I think it is time for MoseySusan to forgive us

[Road Runner]

We aren't bad people.  We are just flawed beings, like all of mankind.  We don't always agree or do or say the right thing, but we are all good people at heart who mean no harm. 

We are family.  I miss my sister, @MoseySusan.   

[Further]

Why is she absent 

[Wilbur ★]

How long has she been MIA?  

Was it misongyny related? 

[Road Runner]

2 minutes ago, Further said:

Why is she absent 

I think she got upset about a thread someone posted.  

[Wilbur ★]

4 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

I think she got upset about a thread someone posted.  

Was it me?  I try not to be too confrontational.   

[Road Runner]

2 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Was it me?  I try not to be too confrontational.   

No.  You are like Arnold.  You have strong views but you know how to control yourself!  Everybody loves Arnold.  

[shootingstar]

This is what I mean being a male-dominant forum:  guys tend to joke alot more, more saracastic at each other.

I observed much of this during coffee breaks, etc. with engineers. The women engineers who I met, are by nature, very smart, knew how to throw back. 

I worked in the engineering sector for almost 15 yrs. where women were a minority and at the beginning they did have strike through misogynistic attitudes.  In CAnada being a P.Eng..means passing through enough hoops, so female engineers are themselves strong and smart individuals.

Maybe Mosey just wants to use her time better. It would be nice to visit us even for half an hr. a few times /wk. 

[Kirby]

I understand people need to take a break, or even leave, sometimes.  But I care about the people here and it makes me sad when they go away.  I hope @MoseySusan comes back if only for a quick visit and lets us know how things are going.

[jsharr ★]

I am pretty sure it was a thread I started.  
Once I realized it offended her I asked for it to be deleted and I asked for her forgiveness but she has not been back since her reply in that thread as far as I know

[Road Runner]

My favorite Sue avatar.

 

[Dottleshead ★]

4 hours ago, shootingstar said:

This is what I mean being a male-dominant forum:  guys tend to joke alot more, more saracastic at each other.

I observed much of this during coffee breaks, etc. with engineers. The women engineers who I met, are by nature, very smart, knew how to throw back. 

I worked in the engineering sector for almost 15 yrs. where women were a minority and at the beginning they did have strike through misogynistic attitudes.  In CAnada being a P.Eng..means passing through enough hoops, so female engineers are themselves strong and smart individuals.

Maybe Mosey just wants to use her time better. It would be nice to visit us even for half an hr. a few times /wk. 

The first thing you gotta know is the 3 of the 4 top math students at my university were female.  Second, the computer doesn't care whether you have a penis or vagina.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

Forgive...  Us?

I'm not much one for playing the 'collective blame game', particularly where I've given no offense.

Should this be a case where offense was taken, then it becomes a matter between the specific individuals involved. 

Once resolved, then any apologies due should be rendered in the manner in which the offense was given.  If the offense was given in the 'general public' arena of the Cafe, then any apology needed should be offered there as well.

[Wilbur ★]

14 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Forgive...  Us?

I'm not much one for playing the 'collective blame game', particularly where I've given no offense.

Should this be a case where offense was taken, then it becomes a matter between the specific individuals involved. 

Once resolved, then any apologies due should be rendered in the manner in which the offense was given.  If the offense was given in the 'general public' arena of the Cafe, then any apology needed should be offered there as well.

Or push past the political divides and stop looking for anything that insults us.  Pronouns for instance.  I will use them if one insists but they will be preceded by a few of my own.  

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

As regarding engineering, male-dominance, and sarcasm, my experience being in the engineering field for over 40 years is there are fewer fields where a person's outward appearance or sex matter so little.  It's a person's talent, intelligence, ability to reason, and character that matter most among engineering peers in terms of the respect given others.  As with any segment of a population, there are always exceptions - but that's what they are - exceptions and not the norm.

Anyone who wishes the status of a professional engineer (or P. Eng. as you will) has to 'jump through hoops' to earn the position.  The various governmental agencies establish the minimum requirements for experience, for taking tests to demonstrate that experience, and for the continuing education to maintain that level of licensing.  Have all the 'buddies' you want, but if you can't pass the tests and you don't meet the standards, your 'buddies' do you no good.

I will not deny that emotions can play a part in how engineers interact with each other and with the public, but for the main part the proof of an engineer is in the work he (or she, it seems necessary to say) produces for the customer and for the public.  The better engineers intuitively recognize the worth of the fellow engineer and that engineer's contributions, as there are little means to deny the logic of a proper solution, and even fewer negatives that can be offered for a truly elegant one.

Understandably, others' experiences will be different, and I make clear I do not doubt those experiences nor do I pass judgment.  I offer my experiences above as another insight regarding the profession of engineering.

[Ralphie ★]

11 hours ago, jsharr said:

I am pretty sure it was a thread I started.  
Once I realized it offended her I asked for it to be deleted and I asked for her forgiveness but she has not been back since her reply in that thread as far as I know

I had a similar experience back on the LF.  I unknowingly hit a hot button.  It was a poster I really liked so I felt bad.  You never know how someone is going to take something. Thankfully for some you can guess better than for others. 

[shootingstar]

48 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

 

I will not deny that emotions can play a part in how engineers interact with each other and with the public, but for the main part the proof of an engineer is in the work he (or she, it seems necessary to say) produces for the customer and for the public.  The better engineers intuitively recognize the worth of the fellow engineer and that engineer's contributions, as there are little means to deny the logic of a proper solution, and even fewer negatives that can be offered for a truly elegant one.

Understandably, others' experiences will be different, and I make clear I do not doubt those experiences nor do I pass judgment.  I offer my experiences above as another insight regarding the profession of engineering.

I was speaking as someone who has worked in male-dominant organizations..where my client group plus management ....were male. Several employers, Thad. This includes the legal sector where firm partners at the time I worked..were primarily male. This includes firefighters and fire chiefs, along with engineers in fire protection engineering community  as part of my clientele for 9 yrs.

YOu don't need to justify to me nor explain ...when several extended family members are engineers. And dearie was an engineer, who had the integrity to take off his iron ring when he became an manager for non-engineering matters. (It puzzled him enough why those who never practiced engineering when they became managers, insisted on still wearing an iron ring and pay engineering annual membership fees.  He saw it as a strange ego trip.)

Anyway, getting back on topic:   more of an observation when socializing with folks on the job, particularily in group situations. I had to get used to some of kiddin' and fun insults the guys threw at each other.  

****This forum IS a different feel than the all women's cycling international forum. When I left LF, that's where I went for a few years. The other forum had over 50 active members with many others hanging around the edges.  I can say, if a woman started being snarky / do fun insults, she probably would be ignored after awhile.

My comments are more about social group style at a personal level amongst male dominant vs. female dominant groups.  I don't recall much fun insults women at each other. And no we didn't get into political stuff. We would get into some extended conversations about bikes, health, attitudes, life changes, etc. (yep, among some guy cyclists.  The ones that don't like getting passed by a woman cyclist, etc.) Several women worked in bike shops, etc. 

I think women who bike alot /have several bikes / know technically enough about bikes / cycling is a daily lifestyle..tend to be more pragmatic. I like that. To me, that's the running common thread. My little world perspective.

[shootingstar]

8 hours ago, Dottles said:

The first thing you gotta know is the 3 of the 4 top math students at my university were female.  Second, the computer doesn't care whether you have a penis or vagina.

Dottles, there is a difference at times (not all the time) in conversation tenor / hijinks among male dominant and female dominant groups on the Internet. Of course I haven't hung around a reddit group or other groups ....not worth my time actually.

[shootingstar]

The closest all female group where I would get mocked, insulted occasionally or confronted....would be  with my sisters.  They would laugh their heads off if one was full of puffery, etc.  I come from a family that is more direct in communication.  Maybe that's why I sometimes I seem try to hold my ground on certain matters.

 

[Ralphie ★]

3 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

The closest all female group where I would get mocked, insulted occasionally or confronted....would be  with my sisters.  They would laugh their heads off if one was full of puffery, etc.  I come from a family that is more direct in communication.  Maybe that's why I sometimes I seem try to hold my ground on certain matters.

 

I’m not a fan of the “insult humor” practiced by many men.  It gets overbearing quickly to me and can lead to hard feelings (hurt feelers in kazoo language.  ). Gentle ribbing is far enough!

[shootingstar]

12 minutes ago, Philander Seabury said:

I’m not a fan of the “insult humor” practiced by many men.  It gets overbearing quickly to me and can lead to hard feelings (hurt feelers in kazoo language.  ). Gentle ribbing is far enough!

Thank you, this is what I meant Philander.  The only reason why I seem to hang in here...is my family background, pretty direct with each other...which clears the air faster but might take longer to heal.  I attribute it to ..my mother, she yelled at us. My father tried to moderate.  

I have learned the hard way on the job, that some people who I've worked with on jobs....really, wow so sensitive. I can only attribute to how they were raised/their family background.

I perceive Mosey ...actually as tough and kind, with strong set of principles. You have to be when her career was a high school teacher. Teenagers are alot more kickass these days.

[Zealot]

@shootingstar, I’ve been trying to figure you out for a while now and honestly I am perplexed. You often compare male vs female styles of communication, management, interactions. Often (and certainly I may simply be misunderstanding), I get the impression that your commentary is often denigrating ‘male dominated’ formats. Is this the case?

My personal experience has included male dominated, female dominated and trans groups. Yes, there are differences in interaction styles. Some positive, some negative. But all are honestly complimentary; necessary for balance.

[shootingstar]

19 minutes ago, Zealot said:

@shootingstar, I’ve been trying to figure you out for a while now and honestly I am perplexed. You often compare male vs female styles of communication, management, interactions. Often (and certainly I may simply be misunderstanding), I get the impression that your commentary is often denigrating ‘male dominated’ formats. Is this the case?

My personal experience has included male dominated, female dominated and trans groups. Yes, there are differences in interaction styles. Some positive, some negative. But all are honestly complimentary; necessary for balance.

The opposite can be true, all female work groups sometimes just needs male participants trained in same profession.  It was more noticeable during first 2 decades of my career.  

It can be different type of competiveness...which I currently get from a colleague out of 7.  The person doesn't tell you ...they just go off and ignore your ideas...very rude and not facing issues in my opinion, on how to collaborate more effectively. (It's a she.)  It's being passive-aggressive and wanting to be in complete control.  I noticed it again between her and another colleague, another she. So my boss, a she, had to intervene.  

Philander expressed it well.

[Zealot]

6 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

The opposite can be true, all female work groups sometimes just needs male participants trained in same profession.  It was more noticeable during first 2 decades of my career.  

It can be different type of competiveness...which I currently get from a colleague out of 7.  The person doesn't tell you ...they just go off and ignore your ideas...very rude and not facing issues in my opinion, on how to collaborate more effectively. (It's a she.)  It's being passive-aggressive and wanting to be in complete control.  I noticed it again between her and another colleague, another she. So my boss, a she, had to intervene.  

Philander expressed it well.

Still confused. Are you saying you prefer female situations? Or male?

[shootingstar]

8 minutes ago, Zealot said:

Still confused. Are you saying you prefer female situations? Or male?

It's probably safer not to engage in much mock /fun insult at someone, especially one doesn't know them well at all. I realize it takes away fun edge ...for some folks.  I've never been very good at it myself or not for an extended period of time.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

1 hour ago, shootingstar said:

YOu don't need to justify to me nor explain

I wasn't, and I didn't.

[MickinMD ★]

@MoseySusan and @Dirtyhip added much of interest and enjoyed reading and discussions.  I hope to see their return.

[groupw]

I sent @MoseySusan a text to let her know we miss her. She replied there are good people here. I will follow up with her, but she may just need time and space. This isn’t the first time she’s taken a break. 

[shootingstar]

3 hours ago, MickinMD said:

@MoseySusan and @Dirtyhip added much of interest and enjoyed reading and discussions.  I hope to see their return.

And Pageturner.  He's probably nurturing a magnificent garden and orchard.

[Wilbur ★]

43 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

And Pageturner.  He's probably nurturing a magnificent garden and orchard.

Hardly a peacekeeper. 

[shootingstar]

19 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Hardly a peacekeeper. 

That is merely your perception. I'm sure there were enough folks here whom he never had a combative word with them at all. In fact, helpful and informative.

 

[Wilbur ★]

42 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

That is merely your perception. I'm sure there were enough folks here whom he never had a combative word with them at all. In fact, helpful and informative.

 

Wrong!  There are several here who know it.  Go to P&R in Bike Forums and do some reading.  One thread will prove my point. 

Has it ever occurred to you that it is your perception that is wrong? 

[shootingstar]

17 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Wrong!  There are several here who know it.  Go to P&R in Bike Forums and do some reading.  One thread will prove my point. 

Has it ever occurred to you that it is your perception that is wrong? 

But I'm not a participant in Bike forums. And don't want to spend time in outer space. I go by behaviour in this forum. There's a different mix of people here that's not on bike forums.

I can't plant myself in every social group to gauge how people show different facets of themselves. I have a life outside of SQW and more than ever, time is precious.

However there are some core areas:  How do they treat...me on regular basis and is it generally consistent with their treatment of others on this forum? And if not, there may be bunch of valid reasons. All speculative since I've barely met anyone from SQW.   And then everything else stems from there.

What's so bad about Pageturner and how much better are you, Wilbur?  YOu don't need to answer because it's a crazy question since none of us are saints.

Note:  I did have dinner with Mosey in NM so long ago.

 

[Wilbur ★]

27 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

But I'm not a participant in Bike forums. And don't want to spend time in outer space. I go by behaviour in this forum.

You ought to be.  It is cyclings bastion of far left politics.  Late, Caretaker Page and Onbike are all there.  You would be the only female voice though.  

[Zealot]

5 hours ago, MickinMD said:

@MoseySusan and @Dirtyhip added much of interest and enjoyed reading and discussions.  I hope to see their return.

Much agreement!

[Dirtyhip]

5 hours ago, MickinMD said:

@MoseySusan and @Dirtyhip added much of interest and enjoyed reading and discussions.  I hope to see their return.

I like you too Mick. I think of you when doing chemistry things.

[shootingstar]

34 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

You ought to be.  It is cyclings bastion of far left politics.  Late, Caretaker Page and Onbike are all there.  You would be the only female voice though.  

Far left is communist which I never will be. So that's why pageturner is so unruly to you....because he's vaguely left..or was?  

I miss his botanical/horticulture stories/explorations. I never met a former firefighter in real life, spouting Buddhist aphorisms.

I did meet enough firefighters and fire chiefs in 1 of my jobs. I once delivered presentation to 100+ fire chiefs and some deputies. Yea, they were all white and male. This is just fact/reality that happened in Gravenhurst Ontario. There was 1 other woman there...she was one of our staff, a fire safety inspector.

 

[groupw]

Wilbur likes to put a political twist on almost everything. I just take it with a grain of salt. Grin and nod. 

[ChrisL]

16 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

I like you too Mick. I think of you when doing chemistry things.

Hey thanks for checking in!  Good to see you here and hope you & K are well. 

[Mr. Beanz]

There are some people that when absent,  make SW forums fun. 

I hope Mosey returns. 

[Wilbur ★]

25 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

So that's why pageturner is so unruly to you....because he's vaguely left..or was?  

Don't downplay what you don't know and are unwilling to learn.  He is unruly because he is an asshole.   

[shootingstar]

5 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Don't downplay what you don't know and are unwilling to learn.  He is unruly because he is an asshole.   

I sincerely don't know Wilbur. I'm not constantly on the forum here.  I have done stuff in real life, in volunteer work, where the effort with other people, to educate/inform public, is serious effort. 

 

[Kirby]

44 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

I like you too Mick. I think of you when doing chemistry things.

[Dirtyhip]

52 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Hey thanks for checking in!  Good to see you here and hope you & K are well. 

Thanks, Chris.  We are well and having much fun.  Paddleboarding and biking as much as we can.  

[Longjohn ★]

7 minutes ago, Dirtyhip said:

Thanks, Chris.  We are well and having much fun.  Paddleboarding and biking as much as we can.  

How are your trees doing this year?

[Dirtyhip]

40 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

How are your trees doing this year?

We have lost one.  Surprisingly, we had a really wet Spring. Still behind on water but holding hope for this winter.

[Kirby]

Glad you stopped by @Dirtyhip   I was wondering how your summer was going and how things were at the house.