Odd holes in ceiling?

[ChrisL]

Any idea what would cause these?  It’s our upstairs master bath and there is nothing above the bathroom except a ceiling/rafters.   A few weeks ago we heard a loud popping noise and then discovered the first hole.  Just this morning we heard it again and now a second hole.

As structure is part of the HOA they are sending a structural engineer out but they can’t make it out until the 29th.  We called them on the second hole and they will try to come out sooner but are swamped.  

WOChrisL is afraid the house is going to collapse and wants to get the F out now.  I told her it’s likely fixable and no need to vacate.  

Any ideas what is causing these?

[Further]

Can you access the attic

[2Far ★]

Wow, weird.

They look like impacts. Can you get up there & look?

Does the left one come all the way through? I don't see any insulation??

[Razors Edge ★]

Normally I would say "settlement" but those are way worse than our cracks along the sheetrock tape/seams.  I'd definitely try to get a look on the other side, but it could be a joist that went rogue somehow?

You do have earthquakes so who knows what those do.

[Mr. Beanz]

Maybe the support fixture that is holding that vent assembly to the wall board. 

[ChrisL]

17 minutes ago, Further said:

Can you access the attic

Yes but the access point is about 50’ from the holes and I really don’t want to crawl around up there.

17 minutes ago, 2Far said:

Wow, weird.

They look like impacts. Can you get up there & look?

Does the left one come all the way through? I don't see any insulation??

Right? But I don’t know what would be impacting up there.  The second one that goes all the way through happened today after I left for work but you can see some insulation on the first. 

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, ChrisL said:

Yes but the access point is about 50’ from the holes and I really don’t want to crawl around up there.

Aren't you married????  Ask yourself, "What would @BR46 do?".

[ChrisL]

3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Aren't you married????  Ask yourself, "What would @BR46 do?".

WOChrisL tried and I told her I’m too F’ing old to be crawling around up there.  That and I’m not even sure what I’d be looking for….  

She didn’t like my answer but I stand behind it.  Since structure is covered by HOA let them send someone out to crawl around up there.  

[Mr. Beanz]

Look over from the entrance with a flashlight to see if there is some kind of mounting fixture up there.  You know like the roof ac units are in a cage type fixture. 

[2Far ★]

I guess I'd go outside & look to see if anything penetrated the roof. After all, it's Cali, it could be raining bullets, alien poop, or something really weird. Regardless, pretty good aim for separate events.

[Razors Edge ★]

11 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Right? But I don’t know what would be impacting up there.  The second one that goes all the way through happened today after I left for work but you can see some insulation on the first. 

So maybe a homeless couple moved in upstairs and got a little friskier than normal and opted for a breakfast time tryst? 

[ChrisL]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Beanz said:

Look over from the entrance with a flashlight to see if there is some kind of mounting fixture up there.  You know like the roof ac units are in a cage type fixture. 

Yeah I did do that but it’s too far away from the ceiling entry to see anything like that.  

[Razors Edge ★]

7 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Yeah I did do that but it’s too far away from the ceiling entry to see anything like that.  

Can your grandson crawl yet?  How about communicate what he might see up there?

[ChrisL]

8 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Can your grandson crawl yet?  How about communicate what he might see up there?

We are actually babysitting him tomorrow as his daycare is closed down.  Yeah no too young but maybe in a few years!  

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, ChrisL said:

 Yeah no too young but maybe in a few years!  

Those holes won't wait!!!!!

[ChrisL]

23 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

So maybe a homeless couple moved in upstairs and got a little friskier than normal and opted for a breakfast time tryst? 

We thought maybe a raccoon moved up there but we don’t ever hear any other noises up there that might indicate something was living up there. 

[donkpow]

[2Far ★]

9 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

We thought maybe a raccoon moved up there but we don’t ever hear any other noises up there that might indicate something was living up there. 

It'd be a big ass raccoon to break through the sheetrock like that.

[Longjohn ★]

20 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Those holes won't wait!!!!!

Yes they will.

[Longjohn ★]

21 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

We thought maybe a raccoon moved up there but we don’t ever hear any other noises up there that might indicate something was living up there. 

SLA

[maddmaxx ★]

I would stay the hell out of that room till it's inspected.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, maddmaxx said:

I would stay the hell out of that room till it's inspected.

It's a bathroom. If it was @jsharr's bathroom, this case would have been easy to solve, but with Chris??? Hard to know.

[12string]

I haven't started season 4 of Stranger Things yet, maybe that will explain it.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, 12string said:

I haven't started season 4 of Stranger Things yet, maybe that will explain it.

Just blame El.

[Road Runner]

1 hour ago, ChrisL said:

Odd holes in ceiling?

I see two.  If it was one or three, it would be odd.  

[12string]

Just now, Road Runner said:

I see two.  If it was one or three, it would be odd.  

There's 3, but one was obviously caused by the installation of a ceiling fan

[petitepedal ★]

it is not a good thing...

I will say a rafter hanger thingy has malfunctioned . My non educated guess

[Prophet Zacharia]

3 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Any ideas what is causing these?

 

[maddmaxx ★]

I think any engineer would agree with petite about the rafter hanger thingie.

[MickinMD ★]

Since a popping noise preceded the formation of each hole, my guess is something came loose and parts of it fell two times.

The scary thing about some popping noises is that they're caused by electrical shorts, but they wouldn't cause holes like that.

The vent should be removable from beneath the ceiling.  If there are clips that hold the cover in place, you may be able to unscrew and move the vent and look, but it could be a tricky operation.

[Square Wheels]

You will die.

You need to get into the attic.  DO NOT step in between the joists, you will fall through.

[Wilbur ★]

3 hours ago, ChrisL said:

That and I’m not even sure what I’d be looking for….  

Don't worry, it will find you.   My guess is a critter heavy enough to break the gypsum. 

[team scooter]

 

[Square Wheels]

Poke a broom stick up the hole, all the way up.  Otherwise, it's likely you'll never find the hole through the insulation. 

[12string]

You're gonna be patching anyway, open  a square between two joists.  Then you can see what's up there.  Or whatever's up there will have room to get out and kill you and it won't have to keep poking holes.

[Longjohn ★]

2 hours ago, petitepedal said:

it is not a good thing...

I will say a rafter hanger thingy has malfunctioned . My non educated guess

That’s the technical answer.

[Further]

When you do crawl up there, take a gun...

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

5 hours ago, Road Runner said:

I see two.  If it was one or three, it would be odd.  

I would suggest marking this as the solution.

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Beanz said:

Look over from the entrance with a flashlight to see if there is some kind of mounting fixture up there. 

A bike headlight would work well for this.  Make a lot a noise opening the scuttle hatch so you don't find yourself face to face with a surprised and angry wild animal.  Even if you can't see all the way over to the holes, you can scan around the area you can see and look for animal signs or look at the roof structure for anything that's out of place.

3 hours ago, MickinMD said:

The vent should be removable from beneath the ceiling. 

This might be possible.  If the vent box is mounted on rails that nail into the neighboring trusses you might not be able to remove it from below.  You might be able to pull down the recessed light fixture, move aside the insulation, and use a mirror to look about.

2 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

Poke a broom stick up the hole, all the way up.  Otherwise, it's likely you'll never find the hole through the insulation. 

This is a very good idea, especially if you're looking across the attic from the scuttle hole.  Once you see the broom handle you can check the neighboring trusses to see if they look different than the other ones.

 

7 hours ago, ChrisL said:

WOChrisL is afraid the house is going to collapse

Roof trusses are designed with significant safety factors.  If one has cracked or split, the tension or pressure has relieved to the point where the truss can now handle what load is left and the neighboring trusses have picked up the load the first truss shed, They are probably loaded past their original design point, but not past the safety factors.  A collapse would be caused by a series of cascading failures, meaning many trusses were loaded past their ultimate load points.  Not impossible but extremely unlikely.  That may not be entirely comforting, but that's the reality of it.  I would suggest if you hear more popping and/or see more holes it would be wise to leave.

The popping noise indicates to me that something was under tension or compression and let go.  The first hole appears to have a straight lines (black lines) that looks like it follows a sheetrock joint, which means it's likely under a truss:

The hole seems to protrude more from the ceiling along the direction of the arrow, as evidenced by the cracks on either side getting larger and longer as you move in the direction of arrow.

For this hole I'm going to guess the truss runs in the direction of the cracks, and would suggest that a splice plate in truss has come loose under tension, and the ends of the lumber have come apart with one end bowing down to create the crack and hole.  I've exaggerated in the picture below it illustrate the point:

The bottom chord is typically under tension, so for it to fail in a compression manner would be unusual.  It might be possible the splice let go and the downward force from a web pushed the chord through the ceiling.

The second hole is a bit more difficult to pose a cause.  It appears to be almost circular from the picture.  One would expect that whatever made the hole would remain visible in the hole afterwards.  My best guess on this one is a web or splice on a nearby truss failed and the web punched the hole, and when the tension was relieved the truss and web returned to a more normal position.  I would suggest looking in and around that hole to see if you can find what made it.

There is one last possibility I'm reluctant to suggest...  It may be remotely possible that someone has accessed the attic spaces between the units (assuming they share a common roof) by cutting a hole through the firewalls, and may be looking to access the different residences through the scuttle hatches.  If you poke your head up in the attic space and see insulation that's been compressed in some areas but not others - especially along a path, and especially near the holes - then this might be a possibility.  If you're concerned that this might be the case, then screw a piece of plywood across the hatch or secure it from the inside so it can't be lifted.

That's a whole boatload of conjecture based upon one photo of a couple holes (or three holes, depending on your view ) so I would also suggest I could be all wet on all of this.  Those are my best guesses, and being free advice those guesses are worth every bit of what they cost. 

 

 

[Wilbur ★]

Does building code allow common access attics?  Yikes, that creeps me out.  I have heard of cases where people use such access to break the ceiling for access to commit theft. 

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

50 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Does building code allow common access attics?

Generally individual residences/units like condos and town homes are separated by required rated firewall so a fire in one residence does not spread to neighboring units, or at least it's slowed enough to give firefighters a chance to put out the fire before it spreads.  But not all rated firewall are made of cinder blocks or poured concrete.

This is an example of a two hour rated firewall, made of sheetrock, steel studs, and insulation.  It will hold back a fire but not someone with a sheetrock knife or keyhole saw.

 

The local building codes determine how the rated walls should be constructed and what those ratings would be.  One municipality might require a two hour wall in some places, other a four hour wall.  Codes usually represent the minimum required, but a governing body can elect to exceed the minimums.

[petitepedal ★]

1 hour ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

I would suggest marking this as the solution.

 

A bike headlight would work well for this.  Make a lot a noise opening the scuttle hatch so you don't find yourself face to face with a surprised and angry wild animal.  Even if you can't see all the way over to the holes, you can scan around the area you can see and look for animal signs or look at the roof structure for anything that's out of place.

This might be possible.  If the vent box is mounted on rails that nail into the neighboring trusses you might not be able to remove it from below.  You might be able to pull down the recessed light fixture, move aside the insulation, and use a mirror to look about.

This is a very good idea, especially if you're looking across the attic from the scuttle hole.  Once you see the broom handle you can check the neighboring trusses to see if they look different than the other ones.

 

Roof trusses are designed with significant safety factors.  If one has cracked or split, the tension or pressure has relieved to the point where the truss can now handle what load is left and the neighboring trusses have picked up the load the first truss shed, They are probably loaded past their original design point, but not past the safety factors.  A collapse would be caused by a series of cascading failures, meaning many trusses were loaded past their ultimate load points.  Not impossible but extremely unlikely.  That may not be entirely comforting, but that's the reality of it.  I would suggest if you hear more popping and/or see more holes it would be wise to leave.

The popping noise indicates to me that something was under tension or compression and let go.  The first hole appears to have a straight lines (black lines) that looks like it follows a sheetrock joint, which means it's likely under a truss:

The hole seems to protrude more from the ceiling along the direction of the arrow, as evidenced by the cracks on either side getting larger and longer as you move in the direction of arrow.

For this hole I'm going to guess the truss runs in the direction of the cracks, and would suggest that a splice plate in truss has come loose under tension, and the ends of the lumber have come apart with one end bowing down to create the crack and hole.  I've exaggerated in the picture below it illustrate the point:

The bottom chord is typically under tension, so for it to fail in a compression manner would be unusual.  It might be possible the splice let go and the downward force from a web pushed the chord through the ceiling.

The second hole is a bit more difficult to pose a cause.  It appears to be almost circular from the picture.  One would expect that whatever made the hole would remain visible in the hole afterwards.  My best guess on this one is a web or splice on a nearby truss failed and the web punched the hole, and when the tension was relieved the truss and web returned to a more normal position.  I would suggest looking in and around that hole to see if you can find what made it.

There is one last possibility I'm reluctant to suggest...  It may be remotely possible that someone has accessed the attic spaces between the units (assuming they share a common roof) by cutting a hole through the firewalls, and may be looking to access the different residences through the scuttle hatches.  If you poke your head up in the attic space and see insulation that's been compressed in some areas but not others - especially along a path, and especially near the holes - then this might be a possibility.  If you're concerned that this might be the case, then screw a piece of plywood across the hatch or secure it from the inside so it can't be lifted.

That's a whole boatload of conjecture based upon one photo of a couple holes (or three holes, depending on your view ) so I would also suggest I could be all wet on all of this.  Those are my best guesses, and being free advice those guesses are worth every bit of what they cost. 

 

 

In other words....I guessed correctly  

[Scrapr ★]

I would sleep on the bottom floor tonight  (just to be safe)

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

11 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Any ideas what is causing these?

After a bit of thought, there's another possibility, albeit remote - but it's creepy and you won't like it.

Pull down the fan trim cover.  It should be held in place by a couple of springs.  Squeeze the springs together and remove the trim.

Inside you should see a plate with a fan and motor on it.  It's usually held in place by two tabs and one or two screws.  Take out the screws and put them in a plastic baggy or tupperware container so they are harder to lose.  Lower the fan/motor plate.

Look in the fan back box to see if there's a mini-camera in there.  If there is, I'd suggest not touching it and calling the police right away.  If there isn't, then check the backdraft damper for damage.  It should be in the fan outlet and move easily.  If it's not there or it doesn't swing open/close freely, it may have been tampered with.

Finally check that the exhaust duct is securely attached to the backdraft damper housing (red circle).  If it's disconnected or loose, it may have been tampered with.

I apologize that my cynicism would lead to something this disturbing, but the round-like shape of the second hole - and that whatever made it wasn't hanging through the ceiling - led to the possibility it was made by the tip or heel of a shoe.  The fact that the two holes were made a few weeks apart, and very close to the bathroom vent fan, could be indicative of someone placing and retrieving a camera. 

If someone were doing this you'd think after punching the first hole they'd not place a camera with the risk of being caught.  However, criminals can be stupid, and if this is indeed what's going on I would wager this isn't the first offense.

In any case, I would certainly recommend that someone go over to the area and see if the insulation around the fan is crushed, or if there's other signs that someone has been up there.

[maddmaxx ★]

This thread is going to require follow up.

[Prophet Zacharia]

4 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

After a bit of thought, there's another possibility, albeit remote - but it's creepy and you won't like it.

Now I am glad I live thousands of miles from Chris.

[Tizeye]

Was a HVAC repairman crawling around in the attic? Those look like shoe pressure on the ceiling drywall when kneeling on ceiling joist to repair/clean ductwork.

also could be someone installing stealth spy cameras. Seen any pinholes in ceiling for lens or something hidden within the vent covers?

[Square Wheels]

I wish I lived closer, I'd love to come help.

[Digital_photog ★]

To me those look like someone was up there and did the damage.  The one looks like a shoe hole that punched through and the other looks like the person stepped on the edge seam of the drywall.  In normal installation the edge seam would go across the trusses.  End seams which are weaker would be on the truss.  Is there access to the attic from anywhere other than your unit?

[Square Wheels]

I think there's a lot of assumption there are trusses.  If there are, and they are failing, this is a big mess.

If there are not, a ceiling joint is not likely to "fail".

[Kzoo]

21 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

I wish I lived closer, I'd love to come help.

Bring your gun.