So, it got me wondering if people are changing thought processes

[12string]

I was buying massage gift cards, and saw the note that girls under 18 can only be massaged by a female.

What about boys under 18?  I mean, pretty sure I know their preference on this, but....

And what if the girl or masseuse (or both) are gay?

Which then goes to, with all of this gender identity an bathroom hubbub - would you care more if your bathroom or locker room was inhabited by someone of the opposite sex, or someone of the same sex but gay?

It's all so confusing.

I, however, do not care one bit whichever.  Americans are way to hung up about nudity and such anyway

[jsharr ★]

7 minutes ago, 12string said:

I was buying massage gift cards, and saw the note that girls under 18 can only be massaged by a female.

What about boys under 18?  I mean, pretty sure I know their preference on this, but....

And what if the girl or masseuse (or both) are gay?

Which then goes to, with all of this gender identity an bathroom hubbub - would you care more if your bathroom or locker room was inhabited by someone of the opposite sex, or someone of the same sex but gay?

It's all so confusing.

I, however, do not care one bit whichever.  Americans are way to hung up about nudity and such anyway

What are you wearing? 

[MoseySusan]

8 minutes ago, 12string said:

And what if the girl or masseuse (or both) are gay?

I ran into this situation with the debate team and overnight tournaments. Gay girlfriends shared a hotel room with two other girls who didn’t mind, but there were girls on the team who requested to not be assigned a room with them. And a couple of boys who didn’t want to room with their gay teammate. I don’t think it’s nudity, per se, as much as uncovered genitalia. We’re probably ok with butt cheeks, 

[Parr8hed]

10 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

I ran into this situation with the debate team and overnight tournaments. Gay girlfriends shared a hotel room with two other girls who didn’t mind, but there were girls on the team who requested to not be assigned a room with them. And a couple of boys who didn’t want to room with their gay teammate. I don’t think it’s nudity, per se, as much as uncovered genitalia. We’re probably ok with butt cheeks, 

Interesting questions that I had never really even considered.  And with a 15 year old daughter that is going to be playing high school softball this year I guess those talks are probably coming soon.   

[12string]

51 minutes ago, jsharr said:

What are you wearing? 

the issue would only occur when wearing nothing, I suppose.  Or in the case of a massage, almost nothing, since there's a lot of touching involved.

[12string]

37 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

Gay girlfriends shared a hotel room

Curious - did the school allow male/female couples to share a room?  That's a step beyond the questions I was asking, but another thing we are going to have to figure out

[ChrisL]

53 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Interesting questions that I had never really even considered.  And with a 15 year old daughter that is going to be playing high school softball this year I guess those talks are probably coming soon.   

We had a female trainer for girls sports but the same female trainer also assisted with football (with a male trainer).  But my daughters HS kept a female trainer for girl athletes.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 hour ago, 12string said:

under 18

Luckily, the magic pixie dust makes it all go away at the instant they turn 18.

[MoseySusan]

48 minutes ago, 12string said:

allow male/female couples to share a room

No. Couple or not, no mixed-gender hotel rooms. There were no non-binary or transgender students on the debate team, but there were in the Drama Club and they travelled to festivals out-of-state. I don't remember how they worked out accommodations.

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

34 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Luckily, the magic pixie dust makes it all go away at the instant they turn 18.

It goes away sooner if the parents opt to start inhaling the magic pixie dust.

[12string]

55 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

no mixed-gender hotel rooms.

But the gender isn't the problem.  It's the couple that's the problem.  What's safer, a gay couple or a boy and girl who have zero interest in the other gender?

[Zealot]

One of the most difficult things I ever remember having to do as a kid was use the locker room to change for gym and shower afterward. I hated every minute of it. 

I can’t imagine a situation (other than athletics) where one of my children would have gotten a massage from anyone. As adults they have. But as underage kids, no, I’d not have allowed it.

When I was military, the gals gave me a key to the female dorm. I came and went as I pleased. But we were all friends. And I held the girls’ confidences; I didn’t advertise my access to the dorm among the guys. 

I’d not personally be comfortable sharing a room with a gay guy. But I was never comfortable sharing a room with any guy. 

None of this is cohesive. Too many thoughts concerning all you brought up.

[MoseySusan]

13 minutes ago, 12string said:

What's safer, a gay couple or a boy and girl who have zero interest in the other gender?

It’s a more nuanced conversation than we can probably manage here. 

[shootingstar]

1 hour ago, Zealot said:

One of the most difficult things I ever remember having to do as a kid was use the locker room to change for gym and shower afterward. I hated every minute of it. 

I can’t imagine a situation (other than athletics) where one of my children would have gotten a massage from anyone. As adults they have. But as underage kids, no, I’d not have allowed it.

When I was military, the gals gave me a key to the female dorm. I came and went as I pleased. But we were all friends. And I held the girls’ confidences; I didn’t advertise my access to the dorm among the guys. 

I’d not personally be comfortable sharing a room with a gay guy. But I was never comfortable sharing a room with any guy. 

None of this is cohesive. Too many thoughts concerning all you brought up.

I would agree, not allowing massages for underage kid. 

Sorry for whatever bugged you Zealot as a kid ...with ghosts of whatever haunting.

Because I shared a bedroom with a sister at different times in life, I never had problems sharing sleeping accommodations with other women.  As for gay, it might help if I knew the person in advance and if there were other women sleeping in same rm too...  but most likely, wouldn't worry.  

I was never the sort of person in a change room, strutting around totally naked / talking about a ton of stuff. Some women do that, but not I. Me: take shower, get dressed and out the door. I can do my yaaaking elsewhere.

[MickinMD ★]

4 hours ago, 12string said:

I was buying massage gift cards, and saw the note that girls under 18 can only be massaged by a female.

What about boys under 18?  I mean, pretty sure I know their preference on this, but....

And what if the girl or masseuse (or both) are gay?

Which then goes to, with all of this gender identity an bathroom hubbub - would you care more if your bathroom or locker room was inhabited by someone of the opposite sex, or someone of the same sex but gay?

It's all so confusing.

I, however, do not care one bit whichever.  Americans are way to hung up about nudity and such anyway

We've become a very petty society and one where people will sue at the drop of a hat if they think they can even if it's logically ridiculous.

So you get all kinds of extra precautions.

[Wilbur ★]

2 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

It goes away sooner if the parents opt to start in home schooling.   

I agree.

[Zealot]

1 hour ago, shootingstar said:

Sorry for whatever bugged you Zealot as a kid ...with ghosts of whatever haunting.

It’s complicated. I’ve explained it a bit here before. 

No apologies are necessary. We are what we are. And we make choices to become who we become. But thank you. 

[Prophet Zacharia]

3 hours ago, 12string said:

But the gender isn't the problem.  It's the couple that's the problem.  What's safer, a gay couple or a boy and girl who have zero interest in the other gender?

I’d not let opposite (birth) gender kids room together, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity.
 

I’d not let romantically linked couples room together, be they heterosexual or gay. 
 

I’d let same gender individuals room together, regardless of their sexual orientation (as long as they aren’t dating). 

I’d let transgender kids of the same transition room together (M-F with M-F or F-M and F-M).

I would not have transgender kids room with cis kids.

After age 18, people can pick their rooms however they feel comfortable.

Nothing scientific about this, just my gut. 

[Zealot]

2 hours ago, shootingstar said:

I was never the sort of person in a change room, strutting around totally naked / talking about a ton of stuff. Some women do that, but not I. Me: take shower, get dressed and out the door. I can do my yaaaking elsewhere.

Me as well! Get in, get out. 😊 

I recall once when a couple jocks decided they wanted to make fun of me and instigated a confrontation. I think it was 9th grade. I didn’t back down. And I bested the guy who came at me.  It elevated my ‘status’ a bit and folks started leaving me alone. 

[Bikeguy]

3 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I’d not let opposite (birth) gender kids room together, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity.
 

I’d not let romantically linked couples room together, be they heterosexual or gay. 
 

I’d let same gender individuals room together, regardless of their sexual orientation (as long as they aren’t dating). 

I’d let transgender kids of the same transition room together (M-F with M-F or F-M and F-M).

I would not have transgender kids room with cis kids.

Nothing scientific about this, just my gut. 

Or how about everyone gets their own room?  

[Further]

The gay couples don't seem to get pregnant as often 

[shootingstar]

43 minutes ago, Zealot said:

It’s complicated. I’ve explained it a bit here before. 

No apologies are necessary. We are what we are. And we make choices to become who we become. But thank you. 

Thx for the link.  I read the whole thread, Zealot. I wasn't aware of it. Sometimes if we can help others know how we want them to see, address us...and not deny our deepest, longest life-held feelings....and identity. 

When I described just a few wks. ago that in my deep dreams, people are racially and visually defined in my dreams.  How else could I identify a parent, a sibling in my dreams??  It isn't just sensations/feelings in a dream, it's highly visual and racially defined for me..just as it is in real life.  While true, human emotions are universal, who we might naturally associate/ wish or fear in dreams, can be distinctly and visually defined for me, in a dream...unless it's a scary animal/monster.

 

[Dottleshead ★]

7 hours ago, jsharr said:

What are you wearing? 

I lol on this. I know, I know. I’m a cheap laugh but I’m good economy.

[Zealot]

23 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

Thx for the link.  I read the whole thread, Zealot. I wasn't aware of it. Sometimes if we can help others know how we want them to see, address us...and not deny our deepest, longest life-held feelings....and identity. 

When I described just a few wks. ago that in my deep dreams, people are racially and visually defined in my dreams.  How else could I identify a parent, a sibling in my dreams??  It isn't just sensations/feelings in a dream, it's highly visual and racially defined for me..just as it is in real life.  While true, human emotions are universal, who we might naturally associate/ wish or fear in dreams, can be distinctly and visually defined for me, in a dream...unless it's a scary animal/monster.

 

Yes, I did understand what you were expressing in the post about your dreams. I hope now my response to you in that post makes a little more sense. I didn’t realize you weren’t aware. My dreams of such things are very real and very taxing. 

Peace, this night.

[Randomguy]

7 hours ago, 12string said:

I was buying massage gift cards, and saw the note that girls under 18 can only be massaged by a female.

What about boys under 18?  I mean, pretty sure I know their preference on this, but....

And what if the girl or masseuse (or both) are gay?

Which then goes to, with all of is gender identity an bathroom hubbub - would you care more if your bathroom or locker room was inhabited by someone of the opposite sex, or someone of the same sex but gay?

It's all so confusing.

I, however, do not care one bit whichever.  Americans are way to hung up about nudity and such anyway

Is scissoring an approved therapy with massage therapists?  I would like to hope so.

[Prophet Zacharia]

1 hour ago, Bikeguy said:

Or how about everyone gets their own room?  

I assumed budgets didn’t allow this.

[Dottleshead ★]

8 hours ago, MoseySusan said:

We’re probably ok with butt cheeks, 

Maybe.

[Zealot]

7 hours ago, Zealot said:

Yes, I did understand what you were expressing in the post about your dreams. I hope now my response to you in that post makes a little more sense. I didn’t realize you weren’t aware. My dreams of such things are very real and very taxing. 

Peace, this night.

@shootingstar,I wrote this over 18 years ago:

“Broken”

In dreams and things

unknown to those

who do not view within

 

lie dormant thoughts and ponderings

for times and places when

 

one seeks to quell the self

who dies

and calls to mind a song

 

of deeply yearning, longing hearts

for days when all was strong

 

Imprinted in the circuitry

of memories and dreams

 

Are visions of a way unknown

yet familiar, and it seems

 

That if we strive to touch the hem

of that we know must be

 

We stumble o’er the fruit of that

forbidden, gilded tree

 

that brought us to this place in time

where strife and pain abound

 

and angels with their broken wings

fall silent to the ground...

- spring 2004

[Razors Edge ★]

9 hours ago, Randomguy said:

Is scissoring an approved therapy with massage therapists?  I would like to hope so.

Only with chicks that have the magic pixie dust sprinkled on them.  You don't want to mess with the non-pixie dusted chicks. 

 

10 hours ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

After age 18, people can pick their rooms however they feel comfortable.

Exactly.  It's a beautiful time of life - going from sheltered and naive to awake and wise.  Thank god for the pixie dust!

[Razors Edge ★]

12 hours ago, shootingstar said:

I was never the sort of person in a change room, strutting around totally naked / talking about a ton of stuff. Some women do that, but not I. Me: take shower, get dressed and out the door. I can do my yaaaking elsewhere.

This was always a "strange" situation.  I remember going to our gym (the Y nearby) where towels are plentiful, and always wondering about the dudes strutting around totally naked but with a towel over their shoulder.  I just didn't get it.  I would (and still do) wrap a towel around my waist to and from the shower out of simple modesty (maybe?).

But, I've also had many occasions of being naked around strangers for whatever reason - from spas where you spend time in saunas or soaking tubs naked with other folks to the showers where there were no partitions between the individual showers (and relatively open to random males and females wandering past).  

I got to the point where I really didn't care too much who sees me naked.  It's really a "societal" thing, not a "human" thing to get all wrapped up in one's skin and be prudish (or exhibitionist).    Likewise, assuming my gym or other experiences are with normal folks, I still never felt like the straight, gay, or bi folks were checking me out and trying to (inappropriately) get in my pants.  Maybe if I was at a club - like the swinging 70s or Spring Break - where it was all about hooking up, that would be the case, but in normal situations, I can pretty much say straight, gay, and bi folks pretty much all act like normal humans to me.  

[Randomguy]

34 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I remember going to our gym (the Y nearby) where towels are plentiful, and always wondering about the dudes strutting around totally naked but with a towel over their shoulder.  I just didn't get it.  I would (and still do) wrap a towel around my waist to and from the shower out of simple modesty (maybe?).

If a guy is doing that, then that guy is either gay or curious and advertising for gay sex, but definitely wants someone to look directly at them for very strange attention-whorism reasons.   In other words, they are being inappropriate as fuck regardless of the reasons.

In a locker room, you cover up.  The end.

[Razors Edge ★]

11 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

In a locker room, you cover up.  The end.

Hey, prude, some folks like showing their twigs and berries! Don't get your panties in a twist!

[MoseySusan]

45 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

In a locker room, you cover up.  The end.

Not the Russian bath ones. Nudity is required and everyone is normal about it. 

[Randomguy]

6 minutes ago, MoseySusan said:

Not the Russian bath ones. Nudity is required and everyone is normal about it. 

Ok, but in a normal gym locker room, it is definitely abnormal.

[Razors Edge ★]

12 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Ok, but in a normal gym locker room, it is definitely abnormal.

GET OUT OF YOUR BUBBLE!

[Randomguy]

7 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

GET OUT OF YOUR BUBBLE!

[az_cyclist]

12 hours ago, Dottles said:

I lol on this. I know, I know. I’m a cheap laugh but I’m good economy.

and nobody said khakis....

I guess Jake from St Farm is not on this thread

[12string]

1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

Ok, but in a normal gym locker room, it is definitely abnormal.

Maybe depends on where.

Strutting around naked in the spas, hanging around with the wife, friends, strangers - all is just totally normal, no one gives it a second thought.  A the gym, even though I really don't care, I wear a towel walking around because at the current time and place, that's what's totally normal.  People in this country do need to lighten up a bit, though.

[12string]

Really interesting conversation, and we all managed to keep a potential P&R topic clean!

[Randomguy]

19 minutes ago, 12string said:

Maybe depends on where.

Strutting around naked in the spas, hanging around with the wife, friends, strangers - all is just totally normal, no one gives it a second thought.  A the gym, even though I really don't care, I wear a towel walking around because at the current time and place, that's what's totally normal.  People in this country do need to lighten up a bit, though.

You just keep your dong away from me at the gym, you pervert!

[Razors Edge ★]

53 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

You just keep your dong away from me at the gym, you pervert!

Why? Do dongs frighten you?  That is WEIRD!

[Randomguy]

Just now, Razors Edge said:

Why? Do dongs frighten you?  That is WEIRD!

You won't talk me into looking at your dong.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Randomguy said:

You won't talk me into looking at your dong.

For me, maybe not Gary Coleman, but at least Verne Troyer!

 

[Zealot]

1 hour ago, 12string said:

Maybe depends on where.

People in this country do need to lighten up a bit, though.

Not really, IMO. Sometimes, I’m pretty certain we’ve lightened up too much. 

[bikeman564™]

29 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

You won't talk me into looking at your dong.

wanna hit the sauna?

[12string]

51 minutes ago, Zealot said:

Not really, IMO. Sometimes, I’m pretty certain we’ve lightened up too much. 

I think you may have misunderstood what we need to lighten up about.

Awareness of people's differences needs to raise considerably.

Fearing those differences, worrying about how they make us feel and how we react to them needs to lighten up.  We wouldn't be so uptight about transgender if we didn't feel the need to sexualize the human body,