Jump to content

Another senseless school shooting


Airehead

Recommended Posts

On 5/24/2022 at 5:59 PM, Road Runner said:

Unbelievable.  This crap almost never happened for most of my life.  And just as much access to guns.  I really wonder if the internet and violent video games aren't playing a huge part in this continuing insanity. 

When you were a child assault rifles weren't racked up on the walls of gun stores by the dozens.  Baseball bats were still the weapon of choice for gang fights.

  • Hugs 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Enacting stricter gun control laws won't solve the problem because violence via guns isn't the problem - it's a symptom.

Any proposal for stricter gun control laws as solution needs to provide a reasoned and logical presentation why places that already have strict(er) gun control laws experience high levels of gun violence.  If strict gun control laws worked, then the places that had those laws would not experience the high levels of gun violence that now do occur.  One cannot deny the reality - high levels of gun violence occur where strict gun control laws are in place, and those laws do not prevent the violence.  And if we have clear evidence that strict gun controls don't prevent violence, how does one present a logical, reasoned, and unemotional case that they will even come close to having the intended effect?

Those laws don't prevent the violence because the people who murder, steal, harm others and otherwise don't care about breaking those laws clearly have no compunction about breaking laws regarding gun control.  Stricter gun control laws form no meaningful deterrent.

People who don't use guns to murder, injure, or steal from others refrain from that behavior because they have a respect for life and a respect for other people.  They don't refrain from that behavior because of gun control laws; they refrain from such behavior because of their inherent sense of right and wrong.

In the aftermath of these tragedies people clamor for 'a solution' or 'the solution'.  There is no one solution to avoiding or preventing school shootings.  Stricter gun control laws are certainly not that solution because the evidence of their failure to prevent violence is clear, so why pursue a path destined to fail?

One solution is to educate, raise, or convince more people to respect life and to respect others.  Bah! you say, easier said than done, impossible to measure, nearly as impossible to do.  Unfortunately our society is geared to the instant answer that can be purchased by a credit card from Amazon, or the instant answer received by posing the question to Siri.  All the same, I don't believe it can be denied that if anyone committing any sort of gun violence had a great respect for life - particularly the lives of others - that they would not be committing those crimes in the first place.

Such a change, though, requires a cultural shift away from an intense societal focus of self and self-validation to one more balanced between self and society.  That will take years, and probably decades.  In the mean time, certain effective, interim measures such as hardening schools would help to reduce (not prevent) incidents like this.  Think of all the places our society 'hardens' merely to protect property.  It is illogical that we accept the hardening of some places to protect property but are reluctant to harden schools to protect children.

Agree 100%.  

 

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, dinneR said:

Thoughts and prayers just aren't working.

US school shootings:

 

Thurston High School.

Columbine High School. 

Heritage High School. 

Deming Middle School. 

Fort Gibson Middle School. 

Buell Elementary School. 

Lake Worth Middle School. 

University of Arkansas. 

Junipero Serra High School. 

Santana High School. 

Bishop Neumann High School. 

Pacific Lutheran University. 

Granite Hills High School. 

Lew Wallace High School. 

Martin Luther King, Jr. High School. 

Appalachian School of Law. 

Washington High School. 

Conception Abbey. 

Benjamin Tasker Middle School. 

University of Arizona. 

Lincoln High School. 

John McDonogh High School. 

Red Lion Area Junior High School. 

Case Western Reserve University. 

Rocori High School. 

Ballou High School. 

Randallstown High School. 

Bowen High School. 

Red Lake Senior High School. 

Harlan Community Academy High School. 

Campbell County High School. 

Milwee Middle School. 

Roseburg High School. 

Pine Middle School. 

Essex Elementary School. 

Duquesne University. 

Platte Canyon High School. 

Weston High School. 

West Nickel Mines School. 

Joplin Memorial Middle School. 

Henry Foss High School. 

Compton Centennial High School. 

Virginia Tech. 

Success Tech Academy. 

Miami Carol City Senior High School. 

Hamilton High School. 

Louisiana Technical College. 

Mitchell High School. 

E.O. Green Junior High School. 

Northern Illinois University. 

Lakota Middle School. 

Knoxville Central High School. 

Willoughby South High School. 

Henry Ford High School. 

University of Central Arkansas. 

Dillard High School. 

Dunbar High School. 

Hampton University. 

Harvard College. 

Larose-Cut Off Middle School. 

International Studies Academy. 

Skyline College. 

Discovery Middle School. 

University of Alabama. 

DeKalb School. 

Deer Creek Middle School. 

Ohio State University. 

Mumford High School. 

University of Texas. 

Kelly Elementary School. 

Marinette High School. 

Aurora Central High School. 

Millard South High School. 

Martinsville West Middle School. 

Worthing High School. 

Millard South High School.

Highlands Intermediate School. 

Cape Fear High School. 

Chardon High School. 

Episcopal School of Jacksonville. 

Oikos University. 

Hamilton High School. 

Perry Hall School. 

Normal Community High School. 

University of South Alabama. 

Banner Academy South. 

University of Southern California. 

Sandy Hook Elementary School. 

Apostolic Revival Center Christian School. 

Taft Union High School. 

Osborn High School. 

Stevens Institute of Business and Arts. 

Hazard Community and Technical College. 

Chicago State University. 

Lone Star College-North. 

Cesar Chavez High School. 

Price Middle School. 

University of Central Florida. 

New River Community College. 

Grambling State University. 

Massachusetts Institute of Technology. 

Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School. 

Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy. 

North Panola High School. 

Carver High School. 

Agape Christian Academy. 

Sparks Middle School. 

North Carolina A&T State University. 

Stephenson High School. 

Brashear High School. 

West Orange High School. 

Arapahoe High School. 

Edison High School. 

Liberty Technology Magnet High School. 

Hillhouse High School. 

Berrendo Middle School. 

Purdue University. 

South Carolina State University. 

Los Angeles Valley College. 

Charles F. Brush High School. 

University of Southern California. 

Georgia Regents University. 

Academy of Knowledge Preschool. 

Benjamin Banneker High School. 

D. H. Conley High School. 

East English Village Preparatory Academy. 

Paine College. 

Georgia Gwinnett College. 

John F. Kennedy High School. 

Seattle Pacific University. 

Reynolds High School. 

Indiana State University. 

Albemarle High School. 

Fern Creek Traditional High School. 

Langston Hughes High School. 

Marysville Pilchuck High School. 

Florida State University. 

Miami Carol City High School. 

Rogers State University. 

Rosemary Anderson High School. 

Wisconsin Lutheran High School. 

Frederick High School. 

Tenaya Middle School. 

Bethune-Cookman University. 

Pershing Elementary School. 

Wayne Community College. 

J.B. Martin Middle School. 

Southwestern Classical Academy. 

Savannah State University. 

Harrisburg High School. 

Umpqua Community College. 

Northern Arizona University. 

Texas Southern University. 

Tennessee State University. 

Winston-Salem State University. 

Mojave High School. 

Lawrence Central High School. 

Franklin High School. 

Muskegon Heights High School. 

Independence High School. 

Madison High School. 

Antigo High School. 

University of California-Los Angeles. 

Jeremiah Burke High School. 

Alpine High School. 

Townville Elementary School. 

Vigor High School. 

Linden McKinley STEM Academy. 

June Jordan High School for Equity. 

Union Middle School. 

Mueller Park Junior High School. 

West Liberty-Salem High School. 

University of Washington. 

King City High School. 

North Park Elementary School. 

North Lake College. 

Freeman High School. 

Mattoon High School. 

Rancho Tehama Elementary School. 

Aztec High School. 

Wake Forest University. 

Italy High School. 

NET Charter High School. 

Marshall County High School. 

Sal Castro Middle School. 

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School

Great Mills High School

Central Michigan University

Huffman High School

Frederick Douglass High School

Forest High School

Highland High School

Dixon High School

Santa Fe High School

Noblesville West Middle School

University of North Carolina Charlotte

STEM School Highlands Ranch

Edgewood High School

Palm Beach Central High School

Providence Career & Technical Academy

Fairley High School (school bus)

Canyon Springs High School

Dennis Intermediate School

Florida International University 

Central Elementary School

Cascade Middle School

Davidson High School

Prairie View A & M University 

Altascocita High School

Central Academy of Excellence

Cleveland High School

Robert E. Lee High School

Cheyenne South High School

Grambling State University

Blountsville Elementary School

Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)

Prescott High School

College of the Mainland

Wynbrooke Elementary School

UNC Charlotte

Riverview Florida (school bus)

Second Chance High School

Carman-Ainsworth High School

Williwaw Elementary School

Monroe Clark Middle School

Central Catholic High School

Jeanette High School

Eastern Hills High School

DeAnza High School

Ridgway High School

Reginald F. Lewis High School

Saugus High School

Pleasantville High School

Waukesha South High School

Oshkosh High School

Catholic Academy of New Haven

Bellaire High School

North Crowley High School

McAuliffe Elementary School 

South Oak Cliff High School

Texas A&M University-Commerce

Sonora High School

Western Illinois University

Oxford High School

Robb Elementary School

Add Washington Middle School and West Mesa High School to this list. Both are the location of a student shooting another student; WMS the shooter used his dad’s pistol (unsecured), and at WMHS the shooter used a “ghost gun,” parts of which had been 3-d printed and he purchased off the internet. Both happened this year. 

  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

E287175D-736F-4E35-A749-B1FBE731CF50.jpeg

I didn't know this.

Rather interesting....at a luncheon during a huge project that I was involved 3 years ago, my former boss was there. I'm not how the conversation caused her to mention that her father had quite a gun collection.  

5 other people at the table, said nothing. THis is the sort of response one would get....surprise, etc. But then in the workplace, one normally doesn't get into heated non-work topics.

The impression I get since living in prairie city, is in my area of Canada, that people are more receptive to owning guns. And they do. I've never lived anywhere else where gun supporters were as vocal as other places. Or at least people willing to talk about guns.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

A0ECB8CA-9D34-4DD3-84C6-D9F629FFCD95.webp

Gun control laws?  Sure, why not.  I just don't think that they will work.  I am a multiple gun owner.  None of them were hard to get.  I don't have anything fancy though, shot guns and pistols.  But I could walk into somewhere and do a hell of a lot of damage with them if I were so inclined.  But that thought has never once crossed my mind.  Limit sale of AR style weapons and you can do just as much damage with a hunting rifle.  Good luck trying to ban hunting rifles.  Not where I am from I can promise you that.

I really don't have an issue with a little more control over who can buy weapons and ammo.  I am certainly in favor of security at schools.  But I think honestly the way to fix this is to get some parents to pay attention to their damn kids.  Maybe an unpopular opinion, but it's mine right or wrong. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Any proposal for stricter gun control laws as solution needs to provide a reasoned and logical presentation why places that already have strict(er) gun control laws experience high levels of gun violence

Well I see you've read the NRA literature.

Places (in the US) that have stricter gun laws have those laws because they tend to  be MORE DANGEROUS AND VIOLENT TO BEGIN WITH.  Take away those stricter gun laws and watch the gun violence go even higher.  Not to mention you can cross an imaginary line on a map, buy a gun, bring it back to that dangerous place.  Or, with 400 million guns available for theft, just buy a stolen gun.  Or over the internet.  Or at a gun show.  No, it's not the stricter local gun laws making those poor inner city hell holes more violent..

Sorry, to completely reject changes to current gun laws is really short sighted.  Will it eliminate the problem?  Absolutely not.  but limiting the sheer number of guns will reduce the number of times guns are used to kill people.  Yes, we're WAY behind the 8 ball on this because we've spent WAY too many years saying new laws won't help.

The People who break laws will still break laws.  No kidding.  So when they want to attack innocent children, let's try to limit their access to high capacity rifles.  Let them break laws with something far less lethal.  Might as well do away with laws against carjacking, securities fraud, heck, all laws, cause, ya know, people are gonna do it anyway.

"Stricter gun control laws are certainly not that solution because the evidence of their failure to prevent violence is clear, "  Pulled that one out of the ether.  Sorry, there's evidence around the world of the exact opposite.  What about the MANY places similar to the US that have stricter NATIONAL gun laws?  Care to trot out that statistic?

"One solution is to educate, raise, or convince more people to respect life and to respect others"  OK, start by making it clear that our society will not tolerate making it so easy for 18 year old kids to buy a couple AR-15s and shoot up  2nd graders.  Show that we respect OTHERS enough that gee, maybe I have to do without high capacity magazines at the shooting range.  90% of our nation WANTS background checks, the gun lobby has bought 50 senators who won't allow it to happen.  What does that teach people?

Sure, there's cultural changes, additional security, Mental health care improvements. plenty of things we can do because we've let the situation get so far out of hand.  But to continue letting it get worse is just pure insanity.  We can't keep pretending the problem can't be addressed, we can't keep shifting the blame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I called Ted out for lack of data, I'd be remiss in not providing some

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

These stand out:

image.png.cc1e6ebba701f459f74e27320392ed5e.png   image.png.a98c9625217b4b39cd231cec3e964242.png

Out of the top 13 deadliest shootings since 1991, only one occurred while we had a national assault weapons ban, 2 occurred in states with Assault weapons bans at the time, 5 in texas and 2 in Florida - two of the least regulated states

 

image.png.49522d270a4c393cb0def6443f04c846.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Limit sale of AR style weapons and you can do just as much damage with a hunting rifle.  Good luck trying to ban hunting rifles.  Not where I am from I can promise you that.

Yes a 5.56 or 308 caliber hunting rifle can do just as much damage per shot but how many hunting rifles come with 30 round magazines? 

Having to stop & reload a hunting rifle after every 5th round will considerably slow the shooter down allowing for victims to flee or even fight back.  

Sorry but I  just don’t agree with this point.

  • Heart 2
  • Awesome 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, 12string said:

I called Ted out for lack of data, I'd be remiss in not providing some

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

These stand out:

image.png.cc1e6ebba701f459f74e27320392ed5e.png   image.png.a98c9625217b4b39cd231cec3e964242.png

Out of the top 13 deadliest shootings since 1991, only one occurred while we had a national assault weapons ban, 2 occurred in states with Assault weapons bans at the time, 5 in texas and 2 in Florida - two of the least regulated states

 

image.png.49522d270a4c393cb0def6443f04c846.png



States by gun ownership
https://www.statista.com/statistics/215655/number-of-registered-weapons-in-the-us-by-state/

Firearm mortality rate by state per capita
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

The states with the most guns have the most gun deaths.    Not sure how to get 300 million guns out of the hands of the public, but the more guns, the more gun deaths.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Here is one that surprised me.

States by gun ownership
https://www.statista.com/statistics/215655/number-of-registered-weapons-in-the-us-by-state/

Firearm mortality rate by state
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

 

I would expect the state with the most guns to be at the top of the list.  It is not.

Is the death rate a % of population or a raw number though?  I’d think the sheer number of people in CA, NY & other populous states might skew the data some. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Is the death rate a % of population or a raw number though?  I’d think the sheer number of people in CA, NY & other populous states might skew the data some. 

"The number of deaths per 100,000 total population."   They're always gonna do it per capita.  

  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, jsharr said:



States by gun ownership
https://www.statista.com/statistics/215655/number-of-registered-weapons-in-the-us-by-state/

Firearm mortality rate by state per capita
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

The states with the most guns have the most gun deaths.    Not sure how to get 300 million guns out of the hands of the public, but the more guns, the more gun deaths.

per capita, my state is last.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/gun-ownership-by-state

27785518-67e4828fec664d2f41d38366e8a8315

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Is the death rate a % of population or a raw number though?  I’d think the sheer number of people in CA, NY & other populous states might skew the data some. 

I took it as total deaths, not per capita, just to show more guns equals more death.  If you sort per capita, it does change it and Texas drops way down the list.  But total guns to total deaths the states align pretty close.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, jsharr said:

I took it as total deaths, not per capita, just to show more guns equals more death.  If you sort per capita, it does change it and Texas drops way down the list.  But total guns to total deaths the states align pretty close.

With my eyes the data is nearly impossible to read on my phone.  Thanks all for the clarification. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Parr8hed said:

I really don't have an issue with a little more control over who can buy weapons and ammo.  I am certainly in favor of security at schools.  But I think honestly the way to fix this is to get some parents to pay attention to their damn kids.  Maybe an unpopular opinion, but it's mine right or wrong. 

I was thinking that as the grandad said he had no idea the kid had bought two assault rifles.  People that old are not usually energetic and with it enough to deal with teenagers. :(

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Im hearing reports now that there was no school resource officer on duty as previously reported and the gunman walked in through an unlocked back door…. In other words a  soft target….

Just think how the person who propped the door open is going to feel, if they are still alive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, jsharr said:

The states with the most guns have the most gun deaths.    Not sure how to get 300 million guns out of the hands of the public, but the more guns, the more gun deaths.

The data also supports the greater the number of guns in a county, the greater the gun deaths. Only Yemen passes the US in gun deaths per population, and they have the second greatest number of guns in the world, after us.

I don’t think you need to get 30 million guns out of the hands of the US population, because the majority of gun owners are responsible.  Red Flag laws would selectively target those who show they aren’t due their behaviors. Target interventions on new gun sales, and gun transfer sales. Universal back ground checks on all these sales. Personally, I’d ban high capacity, semi-automatic rifle sales, as they are clearly the weapon of choice for mass killers. But if not put a permit process in place that requires some scrutiny of the buyer and justification for their need. 
 

There is currently more scrutiny placed on someone adopting a pet from a shelter, and a longer wait period, that buying two AR15s and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. That seems really off.

  • Heart 1
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

There is currently more scrutiny placed on someone adopting a pet from a shelter, and a longer wait period, that buying two AR15s and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. That seems really off.

Excellent point.  We need to put that in our pipe and smoke it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

The data also supports the greater the number of guns in a county, the greater the gun deaths. Only Yemen passes the US in gun deaths per population, and they have the second greatest number of guns in the world, after us.

I don’t think you need to get 30 million guns out of the hands of the US population, because the majority of gun owners are responsible.  Red Flag laws would selectively target those who show they aren’t due their behaviors. Target interventions on new gun sales, and gun transfer sales. Universal back ground checks on all these sales. Personally, I’d ban high capacity, semi-automatic rifle sales, as they are clearly the weapon of choice for mass killers. But if not put a permit process in place that requires some scrutiny of the buyer and justification for their need. 
 

There is currently more scrutiny placed on someone adopting a pet from a shelter, and a longer wait period, that buying two AR15s and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. That seems really off.

The problem here is that with 300 million guns and no control over private party transactions, you have no control at all.

I know I have told this story before, but when I bought the .22 rifle for the boys to shoot with me, we went to a gun show.  I handed the guy $100, he looked at my DL to make sure I was over 18 and then he handed me the gun with a zip tie to hold the bolt open.    

So someone that really wants a gun is going to get a gun and there will not be a single background check done.  I bought my pistol the same way, but from a friend.  Gave him cash, he gave me a pistol.   Nothing illegal occurred, but neither did any sort of background check on me.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Parr8hed said:

Gun control laws?  Sure, why not.  I just don't think that they will work.  I am a multiple gun owner.  None of them were hard to get.  I don't have anything fancy though, shot guns and pistols.  But I could walk into somewhere and do a hell of a lot of damage with them if I were so inclined.  But that thought has never once crossed my mind.  Limit sale of AR style weapons and you can do just as much damage with a hunting rifle.  Good luck trying to ban hunting rifles.  Not where I am from I can promise you that.

I really don't have an issue with a little more control over who can buy weapons and ammo.  I am certainly in favor of security at schools.  But I think honestly the way to fix this is to get some parents to pay attention to their damn kids.  Maybe an unpopular opinion, but it's mine right or wrong. 

The more that kids get killed the louder the conversation about it being something other than guns gets.

 

Again.  Countries with fewer guns have fewer gun deaths.

It's difficult to outshout that.

I have little problem with qualified people owning a breach loading shotgun or perhaps a bolt action hunting rifle.  But one per person is enough.  Hand guns and semiautomatic weapons .................... nope.  Mandatory life in prison for using one in a crime.  Lesser sentences for having one illegally.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Nothing illegal occurred, but neither did any sort of background check on me.

pretty much why 90% of the population wants changes.  That SHOULD be illegal.  Will it solve everything?  Of course not, but whatever can be done to lessen the problem eventually adds up.  Sadly, the little things being done lately have been making it EASIER, not harder.

BTW, there's 400 million guns now.  Numbers have gone up drastically recently as we're being told to be ascared of everybody that's not us now.  another societal change that needs to happen.  Of course, just today, the Senate tried to open debate on how to better address White supremecist violence (what HSA calls our biggest danger right now).  Nope, simply discussing it got shot down, on a party line vote.  So much for correcting the cultural problems that are part of the gun violence

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, jsharr said:

no control over private party transactions

So two people would be breaking the law if they sold guns without a background check or sold banned/restricted guns. So we enforce the laws. Make it a fairly draconian penalty to violate it.
 

A majority of gun owners are law-abiding citizens, why would they need to break the law if guns are still available for sale and can be sold, legally?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, 12string said:

So much for correcting the cultural problems that are part of the gun violence

Through my kitchen window, any ideological premise becomes a threat to the general welfare after it’s been armed and defended in a Federal court. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

So two people would be breaking the law if they sold guns without a background check or sold banned/restricted guns. So we enforce the laws. Make it a fairly draconian penalty to violate it.
 

A majority of gun owners are law-abiding citizens, why would they need to break the law if guns are still available for sale and can be sold, legally?

 

In CA you can’t sell guns private party without the involvement of a licensed gun dealer who will hold the money & weapon for the “cooling off period” which if I recall correctly is 2 weeks and also run the background check & complete all paperwork the then fire arm is properly transferred.

I haven’t purchased a firearm in 30+ years but CA does require a federal background check, cooling off period and purchase through a licensed dealer.  Now gun show sales are a little fuzzy to me but I think the same rules apply but I have heard there are some loopholes. 

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, 12string said:

Well I see you've read the NRA literature.

No, you don't, because I've never read anything by the NRA.  Not even their application for membership.

 

4 hours ago, 12string said:

Places (in the US) that have stricter gun laws have those laws because they tend to  be MORE DANGEROUS AND VIOLENT TO BEGIN WITH.  Take away those stricter gun laws and watch the gun violence go even higher. 

As you say, present the data that supports your assertion that taking the gun control laws away will yield the result of increase violence you claim.

And even if your claim is correct that places with strict gun laws have such laws because of high crime, it does not change the fact that those places still have high incidents of gun violence in spite of those laws.  If those laws actually worked, the violence would gradually decrease as those laws were applied to the point where gun violence would become rare. 

You requested data: Simply look at the city of Chicago, where each week up to dozens of people are victims of gun violence.  Victims that include small children.  There's no need for fancy charts or links to web sites; the gun violence that constantly occurs there is a reality from which strict gun laws provide no relief.  The assertion that such laws 'prevent' even greater violence is immaterial.  The strict laws that exist there are ignored by the criminals creating the violence.  Obviously, the reality is the violence has not abated with the laws in existence, therefor the logical conclusion must be those existing laws are ineffective.

 

4 hours ago, 12string said:

What about the MANY places similar to the US that have stricter NATIONAL gun laws?  Care to trot out that statistic?

Really, now, sarcasm and disrespect have no place is a rational and reasonable discussion.  You are letting your emotions master you, and you can do better.

Another example that needs no charts or links, because the reality is so well documented to be beyond question.  Mexico has strict gun laws, yet entire areas of that country are under the control of violent cartels.  Those cartels have wrestled control of those areas away from the government with... guns.  In spite of the strict national laws.  Again, those laws are ineffective because those committing the violence are ignoring the laws, and are not about to obey those laws.

The reason strict gun control laws don't work in either of these examples is, again, the people committing the violence don't care about the laws, and making more strict laws and making existing laws more strict won't change that situation.  The people breaking the laws and committing the violence don't care about and don't respect life.  If they did, they wouldn't be taking it.

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

No, you don't, because I've never read anything by the NRA.  Not even their application for membership.

 

As you say, present the data that supports your assertion that taking the gun control laws away will yield the result of increase violence you claim.

And even if your claim is correct that places with strict gun laws have such laws because of high crime, it does not change the fact that those places still have high incidents of gun violence in spite of those laws.  If those laws actually worked, the violence would gradually decrease as those laws were applied to the point where gun violence would become rare. 

You requested data: Simply look at the city of Chicago, where each week up to dozens of people are victims of gun violence.  Victims that include small children.  There's no need for fancy charts or links to web sites; the gun violence that constantly occurs there is a reality from which strict gun laws provide no relief.  The assertion that such laws 'prevent' even greater violence is immaterial.  The strict laws that exist there are ignored by the criminals creating the violence.  Obviously, the reality is the violence has not abated with the laws in existence, therefor the logical conclusion must be those existing laws are ineffective.

 

Really, now, sarcasm and disrespect have no place is a rational and reasonable discussion.  You are letting your emotions master you, and you can do better.

Another example that needs no charts or links, because the reality is so well documented to be beyond question.  Mexico has strict gun laws, yet entire areas of that country are under the control of violent cartels.  Those cartels have wrestled control of those areas away from the government with... guns.  In spite of the strict national laws.  Again, those laws are ineffective because those committing the violence are ignoring the laws, and are not about to obey those laws.

The reason strict gun control laws don't work in either of these examples is, again, the people committing the violence don't care about the laws, and making more strict laws and making existing laws more strict won't change that situation.  The people breaking the laws and committing the violence don't care about and don't respect life.  If they did, they wouldn't be taking it.

Texas just weakened their gun laws.  I'm not sure, but it seems that gun violence just got worse.  The criminals may not care, but this shooter wasn't a criminal till the actual event.  Of course you can claim that he was then a criminal.  Sort of a circular argument as are most of the memes about why we don't have too many guns. 

I have some very specific firearms laws that would help.  Mandatory life in prison for any crime committed with a fire arm.  20 years in jail for getting caught with an illegal firearm.  25 years in jail for selling an illegal firearm.  I believe that would have an effect...........even on criminals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Yes a 5.56 or 308 caliber hunting rifle can do just as much damage per shot but how many hunting rifles come with 30 round magazines? 

Having to stop & reload a hunting rifle after every 5th round will considerably slow the shooter down allowing for victims to flee or even fight back.  

Sorry but I  just don’t agree with this point.

Valid points.  But lots of places have legislation in place against 30 round mags, yet still being used.  Hunting rifles can be reloaded pretty dang quick with a little practice.  Or drop rifle and go to one of the 2-3 handguns you have on you with easily interchangeable and very legal 12 round mags.  

I understand what you are saying, and you are correct.  The point I was trying to make is that I feel like someone ill enough to kill than many innocent kids will just find a way.  Outlaw all weapons and they will use a pipe bomb.  They will run over them in a crosswalk.  They will find a way.  

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

The more that kids get killed the louder the conversation about it being something other than guns gets.

 

Again.  Countries with fewer guns have fewer gun deaths.

It's difficult to outshout that.

I have little problem with qualified people owning a breach loading shotgun or perhaps a bolt action hunting rifle.  But one per person is enough.  Hand guns and semiautomatic weapons .................... nope.  Mandatory life in prison for using one in a crime.  Lesser sentences for having one illegally.

Mandatory life in prison for using a gun in a crime actually sounds like a pretty decent idea to me.  I disagree with owning only one hunting rifle.  You would at least need a few different calibers for different game and different landscape.  But it's a decent point.  

Handguns I disagree with you completely.  I work in some shady areas at times.  I get there at 5:00.  We travel a lot, often late at night.  Maybe it is an illusion but I feel safer with a handgun.  You will not change my mind on that.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Part of the cultural change would be:  if you genuinely don't hunt wildlife, then it's strange to own guns with ammunition. Have 1-2 dogs loyal to your family to protect.

As far as protecting your assets...it's just assets. And that's what alot thieves are after.  

Really..and honest. That's what it is:  I would find it very strange for any of my relatives ad close friends who don't hunt, to own guns.

Then if one has a gun collection, no point having ammunition if you love the artistry/design of guns.

 

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Valid points.  But lots of places have legislation in place against 30 round mags, yet still being used.  Hunting rifles can be reloaded pretty dang quick with a little practice.  Or drop rifle and go to one of the 2-3 handguns you have on you with easily interchangeable and very legal 12 round mags.  

I understand what you are saying, and you are correct.  The point I was trying to make is that I feel like someone ill enough to kill than many innocent kids will just find a way.  Outlaw all weapons and they will use a pipe bomb.  They will run over them in a crosswalk.  They will find a way.  

This is the usual rhetoric used in place of common sense.  England completely changed their gun access laws in 1996 after the Dunblane massacre and today it is very difficult to obtain one, even illegally there.  The entry price for an illegal hand gun is on the high side of 4000 and climbing as they slowly disappear from availability.  Because of this mass shootings are almost impossible.  The concept that you can kill as fast or as often with a knife is just a convenient excuse for doing nothing.

The U.K. has a problem with radicalization, but not shootings. The difference lies in gun access. (nbcnews.com)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

This is the usual rhetoric used in place of common sense.  England completely changed their gun access laws in 1996 after the Dunblane massacre and today it is very difficult to obtain one, even illegally there.  The entry price for an illegal hand gun is on the high side of 4000 and climbing as they slowly disappear from availability.  Because of this mass shootings are almost impossible.  The concept that you can kill as fast or as often with a knife is just a convenient excuse for doing nothing.

The U.K. has a problem with radicalization, but not shootings. The difference lies in gun access. (nbcnews.com)

I understand what you're saying, but as long as there are bad people out there that want to do bad things then I will carry.  

I would give up guns in a heartbeat if everyone else did the same.  But I refuse to be the one that plays by the rules when bad people just ignore them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I understand what you're saying, but as long as there are bad people out there that want to do bad things then I will carry.  

I would give up guns in a heartbeat if everyone else did the same.  But I refuse to be the one that plays by the rules when bad people just ignore them. 

Probably the most successful "PR" done by the NRA and other pro-gun folks has been to create a massive sense of fear during the safest period of time in the history of mankind (and in one of the wealthiest and safest nations in the world).

Pretty amazing work, if you think about it.  

  • Heart 2
  • Awesome 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I understand what you're saying, but as long as there are bad people out there that want to do bad things then I will carry.  

I would give up guns in a heartbeat if everyone else did the same.  But I refuse to be the one that plays by the rules when bad people just ignore them. 

I refuse to be afraid of the "bad people"   I wouldn't want it to turn into England here and have constant murders of the good people every day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Probably the most successful "PR" done by the NRA and other pro-gun folks has been to create a massive sense of fear during the safest period of time in the history of mankind (and in one of the wealthiest and safest nations in the world).

Pretty amazing work, if you think about it.  

But it happens.  It is irresponsible not to be prepared.  This may be a safe time but that doesn't mean that bad things don't happen.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some info gleaned from the research:  Although the ages of the gunmen who are mass shooters varies, the median is 19. And exclusively male. Other key similarities are shooting a relative in another location first, announcing intent to commit a mass shooting beforehand, and communicating strong internalized anger in the months preceding. It seems like we could stop selling AR style weapons to 18 year olds. Require an FBI/ATF/local agency interview and waiting period for someone who wants to buy the ammo. Social media companies could expand their red flag departments; really watch for communication of intent the same way they watch for consumer habits. Require physical fitness (or some physical activity) every year in high school, and make anger intervention widely accessible. 

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

Some info gleaned from the research:  Although the ages of the gunmen who are mass shooters varies, the median is 19. And exclusively male. Other key similarities are shooting a relative in another location first, announcing intent to commit a mass shooting beforehand, and communicating strong internalized anger in the months preceding. It seems like we could stop selling AR style weapons to 18 year olds. Require an FBI/ATF/local agency interview and waiting period for someone who wants to buy the ammo. Social media companies could expand their red flag departments; really watch for communication of intent the same way they watch for consumer habits. Require physical fitness (or some physical activity) every year in high school, and make anger intervention widely accessible. 

I have zero issues with any of your proposals.  Seems to be pretty spot on.  

So what are we doing to these kids that are so young and feel like they need to shoot up a bunch of elementary school kids?  What is going on in their heads that they feel like this is acceptable?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

But it happens.  It is irresponsible not to be prepared.  This may be a safe time but that doesn't mean that bad things don't happen.  

It really doesn't, except the more you are made to think it does, the more it will.  :(  It's a horribly vicious cycle motivated by $$$ and political gain, but knowing that doesn't help getting out of a fear loop.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

So what are we doing to these kids that are so young and feel like they need to shoot up a bunch of elementary school kids?  What is going on in their heads that they feel like this is acceptable?

Scientific American research correlated domestic violence. 🥺

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Razors Edge said:

It really doesn't, except the more you are made to think it does, the more it will.  :(  It's a horribly vicious cycle motivated by $$$ and political gain, but knowing that doesn't help getting out of a fear loop.  

But it so does.  I have had people come up to my truck while I was sitting in a parking lot.  People break into people's houses.  While I do agree with you that bad things don't happen nearly as often as some people want us to believe, they DO happen.  

I try to see the good in the world.  I just choose to be prepared for when people are not good.  Hell, the damn topic of this thread is a school shooting.  Dennis pointed out about a million other school shootings.  How can you say that these things don't happen?

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

But it happens.  It is irresponsible not to be prepared.  This may be a safe time but that doesn't mean that bad things don't happen.  

Have you ever been in a situation where you were afraid for your life and your firearm came to your rescue?

Has your home ever been invaded?

Has your car ever been hijacked by evil doers?

The list is long, but the chances of it happening to you among the 3 1/2 million people in this country are so very small that the danger of giving up your guns is insignificant, especially if those evil people bent on your demise don't have them either.

This is the myth of fear propagated by those whose business is selling firearms.

Abject fear is a great marketing tool.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, maddmaxx said:

Have you ever been in a situation where you were afraid for your life and your firearm came to your rescue?

Has your home ever been invaded?

Has your car ever been hijacked by evil doers?

The list is long, but the chances of it happening to you among the 3 1/2 million people in this country are so very small that the danger of giving up your guns is insignificant, especially if those evil people bent on your demise don't have them either.

This is the myth of fear propagated by those whose business is selling firearms.

 

 

I told a story recently about how I was sitting in a downtown parking lot when two people working together came up to my truck with bad intentions.  Easily could have gone wrong and yes I had my hand on my handgun.  He saw that and left.  My house luckily has NOT been broken into but I do know people that have had their houses broken into.  Don't just pretend like these things just don't happen no matter how much you want to believe that they don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

This is the myth of fear propagated by those whose business is selling firearms.

Abject fear is a great marketing tool.

I don’t see carrying a firearm as a sign of abject fear. The opposite, really. It’s a near-universal sign of power. I wouldn’t fault anyone for wanting a sidearm. I don’t have one, don’t want one. 

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I told a story recently about how I was sitting in a downtown parking lot when two people working together came up to my truck with bad intentions.  Easily could have gone wrong and yes I had my hand on my handgun.  He saw that and left.  My house luckily has NOT been broken into but I do know people that have had their houses broken into.  Don't just pretend like these things just don't happen no matter how much you want to believe that they don't.

Fear is the mind killer.

It's also the primary reason that kids are still able to buy guns and kill.  Read the article I posted on England.  Fewer guns mean fewer gun deaths.  That's reality not what might happen.

I have to leave this thread now.  

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...