Too Much Tire?

[Razors Edge ★]

From a recent post on the Rene Herse site by Jan Heine, where he rides a 400km brevet on paved roads with wide (54mm) tires and low PSI.   He's a big "wider is better" and "supple is better" guy, so I always read him with a grain of salt, but it does, to some extent, show that wider and lower PSI is not a huge win or loss.  It remains the engine for the most part, but fit and comfort help a bunch too.

“That’s too much tire for that route,” is something I’ve heard many times, usually from gravel racers who are preparing a relatively smooth ride, like next weekend’s SBT GRVL in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. The old belief that the narrowest tire that can (barely) handle the terrain will be fastest doesn’t seem to be going away, despite much data that shows wide tires rolling as fast as narrow ones. 

I can understand that. There is data showing all kinds of things—even that higher tire pressures roll much faster. What really matters is how this plays out in the real world. In other words, any testing needs to be confirmed on the road.

...

Knowing my form this year and the course, I’m very happy with my time. The wide tires didn’t slow me down in any noticeable way. In fact, the ride went better than I expected. Perhaps those narrow handlebars helped on this windy day… Rather than worry about ‘too much tire’ for an event, maybe we should think about ‘too much handlebar’!

A few afterthoughts:

• Will I ride all brevets on 54 mm tires from now on? Unlikely. While the cantis on the Oregon Outback bike work really well now that the pads are completely bedded, I do prefer centerpull brakes. Their linear, powerful and smooth braking is on another level—something I appreciate on twisty descents with tight hairpins where I like to brake deep into the turns. Why not make centerpulls for 54 mm tires (and fenders)? Making brake arms that large would add a lot of weight—and look clumsy. If I was running discs, my decision would be less clear-cut. In that case, I might run Rat Trap Pass tires all the time.
• This also points to the reason why some riders will prefer narrower tires and/or higher pressures: They may not roll faster, but they change the feel of the bike. Depending on your pedal stroke (and your frame’s flex characteristics), a harder tire may feel better and allow you to put out more power.
• Tire pressure: At 1.8 bar (26 psi), the wide tires felt a little bouncy at first. This didn’t slow me down, but if I were to sprint for city limit signs, I’d run the ‘firm’ pressure recommended by the Rene Herse Tire Pressure Calculator: 2.2 bar (32 psi). The bike would be just as fast, but it would feel more like a road bike.
• This road test alone doesn’t prove anything—it’s just anecdotal evidence. However, it confirms what we’ve found in carefully controlled tests. That said, it is possible that wider tires a very slightly slower (or faster). If that is the case, then the difference is too small to be noticeable on the road. Other factors (like handlebar width) are more important.
• Had the course included any rough stretches, the wide tires would have been faster. Even a few miles of gravel are enough to make a large difference, as I found out during the 3 Volcano 300 km Brevet two weeks ago. 
• Strava says that I stopped 45 minutes during the 16 hours on the bike, but that includes every stop sign (of which there were only very few), photo stop, pee break, etc. ‘Real’ stops were just three: At km 100 to buy some supplies, at km 190 (top of the pass), and at km 280 (buy supplies, eat ice cream, drink). It’s still amazing to me how comfortable these bikes are: We can ride all day without needing (or even wanting) to stop.
• After two brevets in a short time, I’m looking forward to more leisurely rides. Maybe attach the low-rider racks to the bike, pack two panniers, and head to the mountains for a short camping trip?

[TrentonMakes]

I wonder how much my tires affect my speed.  I run the original spec for this bike (32mm tires), at around 100psi.  Even then I feel the bumps.  But I suspect they are one of the main reasons my wheels remain perfectly true after upwards of 4,000 miles, despite carrying my 250-lb weight around.

Maybe this is like the endless debate about capacitors affecting a guitar's sound.  Some people insist it has a huge effect while others say it's negligible.

[ChrisL]

Well um….. I’m the guy who rides 36 MM tires at 40 PSI on the road (on a steel frame).  Am I slower because of them?  Maybe or maybe it’s the engine…. I’m not racing anyone and I do like the ride feel of the larger volume tires at lower PSI so I’ll stick with them.  

But that’s me, ride what makes YOU happy.

[Longjohn ★]

My fancy gravel bike with 40 mm tires is considerably slower than my not fancy 520 touring bike with 32 mm slicks on pavement. On gravel they are about the same but much more comfortable riding my gravel bike on gravel.

[ChrisL]

8 minutes ago, TrentonMakes said:

I wonder how much my tires affect my speed.  I run the original spec for this bike (32mm tires), at around 100psi.  Even then I feel the bumps.  But I suspect they are one of the main reasons my wheels remain perfectly true after upwards of 4,000 miles, despite carrying my 250-lb weight around.

Maybe this is like the endless debate about capacitors affecting a guitar's sound.  Some people insist it has a huge effect while others say it's negligible.

 

4 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

My fancy gravel bike with 40 mm tires is considerably slower than my not fancy 520 touring bike with 32 mm slicks on pavement. On gravel they are about the same but much more comfortable riding my gravel bike on gravel.

I was going to answer Trenton but I think the same point applies to both.  I think it’s more about tire choice more so than width.  I mean that sounds like a no brainer but things like  Knobby or file tread, thread count, protective casings & such.  Just like how a 23 mm racing tire vs a 23 mm hard case tire are going to feel & roll differently the same applies to gravel tires.

I ride the Challenge Strada Bianca’s which are a file treaded tire. A bit under gripped for loose gravel but still roll nicely on the road.  They are also light for their size and are supple.  I also had good luck with the Maxxis Refuse tire which has similar characteristics.

[Razors Edge ★]

6 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

 

I was going to answer Trenton but I think the same point applies to both.  I think it’s more about tire choice more so than width.  I mean that sounds like a no brainer but things like  Knobby or file tread, thread count, protective casings & such.  Just like how a 23 mm racing tire vs a 23 mm hard case tire are going to feel & roll differently the same applies to gravel tires.

I ride the Challenge Strada Bianca’s which are a file treaded tire. A bit under gripped for loose gravel but still roll nicely on the road.  They are also light for their size and are supple.  I also had good luck with the Maxxis Refuse tire which has similar characteristics.

Yep - I think he was running the Rat Traps - so super slick - vs the same size but knobby Humptulips.  I'd expect there to be a difference in many respects between those two - mostly because of the tread and not the size.

 

[Zephyr]

I run 32s on my commuter bike and 25s on my road bike.  I just like the harder feel on the road bike.

[Longjohn ★]

My back gravel tire has turned into a slick. I wonder how many miles before it starts showing cords? Maybe I should think about some new taars? I have a back up bike so probably not necessary unless I have a big gravel ride coming up. Nothing like that planned at this time although I am subscribed to the Pirates channel.

[ChrisL]

50 minutes ago, Longjohn said:

My back gravel tire has turned into a slick. I wonder how many miles before it starts showing cords? Maybe I should think about some new taars? I have a back up bike so probably not necessary unless I have a big gravel ride coming up. Nothing like that planned at this time although I am subscribed to the Pirates channel.

I’m having technical difficulties with my new iPhone (I have the YouTube app and can’t seem to copy & paste videos like I could off the browser). Anyway Cycling Tips put out a video today called Field Test, How much tire do you really need.  It’s a good watch and may answer some of your questions.

 

[groupw]

I have 25s on my road bike because that’s the biggest that fit. My Bridgestone I ride as a gravel bike. 26x1.95 Kenda K-Rad tires at 32-35 psi. The higher pressure is because I get very little gravel right now. 30-32 is still fine on all but washboard gravel. It’s quite comfortable. 

[Razors Edge ★]

53 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I’m having technical difficulties with my new iPhone (I have the YouTube app and can’t seem to copy & paste videos like I could off the browser). Anyway Cycling Tips put out a video today called Field Test, How much tire do you really need.  It’s a good watch and may answer some of your questions.

 

 

[Bikeguy]

I used to use 23 on my road bike.  Now I use 25 because that's probably all I can get in width between the rear frame and chain stays.

For nearly 20 years now every first Sunday in October, I ride the Pumpkin Pie Ride here.  Most of my road bike is titanium, except for the lower 2/3s of the seat stays, and the fork.  A few weeks before one of the rides the bonding separated between the titanium and the carbon seat stay.   (the bike was repaired under warranty)

I got to ride the 66 mile route on my mountain bike and it's 26 X 1.90 knobby tires.  It wasn't too bad of a ride.  Sure it would have been quicker on my road bike, but it was even more fun when I passed people on their fancy road bikes.  

[Longjohn ★]

I rode a polar bear ride on a New Years Day one time that was so cold almost no one showed up. I rode with a little guy who was wearing blue jeans and a puffy jacket riding on old rusty mountain bike that he kept behind his garage. There is no traffic in the morning on January first so we rode side by side and talked the whole ride. When I mentioned I ride the MS150 he told me he did too. I thought to myself he was just blowing smoke, he had to be a noob the way he was dressed and the bike he was riding. He was stuck in one gear the whole ride because his shifters were froze up. When we finished the ride he said maybe I’ll see you at the MS150 this year. I thought yeah right. Sure enough as I was pedaling up Cochranton hill he pulled up along side me on a plastic bike wearing full kit. We talked a bit and then he pedaled on up the hill. 

[dinneR ★]

I like big tires and I cannot lie....

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