned, and unemotional case that they will even come close to having the intended effect?

Those laws don't prevent the violence because the people who murder, steal, harm others and otherwise don't care about breaking those laws clearly have no compunction about breaking laws regarding gun control.  Stricter gun control laws form no meaningful deterrent.

People who don't use guns to murder, injure, or steal from others refrain from that behavior because they have a respect for life and a respect for other people.  They don't refrain from that behavior because of gun control laws; they refrain from such behavior because of their inherent sense of right and wrong.

In the aftermath of these tragedies people clamor for 'a solution' or 'the solution'.  There is no one solution to avoiding or preventing school shootings.  Stricter gun control laws are certainly not that solution because the evidence of their failure to prevent violence is clear, so why pursue a path destined to fail?

One solution is to educate, raise, or convince more people to respect life and to respect others.  Bah! you say, easier said than done, impossible to measure, nearly as impossible to do.  Unfortunately our society is geared to the instant answer that can be purchased by a credit card from Amazon, or the instant answer received by posing the question to Siri.  All the same, I don't believe it can be denied that if anyone committing any sort of gun violence had a great respect for life - particularly the lives of others - that they would not be committing those crimes in the first place.

Such a change, though, requires a cultural shift away from an intense societal focus of self and self-validation to one more balanced between self and society.  That will take years, and probably decades.  In the mean time, certain effective, interim measures such as hardening schools would help to reduce (not prevent) incidents like this.  Think of all the places our society 'hardens' merely to protect property.  It is illogical that we accept the hardening of some places to protect property but are reluctant to harden schools to protect children.

A really well reasoned post, thanks for sharing.  

I guess my question regarding gun violence in other nations is, are mass shootings happening via a particular type of weapon like it is here or is it on a smaller scale but in a high frequency?

 Banning all weapons is not the answer but certainly restricting access to particular types of weapons may be part of the solution.

 

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40 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Enacting stricter gun control laws won't solve the problem because violence via guns isn't the problem - it's a symptom.

Any proposal for stricter gun control laws as solution needs to provide a reasoned and logical presentation why places that already have strict(er) gun control laws experience high levels of gun violence.  If strict gun control laws worked, then the places that had those laws would not experience the high levels of gun violence that now do occur.  One cannot deny the reality - high levels of gun violence occur where strict gun control laws are in place, and those laws do not prevent the violence.  And if we have clear evidence that strict gun controls don't prevent violence, how does one present a logical, reasoned, and unemotional case that they will even come close to having the intended effect?

Those laws don't prevent the violence because the people who murder, steal, harm others and otherwise don't care about breaking those laws clearly have no compunction about breaking laws regarding gun control.  Stricter gun control laws form no meaningful deterrent.

People who don't use guns to murder, injure, or steal from others refrain from that behavior because they have a respect for life and a respect for other people.  They don't refrain from that behavior because of gun control laws; they refrain from such behavior because of their inherent sense of right and wrong.

In the aftermath of these tragedies people clamor for 'a solution' or 'the solution'.  There is no one solution to avoiding or preventing school shootings.  Stricter gun control laws are certainly not that solution because the evidence of their failure to prevent violence is clear, so why pursue a path destined to fail?

One solution is to educate, raise, or convince more people to respect life and to respect others.  Bah! you say, easier said than done, impossible to measure, nearly as impossible to do.  Unfortunately our society is geared to the instant answer that can be purchased by a credit card from Amazon, or the instant answer received by posing the question to Siri.  All the same, I don't believe it can be denied that if anyone committing any sort of gun violence had a great respect for life - particularly the lives of others - that they would not be committing those crimes in the first place.

Such a change, though, requires a cultural shift away from an intense societal focus of self and self-validation to one more balanced between self and society.  That will take years, and probably decades.  In the mean time, certain effective, interim measures such as hardening schools would help to reduce (not prevent) incidents like this.  Think of all the places our society 'hardens' merely to protect property.  It is illogical that we accept the hardening of some places to protect property but are reluctant to harden schools to protect children.

On the other hand, countries with fewer guns and no legal assault rifles have fewer gun deaths.  Fact, not the myth that contributes so much to why we cant fix the problem.

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