Minimum wage

[dinneR ★]

Full story

Yikes, $5.15 is embarrassing. The local Target is starting people at $24/hr. I don't think any local business pays less than $15/hr

Wyoming’s minimum wage is $5.15 an hour, tied with Georgia for the national low, according to the study. This means the state defaults to the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour — last adjusted in 2009.

This quote doesn't make sense to me. Pay people shit so others can benefit? 

Aadland explained that low earners are critical to providing amenities that draw companies and people to the area and create economic growth.

“Low-income workers are going to be key to making sure restaurants are open seven days a week, same with retail,” Aadland said. “They’re critically important in terms of keeping companies here [and] keeping the vast majority of workers here.”

[jsharr ★]

Texas is the same.  7.25 per hour.

Companies have to  pay much more than that to get anyone to apply.   My youngest son has never worked for a hourly wage before and just got first job, started at $15.00 and will go to $16.00 once he completes all his training at Discount Tire.  And he gets tips for doing air checks.  Usually $50 - 75 per week.  Oldest son is with Discount as well and he makes $18.50 I believe after less than 6 months with them.  

 

 

 

[Razors Edge ★]

Without folks making minimum wage, we'd all be broke! It's a fact of science. 

[jsharr ★]

I make less than minimum wage posting here.  

[Digital_photog ★]

You won't find anyone paying minimum wage here.  Fast food and retail start from $15 to $18.  Everything else more.  No one will apply for less.

1 minute ago, jsharr said:

make less than minimum wage posting here.  

you are still paid too much.

[ChrisL]

21 minutes ago, dinneR said:

Full story

Yikes, $5.15 is embarrassing. The local Target is starting people at $24/hr. I don't think any local business pays less than $15/hr

Wyoming’s minimum wage is $5.15 an hour, tied with Georgia for the national low, according to the study. This means the state defaults to the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour — last adjusted in 2009.

This quote doesn't make sense to me. Pay people shit so others can benefit? 

Aadland explained that low earners are critical to providing amenities that draw companies and people to the area and create economic growth.

“Low-income workers are going to be key to making sure restaurants are open seven days a week, same with retail,” Aadland said. “They’re critically important in terms of keeping companies here [and] keeping the vast majority of workers here.”

It seems JH needs a living wage ordinance like many cities in LA have enacted.  Minimum wage is $15 but many cities have ordinances requiring employers to pay $18-$20.

I guess I’m good with that but damn my Del Taco burritos are getting expensive…

[dinneR ★]

33 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

It seems JH needs a living wage ordinance like many cities in LA have enacted.  Minimum wage is $15 but many cities have ordinances requiring employers to pay $18-$20.

I guess I’m good with that but damn my Del Taco burritos are getting expensive…

JH essentially has it's own unwritten min wage. Our local paper has 10-12 pages of want ads. You can't hire unless you offer a competitive wage. The rest of the state needs to get on board. 

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

8 minutes ago, dinneR said:

The rest of the state needs to get on board.

Why?

It appears JH is setting the example for the rest of the state, and no legislative action is needed.  Let the market set the minimum wage everywhere in the state. 

It's a good example of how capitalism works.

[jsharr ★]

54 minutes ago, Digital_photog said:

 

you are still paid too much.

nominated! 

and I agree with you.

[shootingstar]

By now, this would confirm money-grubbers that CAnada is an evil socialist country:

If I have to pay abit more for restaurant food, that's my problem, not the restaurant's.  AFter all, I could choose to prep food at home.

Current minimum wage across Canada

Province	Minimum Hourly Wage	Notes
Alberta	$15.00	Effective as of October 1, 2018. View more information.
British Columbia	$15.65	Effective as of June 1, 2022. View more information.
Manitoba	$11.95	Based on Manitoba’s Consumer Price Index for 2021, the minimum wage will increase on October 1, 2022 from $11.95 per hour to $12.35 per hour. View more information.
New Brunswick	$12.75	Effective as of April 1, 2022. The minimum wage in NB will rise to $13.75 in October 1, 2022. View more information.
Newfoundland & Labrador	$13.20	Effective April 1, 2022. View more information.
Northwest Territories	$15.20	Effective as of September 1, 2021. NWT’s minimum wage is reviewed by committee every two years. View more information.
Nova Scotia	$13.35	Effective as of April 1, 2022. Nova Scotia is in the midst of a five step plan to bring the wage to $15.00 by April 1, 2024. Beginning April 1, 2025, the minimum wage rate will be adjusted with inflation plus an additional 1% annually. View more information and report from Minimum Wage Review Committee.
Nunavut	$16.00	Effective as of April 1, 2020. The minimum wage in NU is reviewed annually on April 1. View more information.
Ontario	$15.00	Effective as of January 1, 2022. The general minimum wage in Ontario will rise to $15.50 on October 1, 2022. View more information.
Prince Edward Island	$13.70	Effective as of April 1, 2022. View more information.
Quebec	$14.25	Effective as of May 1, 2022. View more information (in French).
Saskatchewan	$11.81	The government has announced that on October 1, 2022, the minimum wage will increase from $11.81 to $13.00 per hour. On October 1, 2023, minimum wage will increase to $14 per hour and on October 1, 2024, it will increase to $15 per hour. View more information.
Yukon	$15.70	Effective as of April 1, 2022. The minimum wage is adjusted on April 1 of each year relative to the Consumer Price Index. View more information.

 

[Airehead]

That is not a living wage. For some to need to work for it so others prosper is just wrong. 

[Square Wheels]

1 hour ago, dinneR said:

The local Target is starting people at $24/hr.

My field is embarrassing.  After a four-year degree and likely 100k in loans you start at $27 in a big city like Boston.  Other places pay less.

[dinneR ★]

9 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Why?

It appears JH is setting the example for the rest of the state, and no legislative action is needed.  Let the market set the minimum wage everywhere in the state. 

It's a good example of how capitalism works.

it's this that I have a problem with. The idea that we need some people to make less so that the rest of us can have cheap stuff.

“Low-income workers are going to be key to making sure restaurants are open seven days a week, same with retail,” Aadland said. “They’re critically important in terms of keeping companies here [and] keeping the vast majority of workers here.”

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, dinneR said:

it's this that I have a problem with. The idea that we need some people to make less so that the rest of us can have cheap stuff.

“Low-income workers are going to be key to making sure restaurants are open seven days a week, same with retail,” Aadland said. “They’re critically important in terms of keeping companies here [and] keeping the vast majority of workers here.”

Too late! Solved!

[Wilbur ★]

14 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

By now, this would confirm money-grubbers that CAnada is an evil socialist country:

If I have to pay abit more for restaurant food, that's my problem, not the restaurant's.  AFter all, I could choose to prep food at home.

Current minimum wage across Canada

Province	Minimum Hourly Wage	Notes
Alberta	$15.00	Effective as of October 1, 2018. View more information.
British Columbia	$15.65	Effective as of June 1, 2022. View more information.
Manitoba	$11.95	Based on Manitoba’s Consumer Price Index for 2021, the minimum wage will increase on October 1, 2022 from $11.95 per hour to $12.35 per hour. View more information.
New Brunswick	$12.75	Effective as of April 1, 2022. The minimum wage in NB will rise to $13.75 in October 1, 2022. View more information.
Newfoundland & Labrador	$13.20	Effective April 1, 2022. View more information.
Northwest Territories	$15.20	Effective as of September 1, 2021. NWT’s minimum wage is reviewed by committee every two years. View more information.
Nova Scotia	$13.35	Effective as of April 1, 2022. Nova Scotia is in the midst of a five step plan to bring the wage to $15.00 by April 1, 2024. Beginning April 1, 2025, the minimum wage rate will be adjusted with inflation plus an additional 1% annually. View more information and report from Minimum Wage Review Committee.
Nunavut	$16.00	Effective as of April 1, 2020. The minimum wage in NU is reviewed annually on April 1. View more information.
Ontario	$15.00	Effective as of January 1, 2022. The general minimum wage in Ontario will rise to $15.50 on October 1, 2022. View more information.
Prince Edward Island	$13.70	Effective as of April 1, 2022. View more information.
Quebec	$14.25	Effective as of May 1, 2022. View more information (in French).
Saskatchewan	$11.81	The government has announced that on October 1, 2022, the minimum wage will increase from $11.81 to $13.00 per hour. On October 1, 2023, minimum wage will increase to $14 per hour and on October 1, 2024, it will increase to $15 per hour. View more information.
Yukon	$15.70	Effective as of April 1, 2022. The minimum wage is adjusted on April 1 of each year relative to the Consumer Price Index. View more information.

 

It is the nihilist socialists that are degrading the country, not the $15/ hr burger flippers. 

[maddmaxx ★]

 As a country, we are already too rich.  You can't build something up without tearing something down in a world of limited resources.  To support the poor and those who don't make enough, a ceiling will have to be placed on earnings............call it the maximum wage.

Guillotines have been built in the past for this.

I don't think this is going to go over so well after a bit of consideration.  You folks talking about 500,000 and up houses who have 6 figure incomes are the beneficiaries.  

Think about that.

[Razors Edge ★]

2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Guillotines have been built in the past for this.

Now you sound like a nihilist, too!

[Mr. Beanz]

Here in Los Angeles County,  it's $16.01.

[shootingstar]

19 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

It is the nihilist socialists that are degrading the country, not the $15/ hr burger flippers. 

I don't get what you just said and just see this spinning off into an endless debate....of really, very different ways of solving major problems and seeing the world.  (Does this relate to all the covid restrictions in past 2 yrs.?  Was that pitching us into nihilist chasm?  How silly to even think of our broader community and their health for national economic survival. Heavy sarcasm here.)

Profit margins in restaurant industry are already tight. At the same time, I think some of those businesses know how to prepare food, promote it and serve it. But not very good on managing finances for a small biz. Too many cowboys running the show.

I saw this  when dearie had to ask his son-biz owner to lay off staff because the financial models were showing as not sustainable. His son was too busy with operations and needed more objective expertise.  The layoffs happened at least once per yr. or every 2 yrs.  

Alot of restaurants don't have the financial expertise or want to hire that expertise for financial forecasting to make very hard choices. 

 

[Wilbur ★]

1 hour ago, shootingstar said:

I don't get what you just said and just see this spinning off into an endless debate....of really, very different ways of solving major problems and seeing the world.  (Does this relate to all the covid restrictions in past 2 yrs.?  Was that pitching us into nihilist chasm?  How silly to even think of our broader community and their health for national economic survival. Heavy sarcasm here.)

Profit margins in restaurant industry are already tight. At the same time, I think some of those businesses know how to prepare food, promote it and serve it. But not very good on managing finances for a small biz. Too many cowboys running the show.

I saw this  when dearie had to ask his son-biz owner to lay off staff because the financial models were showing as not sustainable. His son was too busy with operations and needed more objective expertise.  The layoffs happened at least once per yr. or every 2 yrs.  

Alot of restaurants don't have the financial expertise or want to hire that expertise for financial forecasting to make very hard choices. 

 

Having owned 7 restaurants and pubs, all but one very successful, you needn't attempt to educate me on what works and what doesn't.  The food service industry is full of dreamers but it is shy of implementers.  The margins on food have always been slim.  It had little to do with minimum wage workers.  Those salaries are just costed into your $40 hamburger. 

[shootingstar]

11 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Having owned 7 restaurants and pubs, all but one very successful, you needn't attempt to educate me on what works and what doesn't.  The food service industry is full of dreamers but it is shy of implementers.  The margins on food have always been slim.  It had little to do with minimum wage workers.  Those costs are just costed into your $40 hamburger. 

So the chart of legislated min. wages across the country is not your beef?  

As a restaurant customer, I will pay what the menu dictates, I just expect the food to be properly and safely prepared. After all, the customer chooses to step into the restaurant to order.  They don't have to drop by.

A number of family restaurants of course, are squeaking by, where some family members aren't paid at all.

I know...everyone wants freedom to run their own business with the least amount of govn't requirements...this includes permits, periodic inspections.. 

 

[12string]

1 hour ago, dinneR said:

it's this that I have a problem with. The idea that we need some people to make less so that the rest of us can have cheap stuff.

“Low-income workers are going to be key to making sure restaurants are open seven days a week, same with retail,” Aadland said. “They’re critically important in terms of keeping companies here [and] keeping the vast majority of workers here.”

I see this as one of the benefits from COVID, but it comes with a downside.  But in summary, a major benefit.  My wife and I discussed during COVID how we might not have as many dinners out anymore, because of this

Restaurant workers were given a glimpse of how little they earned for very hard work.  Restaurants re-opened, workers said "not at that wage".

So, a LOT of quite poor people suddenly were earning an almost livable wage.  To pay for that, what I pay for a dinner out increased.  I can manage that, they couldn't manage to live on what they were making.  A good trade off.   

It's not just restaurants, we're seeing it everywhere.  People realizing they didn't have to be taken advantage of so stockholders could make more.  Guess what that means?   Inflation.

Statistics show that income increases for low wage earners ahs outpaced inflation.  Those of us who are doing OK are paying more so some people can lift out of poverty.  Hard to see this as a negative, overall.

We've enjoyed cheap stuff by taking advantage of the poor for too long

It will settle out over time.  We may even learn to buy less stuff, at higher prices, and people in 3rd world countries get to eat. Another win.

 

 

[Razors Edge ★]

10 minutes ago, 12string said:

I see this as one of the benefits from COVID, but it comes with a downside.  But in summary, a major benefit.  My wife and I discussed during COVID how we might not have as many dinners out anymore, because of this

Restaurant workers were given a glimpse of how little they earned for very hard work.  Restaurants re-opened, workers said "not at that wage".

So, a LOT of quite poor people suddenly were earning an almost livable wage.  To pay for that, what I pay for a dinner out increased.  I can manage that, they couldn't manage to live on what they were making.  A good trade off.   

It's not just restaurants, we're seeing it everywhere.  People realizing they didn't have to be taken advantage of so stockholders could make more.  Guess what that means?   Inflation.

Statistics show that income increases for low wage earners ahs outpaced inflation.  Those of us who are doing OK are paying more so some people can lift out of poverty.  Hard to see this as a negative, overall.

We've enjoyed cheap stuff by taking advantage of the poor for too long

It will settle out over time.  We may even learn to buy less stuff, at higher prices, and people in 3rd world countries get to eat. Another win.

To some extent, this all falls disproportionately on small business in the US like restaurants, hotels, and bricks & mortar shops. Why? Because they can't easily outsource, and have to have actual humans doing the work.  There is a progression still, though, to "fix" that problem by inventing and implementing new technologies.  Grocery stores with their self-checkout, Amazon with their test stores where you don't even check-out, or Domino's with drone pizza delivery.  There will be more restaurants implementing "smart tables" where you sit down, hit a few buttons, and the order is taken straight to the kitchen - which means waitstaff (already exempt from higher minimum wage positions) is unnecessary especially if you sort out a delivery system like a conveyer belt or robot  .  Just need the cooking staff and the cleaning staff.  Hotels - with their gazillions of cleaning staff - have seen that they CAN make do with 75% of the old staff, but not 50%, so when given the chance, the 75% staffing will be the norm, not the past 100% level.  And how will farming evolve? Stress from climate change and worker shortages will be offset by technology for sure, but some crops are ridiculously hard to automate for harvesting, so that will either require greater tech advances or a willingness to move to poorer countries farming those items for us.  Outsourcing isn't always as easy as being able to compete instead through low wages.    

[12string]

2 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

To some extent, this all falls disproportionately on small business in the US like restaurants, hotels, and bricks & mortar shops. Why? Because they can't easily outsource, and have to have actual humans doing the work.  There is a progression still, though, to "fix" that problem by inventing and implementing new technologies.  Grocery stores with their self-checkout, Amazon with their test stores where you don't even check-out, or Domino's with drone pizza delivery.  There will be more restaurants implementing "smart tables" where you sit down, hit a few buttons, and the order is taken straight to the kitchen - which means waitstaff (already exempt from higher minimum wage positions) is unnecessary especially if you sort out a delivery system like a conveyer belt or robot  .  Just need the cooking staff and the cleaning staff.  Hotels - with their gazillions of cleaning staff - have seen that they CAN make do with 75% of the old staff, but not 50%, so when given the chance, the 75% staffing will be the norm, not the past 100% level.  And how will farming evolve? Stress from climate change and worker shortages will be offset by technology for sure, but some crops are ridiculously hard to automate for harvesting, so that will either require greater tech advances or a willingness to move to poorer countries farming those items for us.  Outsourcing isn't always as easy as being able to compete instead through low wages.    

I do think we're at the cusp of a drastic societal change (at least in the US)

We already have more available workers than jobs.  And if we truly DO learn to be less of a throwaway society, realize we don't need a TV in every room, that will take care of some of that imbalance.  But tech WILL have to do some of the menial work.

I used to avoid the self checkouts, I didn't want to help eliminate jobs so somebody could spend less or enrich stockholders.  Now I use them regularly, as staffing in retail is overworked.

[maddmaxx ★]

39 minutes ago, 12string said:

I see this as one of the benefits from COVID, but it comes with a downside.  But in summary, a major benefit.  My wife and I discussed during COVID how we might not have as many dinners out anymore, because of this

Restaurant workers were given a glimpse of how little they earned for very hard work.  Restaurants re-opened, workers said "not at that wage".

So, a LOT of quite poor people suddenly were earning an almost livable wage.  To pay for that, what I pay for a dinner out increased.  I can manage that, they couldn't manage to live on what they were making.  A good trade off.   

It's not just restaurants, we're seeing it everywhere.  People realizing they didn't have to be taken advantage of so stockholders could make more.  Guess what that means?   Inflation.

Statistics show that income increases for low wage earners ahs outpaced inflation.  Those of us who are doing OK are paying more so some people can lift out of poverty.  Hard to see this as a negative, overall.

We've enjoyed cheap stuff by taking advantage of the poor for too long

It will settle out over time.  We may even learn to buy less stuff, at higher prices, and people in 3rd world countries get to eat. Another win.

 

 

Inflation will drive many on fixed incomes into poverty.  It's nice that you are doing well, but don't assume that all are.  I have friends now who simply can't afford to go to restaurants.  That number continues to grow.  The economy is starting to turn around for those who have.  For the rest it's beginning to look pretty shitty.  Minimum wage seems to leave the retired poor behind.

[maddmaxx ★]

18 minutes ago, 12string said:

I do think we're at the cusp of a drastic societal change (at least in the US)

We already have more available workers than jobs.  And if we truly DO learn to be less of a throwaway society, realize we don't need a TV in every room, that will take care of some of that imbalance.  But tech WILL have to do some of the menial work.

I used to avoid the self checkouts, I didn't want to help eliminate jobs so somebody could spend less or enrich stockholders.  Now I use them regularly, as staffing in retail is overworked.

We are indeed at the cusp of a drastic societal change.  Those who don't have will be left behind.  We have moved into an economy where electric bills have doubled.  Food bills have gone up by 10's of percents.  Medication...........ha don't go there.  There is a class of society that soon will have to chose between food/rent and medicine.

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

There is a class of society that soon will have to chose between food/rent and medicine.

We've had a large portion of folks doing that my whole life.  

[12string]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

We've had a large portion of folks doing that my whole life.  

this ^^^^^

@maddmaxxgot a lot right, but what he missed is that for the poorest - those making the $5.15, wages have risen FASTER than inflation .  That's actually one of the inflation drivers.

yes, there's a segment in between those low wage earners and the middle class that has to suffer the burden of only going to Olive Garden twice a week that are truly getting pushed down.  But, the shift underway is a (finally!) closing of the insane wealth gap.  In the long term, they will be better off.

Electric bills have doubled, partly driven by another seismic shift.  When the shift is done, electricity will be free, from the government subsidized solar panels.

As for choosing between medicine and food - that's not an inflation problem, that's a problem that every other civilized nation has easily solved and we don't have the will to solve.

 

We REALLY are on the cusp of something huge right now.  The '30's sucked.  After that, we had a golden age.

[maddmaxx ★]

58 minutes ago, 12string said:

this ^^^^^

@maddmaxxgot a lot right, but what he missed is that for the poorest - those making the $5.15, wages have risen FASTER than inflation .  That's actually one of the inflation drivers.

yes, there's a segment in between those low wage earners and the middle class that has to suffer the burden of only going to Olive Garden twice a week that are truly getting pushed down.  But, the shift underway is a (finally!) closing of the insane wealth gap.  In the long term, they will be better off.

Electric bills have doubled, partly driven by another seismic shift.  When the shift is done, electricity will be free, from the government subsidized solar panels.

As for choosing between medicine and food - that's not an inflation problem, that's a problem that every other civilized nation has easily solved and we don't have the will to solve.

 

We REALLY are on the cusp of something huge right now.  The '30's sucked.  After that, we had a golden age.

Will be.  Might me.  Could be.  I'll be long gone before any of this fantasy of what could be comes to pass.

You have it right.  We don't have the will to solve the problem.   So in the end it won't be solved and more band aids will be necessary till we run out.

 

Snark like only being able to go to Olive Garden twice a week may help.

[12string]

32 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I'll be long gone before any of this fantasy of what could be comes to pass

yeah, it's going to take a while.  And somebody could come along and make it worse again.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

Just now, 12string said:

yeah, it's going to take a while.  And somebody could come along and make it worse again.

 

Could?  Ha.  It makes no difference which group of extremists is in charge.

[Wilbur ★]

1 hour ago, 12string said:

We REALLY are on the cusp of something huge right now.

Many things.  China is poised to attack the US.  Russia is a threat, supply chain problems, massive inflation, mass immigration, energy problems, foes developing nuclear weapons, social breakdown, government corruption... The western empire is about to collapse.  But at least the emphasis is on green so the hippies will be happy. 

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

6 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

 As a country, we are already too rich.  You can't build something up without tearing something down in a world of limited resources.  To support the poor and those who don't make enough, a ceiling will have to be placed on earnings............call it the maximum wage.

Guillotines have been built in the past for this.

I don't think this is going to go over so well after a bit of consideration.  You folks talking about 500,000 and up houses who have 6 figure incomes are the beneficiaries.  

Think about that.

Respectfully, Maxx, I would like to offer an alternative to the zero sum view that someone doing well must take away from another.

A farmer takes seed, plants a crop, uses financial resources, material resources, and his labor to produce a crop.  (If he's lucky) His crop has more value than the seed, the resources, and his labor.

In short, he has created wealth.

And in that process he's taken nothing away from anybody.  In fact, his industry not only creates wealth for himself, but for all the people he purchases items from in order to create his wealth.  His crop is sold, and in turn is sold again by the person/people who buy it (who make money on that transaction), and is enjoyed by the people who consume it.  If the crop is used in a baked item or other finished food item, then the people who make those items create wealth as well.

At no point has anyone taken anything away from a poor person, a homeless person, or a person who makes minimum wage.

As the farmer has created his wealth - whether small or large - placing an artificial cap on how much he can earn or keep does not free up money for someone who is needy.  I would suggest the opposite - letting the farmer earn and keep as much as he legally can and as much as he is morally willing encourages him to help those less fortunate, to pay better wages and benefits to his employees, to raise more crops to feed more people.

Substitute 'restaurant owner' (or any other business person for that matter) for the farmer and the basic principles remain.  I will grant there are business people who take advantage and use people, break laws, and hold greed as their primary driver in their lives.  But I believe they are the minority that we hear about in the news because such stories sell, and that most business owners are looking to honestly and legally grow their businesses at the expense of no one.

[shootingstar]

36 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

At no point has anyone taken anything away from a poor person, a homeless person, or a person who makes minimum wage.

As the farmer has created his wealth - whether small or large - placing an artificial cap on how much he can earn or keep does not free up money for someone who is needy.  I would suggest the opposite - letting the farmer earn and keep as much as he legally can and as much as he is morally willing encourages him to help those less fortunate, to pay better wages and benefits to his employees, to raise more crops to feed more people.

Substitute 'restaurant owner' (or any other business person for that matter) for the farmer and the basic principles remain.  I will grant there are business people who take advantage and use people, break laws, and hold greed as their primary driver in their lives.  But I believe they are the minority that we hear about in the news because such stories sell, and that most business owners are looking to honestly and legally grow their businesses at the expense of no one.

I'm not convinced for alot of independent small-medium private service sector businesses even know what a reasonable wage benchmark would be. And they will  not take much time to figure it out. Some just don't have the research/financial smarts to do it (cost of living, etc.) and do it in relationship to the cost of hiring and training cycles which can suck up their time and energy in a fast-paced industries such as restaurant/hospitality. The daily business operational demands to schedule and stay on top, can be quite great on the owner...dealing with suppliers, landlord, staff scheduling/etc. 

So have the minimum wage can give at least a benchmark for employers what expectations should be .....not just for restaurant, for all low-income jobs... fruit/veggie farm workers, retail, restaurant, hotel, etc. Minimum wage doesn't have to start off as punitive but enough time given for business owners to plan for it. 

Some of us already work in professions where our salaries are partially driven what  industry trends are nationally ......or locally. Where there is no legislated benchmark. However even for some national professional associations via salary industry surveys via their members, that doesn't solve certain problems of gross underpayment for highly qualified /experienced candidates.  

It is a dog-eat-dog world already in many situations ...big time.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

57 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Respectfully, Maxx, I would like to offer an alternative to the zero sum view that someone doing well must take away from another.

A farmer takes seed, plants a crop, uses financial resources, material resources, and his labor to produce a crop.  (If he's lucky) His crop has more value than the seed, the resources, and his labor.

In short, he has created wealth.

And in that process he's taken nothing away from anybody.  In fact, his industry not only creates wealth for himself, but for all the people he purchases items from in order to create his wealth.  His crop is sold, and in turn is sold again by the person/people who buy it (who make money on that transaction), and is enjoyed by the people who consume it.  If the crop is used in a baked item or other finished food item, then the people who make those items create wealth as well.

At no point has anyone taken anything away from a poor person, a homeless person, or a person who makes minimum wage.

As the farmer has created his wealth - whether small or large - placing an artificial cap on how much he can earn or keep does not free up money for someone who is needy.  I would suggest the opposite - letting the farmer earn and keep as much as he legally can and as much as he is morally willing encourages him to help those less fortunate, to pay better wages and benefits to his employees, to raise more crops to feed more people.

Substitute 'restaurant owner' (or any other business person for that matter) for the farmer and the basic principles remain.  I will grant there are business people who take advantage and use people, break laws, and hold greed as their primary driver in their lives.  But I believe they are the minority that we hear about in the news because such stories sell, and that most business owners are looking to honestly and legally grow their businesses at the expense of no one.

I submit that our "wealth" is built on massive debt, an artificial construct on Wall Street and a couple of centuries of our position as a core country, buying raw materials from and selling finished goods to less fortunate nations.  That largess is rapidly running out.  It's a zero sum game because the resources of this planet are finite. 

[Bikeguy]

1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

I submit that our "wealth" is built on massive debt,

All the business I know had to make a profit, or they are no longer a business.  Too much debt bankrupts a business. 

Or government (and all the other governments) on the other hand has become extremely proficient at creating debt and spending trillions dollars that never existed.   That devalues the value of the dollar and it's called inflation. 

https://www.usdebtclock.org/ 

[maddmaxx ★]

6 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

All the business I know had to make a profit, or they are no longer a business.  Too much debt bankrupts a business. 

Or government (and all the other governments) on the other hand has become extremely proficient at creating debt and spending trillions dollars that never existed.   That devalues the value of the dollar and it's called inflation. 

https://www.usdebtclock.org/ 

As of the 2nd quarter of 2022 US household debt was in excess of 16 trillion dollars.  The US economy has become a ponzii scheme based on the expectations of forever growth.

[Wilbur ★]

I expect increases in salaries will give way to tip-creeping.  You will have to decide if you should tip literally everyone. 

[maddmaxx ★]

19 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

I expect increases in salaries will give way to tip-creeping.  You will have to decide if you should tip literally everyone. 

Including the common practice of now putting the tip on the "pay" screen of the credit card.  It's no longer something you do for good service.  It's expected that you will support the staff no matter what.  This includes places where you sit down and order from an auto menu and pay the same way.  Someone comes and put the dish on your table.  Please tip %18 for that kindness.

I did tip, even for takeout, during the covid shutdowns.  That seems to be the new expected normal now.  I'd prefer to do away with the tip concept and just pay the staff appropriately and put that into the actual price of the food.

[Bikeguy]

3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

As of the 2nd quarter of 2022 US household debt was in excess of 16 trillion dollars.

That's just people living above their means.     That bill comes do too.   WoBG's friend has a sister who declared bankruptcy twice when they worked. (the people who pay their bills, pay that bill too)  Now they are retired, and have SS for income. 

https://www.debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/demographics/#:~:text=The median household income hit,an average debt of %24145%2C000.

[MickinMD ★]

My cousin's husband had an Internet/Intranet installation company with 6 workers that he paid, a decade or so ago, $60K when the going rate was $80K.  He took home $600,000 per year, but couldn't do with $480,000 to pay his workers the fair rate.  He complained to me that it was hard to find competent workers and they quit at the first chance to get more money: no loyalty.  I wanted to tell him he wasn't loyal to them from the start, but held my tongue for my cousin's sake.

There are some small business cases, though, where the cafe, book store, etc. owners don't make much themselves.

I think there ought to be a scale of minimum wages like there is in France, where teenagers and retirees can be paid less for part-time work but full-time workers are paid at least a living wage.

When I was in China and our Chinese guides and the workers on our Yangtze River Cruise ship marveled about how much Americans were paid, a social worker from Minneapolis in our tour group began to point out the payroll deductions for retirement and health insurance plus the costs Americans pay out of pocket for health and dental care, prescriptions. sales tax, etc. that don't exist in some other countries.  Even the Chinese singers, Tai Chi instructors, etc. wondered how lower-paid Americans could get by.

[Razors Edge ★]

3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

As of the 2nd quarter of 2022 US household debt was in excess of 16 trillion dollars.  The US economy has become a ponzii scheme based on the expectations of forever growth.

What's the NET worth?  $149 trillion > $16 trillion.  

Assuming I get 1/330,000,000 of that debt, I'm fine - by a LONG shot.  

U.S. household wealth declined for the first time in two years in the first quarter of 2022 as a drop in the stock market overwhelmed continued gains in home values, a Federal Reserve report on Thursday showed.

Household net worth edged down to $149.3 trillion from a record $149.8 trillion at the end of last year, the Fed's quarterly snapshot of the national balance sheet showed.

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, Bikeguy said:

That's just people living above their means.     That bill comes do too.   WoBG's friend has a sister who declared bankruptcy twice when they worked. (the people who pay their bills, pay that bill too)  Now they are retired, and have SS for income. 

https://www.debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/demographics/#:~:text=The median household income hit,an average debt of %24145%2C000.

It’s all a matter of age, income, ethnicity, family type and education level.   From the link.

Were it just so easy to dismiss as "those people" living above their means.  That's the crux of the stratified class filled society we have made for ourselves.  This is an upper middle class and rich country and all the rest of you are simply living above your means.  You should eat cake.

[Razors Edge ★]

3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

Including the common practice of now putting the tip on the "pay" screen of the credit card.  It's no longer something you do for good service.  It's expected that you will support the staff no matter what.  This includes places where you sit down and order from an auto menu and pay the same way.  Someone comes and put the dish on your table.  Please tip %18 for that kindness.

I did tip, even for takeout, during the covid shutdowns.  That seems to be the new expected normal now.  I'd prefer to do away with the tip concept and just pay the staff appropriately and put that into the actual price of the food.

Probably a bit of that comes from not knowing what a person who simply "comes and put the dish on your table" gets paid, correct?  Is that person making minimum wage, the much LOWER waitstaff wage, or something greater than both?  With waitstaff paid in lower hourly wages with tips expected to bring them up to the minimum (no higher), it is probably in the restaurant owner's best interest to ENCOURAGE tipping to get that $6/hr waitstaff pay up to the $15/min wage ASAP and out of the CUSTOMER's pocket, not the restaurant's pocket.

By shifting the tip to front and center, I imagine it makes calculating wages + tips easier for the business, PLUS shifts the way to get the delta paid for by customers and not owners.

[Bikeguy]

5 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

PLUS shifts the way to get the delta paid for by customers and not owners.

The customer will always end up paying.  The owners, if they have to pay, they will increase prices.    It goes back to... if a business doesn't make a profit, they don't stay in business.   Just like when taxes are increased on a business.... the customer will always pay for the tax increase too. 

9 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

including the common practice of now putting the tip on the "pay" screen of the credit card.  It's no longer something you do for good service.  It's expected that you will support the staff no matter what.  This includes places where you sit down and order from an auto menu and pay the same way.  Someone comes and put the dish on your table.  Please tip %18 for that kindness.

I did tip, even for takeout, during the covid shutdowns.  That seems to be the new expected normal now.  I'd prefer to do away with the tip concept and just pay the staff appropriately and put that into the actual price of the food.

Or you can move to one of these 19 countries.   https://www.annieandre.com/countries-where-you-dont-need-to-tip/ 

Check out the column "Minimum Cash Wage" here  https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped for a restaurant worker.    We visited a local restaurant so much, we were friends with our server and knew everyone who worked there.   She told us her pay check was based on $2.13 per hour, and then withholding was deducted from the pay check to pay the taxes on the tips.  So her 'pay check' was very minimal, and tips was how she made almost all of her money.   We visited that place enough, when it did go out of business (in 2006) we got invited to the staff picnic they had for one last get together.

If you want to tip, you can leave cash.  That way the server can (if so inclined) may 'forget' to inform the government about the income.  

 

 

[Bikeguy]

6 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

You should eat cake.

I'd rather have bratwurst. 

[Razors Edge ★]

13 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

The customer will always end up paying.  The owners, if they have to pay, they will increase prices.    It goes back to... if a business doesn't make a profit, they don't stay in business.   Just like when taxes are increased on a business.... the customer will always pay for the tax increase too. 

Yes - but look at it this way: If you cash tip with a $20 bill, and the tips pile up over night, how easy is it for the owners - on the hook for going from say $6/waitstaff pay to the $15/min wage pay - to suss out when and if the waiter hit that $15 min per hour?    Additionally, how much easier does it make it for the owners to "convince" - ie nudge - patrons to leave a tip - especially a higher than in the past amount? It makes it all a LOT easier, so the OWNERS make MORE money, the waiters might make more money, and yes, the PATRONS pay more money - WHICH IS THE POINT of running a business. Literally innumerable business folks spend their careers figuring out how to either reduce costs and/or increase margins.  If you can sell the same burger for $15 that you used to sell for $14, all other things equal, you are WINNING at business.  

[Bikeguy]

49 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Yes - but look at it this way: If you cash tip with a $20 bill, and the tips pile up over night, how easy is it for the owners - on the hook for going from say $6/waitstaff pay to the $15/min wage pay - to suss out when and if the waiter hit that $15 min per hour?    Additionally, how much easier does it make it for the owners to "convince" - ie nudge - patrons to leave a tip - especially a higher than in the past amount? It makes it all a LOT easier, so the OWNERS make MORE money, the waiters might make more money, and yes, the PATRONS pay more money - WHICH IS THE POINT of running a business. Literally innumerable business folks spend their careers figuring out how to either reduce costs and/or increase margins.  If you can sell the same burger for $15 that you used to sell for $14, all other things equal, you are WINNING at business.

True...  

Remember several years ago... when some restaurants started a 'no tipping'' policy?   That seems to have completely gone way. (except at fast food places)   So I don't think need for tipping will change any time soon.  Whatever happened to the no-tipping experiment? It failed

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, Bikeguy said:

The customer will always end up paying.  The owners, if they have to pay, they will increase prices.    It goes back to... if a business doesn't make a profit, they don't stay in business.   Just like when taxes are increased on a business.... the customer will always pay for the tax increase too. 

Or you can move to one of these 19 countries.   https://www.annieandre.com/countries-where-you-dont-need-to-tip/ 

Check out the column "Minimum Cash Wage" here  https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped for a restaurant worker.    We visited a local restaurant so much, we were friends with our server and knew everyone who worked there.   She told us her pay check was based on $2.13 per hour, and then withholding was deducted from the pay check to pay the taxes on the tips.  So her 'pay check' was very minimal, and tips was how she made almost all of her money.   We visited that place enough, when it did go out of business (in 2006) we got invited to the staff picnic they had for one last get together.

If you want to tip, you can leave cash.  That way the server can (if so inclined) may 'forget' to inform the government about the income.  

 

 

The cash tip is my preferred way of tipping.  The machine screens feel awkward, as if they were demanding it.

[Bikeguy]

8 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

The cash tip is my preferred way of tipping. 

8 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

The machine screens feel awkward, as if they were demanding it.