EV's vs Hybrids

[MickinMD ★]

The U.S. Government has just made agreements with Tesla and others to greatly expand EV charging stations where every vehicle would have one standard shaped charge connector and use the DCFC system.

But a quick Google shows this: The fastest speed, direct current fast charging (DCFC) equipment, enables rapid charging along heavy-traffic corridors at installed stations. DCFC equipment can charge a BEV to 80 percent in just 20 minutes to 1 hour.Feb 2, 2022

Right now, if I'm 3rd in line for gas at Costco or on at a gas station on an island in the middle of an expressway, I have to wait about 10 minutes and then fill-up in 5 minutes.  If that happens with an EV, we're talking about an hour or more.

So, because I expect to do some driving where I'll need to charge before my destination, I'm leaning toward a hybrid, though there should be some new developments by my next car in the late 2020's to early 2030's

I looked at a study of EV's vs standard gas ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicles and added in hybrids plus battery pack depreciation.  Because the battery packs of hybrids are much smaller and much cheaper to replace - or count against you on a trade-in - than EV batteries, the cost per hundred miles driven came out lower for Hybrids than EV's which were lower than ICE vehicles.

So, if I was buying right now, I'd pick something like the Honda CR-V Hybrid (43 city, 36 hwy, 40 combined mpg) base automatic for $35K plus maybe some extras.

My next car is the one I'll be driving in my 80's, so I'll want all the safety and parking-assist stuff I'll need and which is becoming standard on some vehicles now.

 

[Randomguy]

It is a tough time to buy right now, you have to look at a lot of factors.  In Manhattan, for instance you would be lucky to find 4 gas stations in the whole borough, such is the cost of square footage.  Can you find even one charging station here that is available to the public?   Unless you have a dedicated parking space with dedicated charging, it might be kinda foolish to go the electric route.  In the burbs?   Could be pretty doable for a day tripper, but not a road tripper just yet.

 

There will be some growing pains yet, maybe hybrids would be the better choice right now.  A used car, once the price dump starts, might be better if you can wait a year.

[Further]

I personally think that hybrid is the best tech at this time 

[Tizeye]

20 minutes ago, Further said:

I personally think that hybrid is the best tech at this time 

So do I, but I was unwilling to wait 3 to 4 months for an Escape in a decent trim above the base. 

[Bikeguy]

1 hour ago, MickinMD said:

The U.S. Government has just made agreements with Tesla and others to greatly expand EV charging stations where every vehicle would have one standard shaped charge connector and use the DCFC system.

Now all they need to do is find a way for the electric utilities and grid to figure out how they will provide power for all of these locations.   That will be the expensive and difficult part.   

13 minutes ago, Further said:

I personally think that hybrid is the best tech at this time 

I totally agree... says a guy who has and a 2005 and now a 2016 Prius.  

[Razors Edge ★]

2 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Now all they need to do is find a way for the electric utilities and grid to figure out how they will provide power for all of these locations.   That will be the expensive and difficult part.   

If not now, when?

Seems, to me, we've been having the same "failing grid" discussion for 30 years.  There were NO hybrids and certainly no EVs when I first started hearing this excuse.

[jsharr ★]

I know that our building just invested in multiple charge station parking spaces.  I think a total of 6 chargers that use an app for billing at $.30 per kwh.  

[bikeman564™]

9 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Now all they need to do is find a way for the electric utilities and grid to figure out how they will provide power for all of these locations.   That will be the expensive and difficult part.   

I totally agree... says a guy who has and a 2005 and now a 2016 Prius.  

I'm confident the electric companies can do it. But who cuts the check to the electric companies for said work?

@Thaddeus Kosciuszko

[12string]

I was considering giving up my car and travelling by balloon.  I have recently decided against that plan.

[Dottleshead]

2 hours ago, Further said:

I personally think that hybrid is the best tech at this time 

It is. If I buy another car, it most likely will be a hybrid. If you go EV, use that one for your around town stuff.  Since I already own a hybrid, my second car could be all EV -- but I doubt it. Hybrid is great. I think it needs to be repeating.  My Toyota RAV4 hybrid gets outstanding gas mileage and actually has more power than a gas only powered RAV4 and it only cost $800 more.  Why the hell would I just go all gas?  I've already made up that difference in fuel costs.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Dottles said:

Why the hell would I just go all gas?  I've already made up that difference in fuel costs.

I think the reason was "child and slave labor", but I may be wrong.

[Dottleshead]

12 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I think the reason was "child and slave labor", but I may be wrong.

That was far out, man!  But I approve...  (even if I'm not connecting all the dots)

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Dottles said:

That was far out, man!  But I approve...  (even if I'm not connecting all the dots)

Doesn't your hybrid use a battery as part of the hybrid system?  

You are part of the problem, man! Next time, get a Fiddy like the smarter folks here, and call it a day!

[Dottleshead]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Doesn't your hybrid use a battery as part of the hybrid system?  

You are part of the problem, man! Next time, get a Fiddy like the smarter folks here, and call it a day!

Is a Fiddy like a Fifty dollar bill or is it more like an instrument?

[Randomguy]

12 minutes ago, Dottles said:

Is a Fiddy like a Fifty dollar bill or is it more like an instrument?

It is an instrument all right.  Gotta tow with something, water buffalo are too slow.

[Parr8hed]

37 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Doesn't your hybrid use a battery as part of the hybrid system?  

You are part of the problem, man! Next time, get a Fiddy like the smarter folks here, and call it a day!

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/features/hybrid/

[Razors Edge ★]

3 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

https://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/features/hybrid/

Our final choices included the only hybrid F150 in the area.  I decided it wasn't worth the premium.  But I do like the way it works as a generator.  But, I can buy a lot of generators for the price difference between mine and the hybrid we were looking at.

[Parr8hed]

17 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Our final choices included the only hybrid F150 in the area.  I decided it wasn't worth the premium.  But I do like the way it works as a generator.  But, I can buy a lot of generators for the price difference between mine and the hybrid we were looking at.

[Bikeguy]

6 hours ago, bikeman564™ said:

But who cuts the check to the electric companies for said work?

You do.

[bikeman564™]

11 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

You do.

nope, I'm not getting an e-car

[Bikeguy]

Just now, bikeman564™ said:

nope, I'm not getting an e-car

Yes you will pay.  We all will.     Unless you are disconnected from the utility. 

[Bikeguy]

7 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

If not now, when?

 

And that's the entire problem....

So we built our distribution system for the electric load that 'could' happen.  To sdd capacity to an electric feeder.  There is an investment, something had to get installed, etc..  That gets rolled into the proposed 'rate base'.   We file for a rate increase to cover the cost of the investment.  In our state the ICC (Illinois Commerce Commission) has rate increase hearings.  Lots of interveners show up and explain how our rates are too high, etc..  and we spent money on stuff that didn't need to be installed.  Someone on an ICC committee determines that the new distribution feeder is only 50% utilized and we should have never spent the money on improving that distribution feeder.  We explain... no we need that for the new EVs that will be plugged in over the next 10 years.   The ICC rules the money was imprudently spent and denies the rate increase.  

So... we won't do that again any time soon.  That's were most utilities are at. They can't build infrastructure for free, so they don't build any thing new, unless they know they will get a return on the investment. 

Then... we just wait until there is 'actual' EVs getting plugged in.   Or new buildings are built, or a business wants to expand their production capabilities. 

Then there is a high probability that some locations may need to wait a year (or more) for an upgrade to the distribution system before they can charge their EVs cars, or add a new building, expand their business.   And they get to pay a LOT to make this happen.   Then the new infrastructure is added to the rate base and the cycle continues.  This time the rates go up too. 

 

[Bikeguy]

5 hours ago, Dottles said:

8 hours ago, Further said:

I personally think that hybrid is the best tech at this time 

It is. If I buy another car, it most likely will be a hybrid. If you go EV, use that one for your around town stuff.  Since I already own a hybrid, my second car could be all EV -- but I doubt it. Hybrid is great. I think it needs to be repeating.  My Toyota RAV4 hybrid gets outstanding gas mileage and actually has more power than a gas only powered RAV4 and it only cost $800 more.  Why the hell would I just go all gas?  I've already made up that difference in fuel costs.

 Yeah I agree with you 100%.     Maybe in a year, I may consider trading my 2010 Subaru Forester for a Toyota RAV4 Prime, or the hybrid version.   

[Razors Edge ★]

12 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

And that's the entire problem....

The TL;DR version is "Didn't do it 30 yrs ago, didn't do it last year, won't do it in the next 30 yrs".  

But the "could do it if we chose to" option is still out there  so some places might be able to have nice things eventually.

 

[Bikeguy]

21 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

But the "could do it if we chose to" option is still out there

So.. who's going to pay for that option?    Pay now for a 'possible' benefit later.  I don't see that happening anytime soon.  

So.. like I said before... it is an interesting time to be alive and watch how this all plays out.   

One thing for sure... it will cost MORE 30 years from now.   Hopefully not a LOT more.  The way things seem to be progressing...  a lot more may be the end result.

Then again in 30 years  I won't be here to care (or pay).  My daughter and grandson will get to pay those bills.

[Razors Edge ★]

3 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

So.. who's going to pay for that option?    Pay now for a 'possible' benefit later.  I don't see that happening anytime soon.  

Huh? You pay for new roads - up front. You pay for new homes - up front. You pay for a new car - up front.  WE pay just like WE pay for everything. If we don't want to prioritize it, that's one choice, but it will always be us paying. No free lunches and all that.

Do we want a first world economy? Well, it requires first world infrastructure.  Not paying for the grid, roads, airports, seaports, factories, schools, hospitals, fire stations, etc. NOW means that we slowly and steadily regress rather than progress.  

[Bikeguy]

5 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Huh? You pay for new roads - up front. You pay for new homes - up front. You pay for a new car - up front.  WE pay just like WE pay for everything

That is not necessarily true for the way eclectic utility financing woks. 

Expanding an apartment building complex with utility financing. 

You build a new 100 unit building an based on your expected future needs for occupancy.  You finance most of the cost of the building, and you build the building.   Then you calculate how much you need to raise the rents for all of the existing tenants and the new tenants.  That is an additional $50 per year increase in rent for all tenants, to pay down the mortgage for the new building.   (you are required to charge the same rent to all)  You file for a rent increase the rent control board, you need to pay the mortgage.   A year after the building is built, the rent control board has hearings about the new rent.   They determine... nope  you can only charge $20 per year per tenant more.  Now you need to eat the cost of $30 per tenant (many millions of dollars), but you still need to pay the mortgage for the new building.  So you cut new projects, you still need to pay for the last one for 30 more years. 

That's not paid up front.