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So paving and widening a park pathway will cause chaos


shootingstar
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this is by a river in a mountain resort town just about 20 km. away from town of Banff. 

So a bunch of locals protested paving this gravel pathway which I can imagine people walk daily.  It's by the river.  I'm sorry...clearly some locals haven't biked often on gravel WITH pedestrians/dogs on leash, close by, under all weather conditions.  This area gets snow and ice ...more than our city.  And it sticks around longer than ours. 

Canmore residents disrupt council meeting with concerns over pathway plan | CBC News

The mountain town is expanding in population.  So no matter what, the pathway will get busier than ie. a decade ago. I am not sympathetic to the locals.

After all, I have lived by and used daily major, long and nice bike-ped pathways in 3 major cities.  Paving reduces falls/skids and you don't want that with increased daily use around yourself.

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16 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

I like both gravel, and paved paths. Around me they're paved. But up north and on the west side by @Kzoo they're are some gravel paths.

For medium to heavy use by many people..and their walking dogs, of paths, that encourages cycling, pedestrians, e-scooters (since our city has had them for rent last 3 yrs.), e-bikes, paved is safer for everyone.  Gravel works better with lower use areas, heavily wooded and other vegetation very close along path.

I find myself the older I get, the less keen I am to bike on gravel. And get picky on type of gravel..to me hard packed and just fine gravel on surface.  Sure low psi and wider tires helps, I don't schrlap like DirtyHip.

However, I get my courage in other avenues in life.  And those other avenues have been so real for me to face the fire...alone.

 

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20 yrs. ago, I was different dealing with gravel and did it with less thinking, especially going on rolling paths. 

Small point, I've lived: across the street, 1 block away, and 1 km. away in each city, from major well-use park pathway systems for cyclists, peds., joggers and dogs. So I used a major pathway nearly daily for 8 months of the yr. for past 3 decades. I've been super blessed in this way, because each of those paths in each city were connected up to multiple parks per city.  It's been great.

Gravel..parts..maybe 20% in those 100 km. bike pathway systems for all 3 city systems that I've done.  Calgary alone has several hundred kms. of cycling park paths. Most of it interconnected.

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16 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Walking on snow is much better on gravel than paved paths but clearly, we all want what suits our own interests. Screw the rest! :) 

Maybe, but who wants to deal with mud/slush / snow which takes forever to melt in spring, when the pathway was never snow-cleared because it's supposed to be "natural". (which is fine)

When a paved park pathway is snow cleared within 48 hrs. (I think that's our city's benchmark for downtown-midtown areas), it's better long term. Less ice/rocky ice build-up, earlier clear-free of ice for spring with our dry prairie air year round that sucks up melting snow/ice faster than southern Ontario which has more humid air year-round.  This is what I've noticed since living here compared to Toronto.

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There is a tendency in most of us to resist certain changes, even when it's apparently for good because we've seen how much has gone downhill over the years.  For example, our County Council voted in the late 70's to ban any more redlights being placed on Ritchie Hwy, because it had gone from many open spaces to a lot of congestion.  But that was eventually overruled for "safety reasons.'  More communities were built, etc. and now traffic crawls along the highway at 15 mph in some places from 1:30 pm - 6:30 pm as well as being stopped over and over and over by red lights.

So it really takes a serious attempt at being objective to see the benefit of widening and paving that trail.

Of course, I wonder if some don't want it changed because it might attract much more traffic.

 

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The city of Lincoln NE has a large amount of paths with crushed limestone. It is VERY comfortable for runners, yet still sure footed for almost all bikes. I agree that it is more sure footed in snowy and icy situations.
I kept encouraging our old city to expand their trail network with crushed limestone, but they insisted the trails be paved. 

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1 minute ago, MickinMD said:

There is a tendency in most of us to resist certain changes, even when it's apparently for good because we've seen how much has gone downhill over the years.  For example, our County Council voted in the late 70's to ban any more redlights being placed on Ritchie Hwy, because it had gone from many open spaces to a lot of congestion.  But that was eventually overruled for "safety reasons.'  More communities were built, etc. and now traffic crawls along the highway at 15 mph in some places from 1:30 pm - 6:30 pm as well as being stopped over and over and over by red lights.

So it really takes a serious attempt at being objective to see the benefit of widening and paving that trail.

Of course, I wonder if some don't want it changed because it might attract much more traffic.

 

Roundabouts would fix that red light situation. 

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1 hour ago, groupw said:

Roundabouts would fix that red light situation. 

Admittedly as a cyclist, I use a traffic roundabout on weekends. 

It's when car traffic is lighter. And less transport trucks are using it on weekends.  It is wide and intersects with 3 busy roads AND a live operating freight national railway line that is used to ship major commodities and raw materials across Canada (Canadian Pacific Rail). So as a cyclist entering into the roundabout, it just feels better and drivers aren't as freaked when the traffic volume is lighter for everyone to navigate safely and peacefully.

Traffic roundabout is also by a major police detachment office. :)  So don't be dumb doing stuff.

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8 minutes ago, MickinMD said:

Of course, I wonder if some don't want it changed because it might attract much more traffic.

 

You will definitely get more traffic. Little old ladies that don’t like gravel will start riding it as well as scooters, hoverboards, in-line skates.

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1 hour ago, groupw said:

The city of Lincoln NE has a large amount of paths with crushed limestone. It is VERY comfortable for runners, yet still sure footed for almost all bikes. I agree that it is more sure footed in snowy and icy situations.
I kept encouraging our old city to expand their trail network with crushed limestone, but they insisted the trails be paved. 

We need to find a balance, groupw. There would be a broader range of cyclists if large sections were paved. I don't how it was re snow clearing where you used to live.

Think through this folks.....of people with walkers, canes and wheelchairs. That pathway must suit all age groups safety also. We have to think far in advance when planning pathways.

I'm thinking of my 84-yr. friend, ex-cyclist (she had 2 different bikes) who now happily walks on pathway. She's happy on hard packed, flat paths ...and paved.  She walks with hiking poles (partially because I think she wants to be balanced upright). But there were times, she used a walker recently. This is someone who cycled-toured across CAnada from Victoria BC to St. John's Newfoundland.. over 80% on her own @65 yrs.

Think of everyone on this forum....for next 20-30 yrs. out. Not just now. :party:

I no longer worry about "heavier" use.  I would like more people to adopt more healthier ways of mobility, more frequently. It's not just about my health, it is their health....and keeping costs down for society as whole long-term.

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15 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

IMO paved paths will be more slippery during show season.  If they are near a river the might even be black ice/frozen fog or mist on them.

No, hardly ice on our snow-cleared paved paths are cleared near where I am.  At least within a 10-15 km. radius. Because of our municipal benchmark to clear snow within 48 hrs. of snowfall (may need to check website for this). I see the snowbrushing machines (because our snow is fine) and little snowplowers that we contract out these jobs to small local firms. 

Of all forumites here, I have to walk on our pathways to get to places to do stuff, several times per wk. in winter, every winter for past 11 yrs. 

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If the local protesters win out send the paving trucks down here. Our township supervisors are clueless how to maintain a gravel road. Other gravel roads in my area are much better maintained than my gravel road. I would blame it on the hills but the flat part of my road is bad too.

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Just now, shootingstar said:

No, our paths are cleared near where I am.  At least within a 10-15 km. radius. Because of municipal benchmark to clear snow within 48 hrs. of snowfall (may need to check website for this). I see the snowbrushing machines (because our snow is fine) and little snowplowers that we contract out these jobs to small local firms. 

Of all forumites here, I have to walk on our pathways to get to places to do stuff, several times per wk. in winter, every winter for past 11 yrs. 

Before we went overboard on salt, we put sand/gravel on paved roadways to improve traction.  Dampness on paved surfaces in freezing temps turns to ice quickly.  The texture of the sand/gravel keeps one from sliding.

But then it doesn't sound like you have to deal with our kinds of snow which is wet and sticky most of the time.

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8 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Before we went overboard on salt, we put sand/gravel on paved roadways to improve traction.  Dampness on paved surfaces in freezing temps turns to ice quickly.  The texture of the sand/gravel keeps one from sliding.

Sand is good.  Then spring, our municipal roads crew have to clear too sand off the path/roads because of skidding/messiness.

In past winter, our municipal roads crews for  separated bike lanes on roads (we don't have that many protected lanes) they also tried using an environmental friendly additive that had beet juice mixed in which left a light pink/red tinge on snow.  It disappeared next day.

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12 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

My concussion of a few years ago was caused by a fall on a cleared black paved driveway devoid of all snow.  A film of black ice had formed overnight just from dampness and it nearly killed me.

I used to do a lot (more than any other forumite) of winter trail rides and have in norther BC, Coastal BC, mountainous BC Northern Alberta and Norther and Southern Ontario and I will take gravel over paved any day.  In winter, with mixed snow/ice removal it is simply much safer. 

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40 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

My concussion of a few years ago was caused by a fall on a cleared black paved driveway devoid of all snow.  A film of black ice had formed overnight just from dampness and it nearly killed me.

I'm sorry to hear. I had my concussion accident on a snow-free balmy New Year's Day in 2015.  It was warm, lovely and another cyclist crashed into me as I turned a corner.

Southern Alberta at least our area, gets warm chinook winds several times per winter from the west,  which melts our  snow off alot at times.  So we do have  a wk. or more of pathways and sidewalks that were shovelled, that becomes simply bare ice-free pavement. Quite different from Northern Alberta where I would find it harder to live in ie. Edmonton.

The  7 times I've fallen off my bike,  5 of those time, was on black ice...in Vancouver.  

Chinook | The Canadian Encyclopedia

In Canada, the chinook belt lies almost exclusively within southern and central Alberta. The wind occurs in every season, but it is more distinctive and numerous in the winter, when the unseasonable warming it brings differentiates it from the normal cold winter weather.

 

Chinook

  Chinook, warm, dry, gusty, westerly WIND that blows down the Rocky Mountains into the mountains' eastern slopes and the western prairies. The chinook, a native word meaning "snow eater," belongs to a family of winds experienced in many parts of the world where long mountain chains lie more or less at right angles to the prevailing wind. Examples include the foehn in Europe, the zonda in Argentina and the berg in South Africa.

In Canada, the chinook belt lies almost exclusively within southern and central Alberta. The wind occurs in every season, but it is more distinctive and numerous in the winter, when the unseasonable warming it brings differentiates it from the normal cold winter weather. In southwestern Alberta, one in 3 winter days is a chinook day; its frequency drops to one in 5 in the northeast. The maximum daily temperature anomaly associated with the wind ranges from +13°C in the northwest to +25°C in the southeast. The temperature rise at the onset of the event is abrupt and steep; an increase of 27°C in 2 minutes has been observed.

The warmth of the chinook is derived primarily from 2 nonmutually exclusive sources. Firstly, the replacement of arctic air (the mean temperature at Calgary's elevation is -24°C) by maritime air (-2°C) improves surface temperatures. Secondly, if the downslope flow occurs following a loss of moisture through precipitation on the windward side of the mountain, the heat used to change the water into vapour (latent heat) is returned to the air parcel and warms it. The downslope flow leeward of the mountain warms the wind further, reducing its relative humidity sometimes down to 25% or less. Wind speed ranges from 16 km/h to 60 km/h, gusting to 100 km/h.

The chinook melts snow, dries soil, desiccates vegetation and is a factor in soil erosion. Most people appreciate the chinook because it is a pleasant break from the frigid winter temperatures characteristic of the region. However, a significant minority complain of discomforts ranging from headaches and earaches

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Being out on the prairies, especially as a cyclist out in open parks or if you're a jogger in same area, you can literally see a certain cloud ridge of a chinook wind entering in your area overhead with increased wind velocity.

As a cyclist, if you're experienced with drastic temperature changes 1 day in our area, it does mean layering and having a bike pannier to pack away clothing layers, as it becomes significantly warmer during the day.  It is normal, in our area especially in spring and fall, to experience up to 15-18 degree C temp change within 4 hrs. during the day.

 

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3 hours ago, shootingstar said:

We need to find a balance, groupw. There would be a broader range of cyclists if large sections were paved. I don't how it was re snow clearing where you used to live.

Think through this folks.....of people with walkers, canes and wheelchairs. That pathway must suit all age groups safety also. We have to think far in advance when planning pathways.

I'm thinking of my 84-yr. friend, ex-cyclist (she had 2 different bikes) who now happily walks on pathway. She's happy on hard packed, flat paths ...and paved.  She walks with hiking poles (partially because I think she wants to be balanced upright). But there were times, she used a walker recently. This is someone who cycled-toured across CAnada from Victoria BC to St. John's Newfoundland.. over 80% on her own @65 yrs.

Think of everyone on this forum....for next 20-30 yrs. out. Not just now. :party:

I no longer worry about "heavier" use.  I would like more people to adopt more healthier ways of mobility, more frequently. It's not just about my health, it is their health....and keeping costs down for society as whole long-term.

Lincoln, according to my son has trails cleared before streets. He often bikes to work during blizzards. Lincoln does have a significant number of paved trails as well. They have a 10 mile running race mid March to early April. The race uses the Mopac trail which is paved for the first mile before changing to limestone trail. You then finish the last mile on the pavement again. 
One year, it snowed during the race. The footing was far superior on the limestone. The transition back to pavement was frightening! The segment on concrete between the limestone and asphalt became a shuffle. The asphalt had enough texture to get traction. 
I understand what you are saying about uneven surfaces. My mom is 80 and is definitely as sure footed anymore. She keeps a cane for when she is not sure about the surface. Like many seniors, if things look too bad, she stays in. She has a LifeAlert and keeps it on her, but would prefer to not use it!

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34 minutes ago, groupw said:

Lincoln, according to my son has trails cleared before streets. He often bikes to work during blizzards. Lincoln does have a significant number of paved trails as well. They have a 10 mile running race mid March to early April. The race uses the Mopac trail which is paved for the first mile before changing to limestone trail. You then finish the last mile on the pavement again. 
One year, it snowed during the race. The footing was far superior on the limestone. The transition back to pavement was frightening! The segment on concrete between the limestone and asphalt became a shuffle. The asphalt had enough texture to get traction. 
I understand what you are saying about uneven surfaces. My mom is 80 and is definitely as sure footed anymore. She keeps a cane for when she is not sure about the surface. Like many seniors, if things look too bad, she stays in. She has a LifeAlert and keeps it on her, but would prefer to not use it!

My 88 yr. old mother doesn't even go for a walk around the block. Or up and down street for 10 houses.  We would be happy if she did that. It has been like this for past 4 years or so. She needs her cane. Anyway, don't get me started... on mother's choices.

The more frightened a person gets, then the less walking, then less competence they feel and it becomes a slow downward spiral.

After living in Vancouver for 8 yrs., when I came to prairies I did have to readjust my walking to get my snow-ice legs/footing again. Am worried?  This is why I live close to things, so hopefully far into the future, when I need taxi cab ride, it's a short, not too expensive ride.  

We all have to think and plan way out into future, and that includes infrastructure.  I'm not wanting to fall into depression later, because I made the wrong choice of location for home.

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9 hours ago, shootingstar said:

I'm not wanting to fall into depression later, because I made the wrong choice of location for home.

Most people downsize and find suitable housing for their stage of life.  I would not want to live in the city business centre if I was retired. So, just because it made sense while working, it may not in a different stage of life. If a young couple lived in a one room flat, is it depressing when they have to buy bigger to accommodate a family? 

But on this thread, why should Canmore residents have to fight the will of Calgarians like yourself?  Just don't ride there. Stick to the paths of Calgary and leave Canmore alone. 

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5 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Most people downsize and find suitable housing for their stage of life.  I would not want to live in the city business centre if I was retired. So, just because it made sense while working, it may not in a different stage of life. If a young couple lived in a one room flat, is it depressing when they have to buy bigger to accommodate a family? 

But on this thread, why should Canmore residents have to fight the will of Calgarians like yourself?  Just don't ride there. Stick to the paths of Calgary and leave Canmore alone. 

I'm just giving an example of Canmore municipality making their own decision to widen and pave path Wilbur. They already had their public engagement. So the protesting crowd this month was protesting too late. Mayor told them the public engagement was done (probably several wks. or months ago).  

Keepin' on track, Wilbur.  I'm just pointing out the different needs for  paved paths ....for any municipality with multi-use local needs.

I live an unusual part of the city that's a blend. 

As you know already, VAncovuer and Toronto are different where some families have chosen to live midtown and downtown. They have built public schools in downtown Vancovuer and 1 elementary school is overflowing.  

I want to make this clear:  I lived in the suburbs of Toronto for 14 years but had close proximity to alot of services and transportation options.  My parents did all options, apartments because they couldn't afford until a house in historic area of donwtown Waterloo, then to suburbs in Kitchener when children moved out and then finally midtown in semi-detached in Toronto close to range of services.

They sold their homes well at different stages. I suspect my mother's house will too (once we get it gussied up if there's time when it all happens one day) since she is in an ideal location.  

I am actually very surprised  by the opposition / resistance the number of people  here in a cycling forum... about even thinking to have a home close to services and transportation options. 

So I'm naive. Shrug.  I do live a slightly different world as someone who doesn't have car nor drives.  

Note:  In Toronto, over 30% residents don't drive /own car.

 

 

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