Jump to content

I am beginning to reconsider my stance on guns.


jsharr

Recommended Posts

I feel ya @jsharr.  I grew up in a house where guns were commonplace, but treated with respect and caution. There was a different mindset back then that is lost. The more the world has become interconnected, the more tribal they have become- fearing those around them and seeking the groups that think like them instead of learning to grow and prosper from learning about others. 

  • Heart 2
  • Awesome 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, groupw said:

I feel ya @jsharr.  I grew up in a house where guns were commonplace, but treated with respect and caution. There was a different mindset back then that is lost. The more the world has become interconnected, the more tribal they have become- fearing those around them and seeking the groups that think like them instead of learning to grow and prosper from learning about others. 

And we did not have video games to condition us to violence.  I truly feel that the internet and gaming are part of the problem, which makes the solution even harder.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, jsharr said:

And we did not have video games to condition us to violence.  I truly feel that the internet and gaming are part of the problem, which makes the solution even harder.

So…if the games are in other nations, why don’t they have the same problems?  

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, groupw said:

So…if the games are in other nations, why don’t they have the same problems?  

Stricter gun control laws for the most part I would think.   I wonder if you can go to a "gun show" and walk out with a gun and shit ton of ammo any place other than the US?   Or go to Walmart and buy ammo? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Everyday this week I have heard about a shooting at a school or near a school.   

And I am part of a program that teaches how to shoot accurately.  I have even taken training to make myself better at this.  Not sure I want to teach riflery any longer.  I have range safety officer training coming up and our April campout is our shooting sports camp out with shotguns and .22 rifles.

Not sure how to shove this genie back into his bottle, but things have got to change.  Mods and go ahead and kill this thread, as it will not end well.  Sorry for posting it.

I may be wrong but I don’t believe the demographic you work with are the ones causing problems. I’m not aware of current or former scouts shooting up schools & such.

Responsible gun ownership & range/weapon safety is a valuable skill. Since guns aren’t going away learning this skill still has value.

 

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, you could check the stats and see who is pulling the trigger and who the legal gun owners are.  Chances are, the two lists don't have much in common.  Illegal guns are here to to stay.  People that want one for nefarious use will get one.  I am with ChrisL on this.  Make storage and security the priority. 

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Well, you could check the stats and see who is pulling the trigger and who the legal gun owners are.  Chances are, the two lists don't have much in common.  Illegal guns are here to to stay.  People that want one for nefarious use will get one.  I am with ChrisL on this.  Make storage and security the priority. 

yes, the two lists are generally different.  Way too late for this, but perhaps if we didn't have 400 million guns, there wouldn't be a large supply to get in illegal hands, or be improperly stored.

And note also that the number of shootings by legal owners are still far higher in the US than anywhere else in the World.

Also note that I don't have an answer to this, taking guns away now is untenable.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, 12string said:

yes, the two lists are generally different.  Way too late for this, but perhaps if we didn't have 400 million guns, there wouldn't be a large supply to get in illegal hands, or be improperly stored.

The good news is that we're on track for 500 million in the next few years, so it should get a lot better soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, 12string said:

And note also that the number of shootings by legal owners are still far higher in the US than anywhere else in the World.

 

Yep.  It is the culture and the laws as well.  If you shoot someone in your home in self-defence in Canada, there is a very good chance you will be charged.  That is a big deterrent. 

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Stricter gun control laws for the most part I would think.   I wonder if you can go to a "gun show" and walk out with a gun and shit ton of ammo any place other than the US?   Or go to Walmart and buy ammo? 

Guns are fun!  Commonsense gun regulation would be even more fun.

I really don't see why we cannot restrict semi-automatic and military style weapons entirely, why we can't require mandatory gun insurance. lots of testing to get a license for firearms, annual renewals, pyschological evaluations when first applying for a gun permit, mandatory waiting periods to getting a gun (at least 30 days, but a year is better), etc., kinda like what you have to do to get a restricted driver's license and a car registration at least, plus the pysch evaluation.  Gun show same day purchases are pretty ridiculous, they should be illegal as all hell with stiff jail penalties for infractions.  

Americans are frickin' crazy AF, and all this would not be necessary if we weren't blasting holes in people en masse pretty much every damn day.  We have absolutely proven that we, as a people are not trustworthy, and you gotta be stupid to argue otherwise.

That said, I do like to shoot stuff, so there is that.

 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

Well, you could check the stats and see who is pulling the trigger and who the legal gun owners are.  Chances are, the two lists don't have much in common.  Illegal guns are here to to stay.  People that want one for nefarious use will get one.  I am with ChrisL on this.  Make storage and security the priority. 

All guns start out legal.  Legal gun buyers make a shit ton of money turning them into illegal guns by selling them.  
"My gun was stolen is a load of crap in most cases".  You can go to most gun shows (there are many on any given weekend and you can probably find someone there who can sell you a gun whether or not you are supposed to have one.  You will pay a lot but what the hay.  

Stop bulk buys by limiting how many guns a "legal" buyer can purchase per year and that will help.  Increase law enforcement stings of illegal gun sales and that will help.  Make any gun seller libel for any crimes committed with that gun if you can back track to the sale.  If the gun is sold many times illegally then hold all the sellers libel.

Make any crime committed with a fire arm a mandatory life sentence..  That will help.

For example, find out who allowed a 6 year old to get his hands on a fire arm and put them in jail.  That will help.

It's not an insurmountable problem.  The lobbyists involved are all after the money.  They have good propaganda.  You should be afraid of your neighbor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, jsharr said:

Stricter gun control laws for the most part I would think. 

Not sure that works very well.   I live in a state that has strict gun laws and 90 miles from a city that has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. 

After a weekend I can use the Google and search     how many shootings in chicago this weekend   and I will always see news like this. 

Chicago shootings: At least 18 shot, 4 killed in weekend gun violence across city, CPD says     Actually this was a rather quite weekend. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Bikeguy said:

Not sure that works very well.   I live in a state that has strict gun laws and 90 miles from a city that has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. 

After a weekend I can use the Google and search     how many shootings in chicago this weekend   and I will always see news like this. 

Chicago shootings: At least 18 shot, 4 killed in weekend gun violence across city, CPD says     Actually this was a rather quite weekend. 

You have to start somewhere.  Have you ever been to a gun show?  It is crazy.  I found a rifle, agreed on a price, showed my drivers license, handed him some cash, he handed me a gun.  It had a zip tie to hold the bolt open.  This was just a .22 for my son, but it could have been an AR and I could have been a felon.  Simply crazy how easy it is to buy a used gun if you want one.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

All guns start out legal.  Legal gun buyers make a shit ton of money turning them into illegal guns by selling them.  
"My gun was stolen is a load of crap in most cases".  You can go to most gun shows (there are many on any given weekend and you can probably find someone there who can sell you a gun whether or not you are supposed to have one.  You will pay a lot but what the hay.  

Stop bulk buys by limiting how many guns a "legal" buyer can purchase per year and that will help.  Increase law enforcement stings of illegal gun sales and that will help.  Make any gun seller libel for any crimes committed with that gun if you can back track to the sale.  If the gun is sold many times illegally then hold all the sellers libel.

Make any crime committed with a fire arm a mandatory life sentence..  That will help.

For example, find out who allowed a 6 year old to get his hands on a fire arm and put them in jail.  That will help.

It's not an insurmountable problem.  The lobbyists involved are all after the money.  They have good propaganda.  You should be afraid of your neighbor.

I recommend you search ghost guns and their impact on criminal activity.  Anymore many guns ending up in criminals hands were never ever “legal” but illegally manufactured & distributed. 

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ChrisL said:

I may be wrong but I don’t believe the demographic you work with are the ones causing problems. I’m not aware of current or former scouts shooting up schools & such.

Responsible gun ownership & range/weapon safety is a valuable skill. Since guns aren’t going away learning this skill still has value.

This is pretty much how I was going to reply.

I will add: Don't you dare stop teaching riflrey. That education is what teaches young people to respect guns! More of that education is what is needed. 

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, UglyBob said:

Society has less of a gun problem and more of a people problem. A gun is tool, nothing more, nothing less. Solving the current problem by getting rid of guns is like trying to solve drunk driving by getting rid of cars. The focus needs to be on the disease, not the symptoms.  

However, if you did get rid of cars you would have no drunk driver problem.  :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, groupw said:

There was a different mindset back then that is lost. The more the world has become interconnected, the more tribal they have become- fearing those around them and seeking the groups that think like them instead of learning to grow and prosper from learning about others. 

How people cope with hardship and/or failure seems to have changed over the years.  I'd suggest that most of us when we grew up learned from our failures / setbacks / etc...   

Today, there seems to be only retaliation against anyone, even if they had nothing to do with the person who is about to shot them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jsharr said:

Not sure I want to teach riflery any longer.

I would suggest the possibility that the person(s) who won't receive instruction from you may not have the opportunity to learn from anyone else, or may take a class from someone who doesn't teach as well as you do, and may accidentally hurt themselves or someone around them out of ignorance.

Teaching people how to properly handle firearms safely and respectfully imparts positive knowledge and positive behavior.  Sharing your knowledge creates a situation that makes headlines less likely, reduces the chance of accidental injury or death.  You will never know that it was your instruction and example that kept someone safe, healthy, and whole - but I think there's no question that somewhere down the line the odds are very good that it will.  But you can be sure that your instruction and example will never teach or encourage someone to use a firearm improperly.

You see, the choice to use a firearm improperly - either from ignorance or from malice - is the choice of the user, not you.  As UglyBob correctly stated, it's a people problem.  Your teaching riflery addresses any potential problems springing from ignorance or malice at the source - the person holding the firearm. Face to face, one on one, where the greatest difference can be made.

I would suggest you consider that if you're concerned about the headlines regarding 'gun violence', that teaching people riflery puts you right at the ground zero point for preventing it. 

In this world our actions can have zero impact on an outcome, or we can influence an outcome, or we can control an outcome.  Any action we take can have unintended negative consequences we could never anticipate.  That remote and highly improbable consequence should not swell into a unjustified fear so great that it freezes out the good we might do by striving forward to obtain what that good is worth to us and to others.

And so:

I would suggest to you that teaching riflery would never have a zero impact, and at the same time it certainly doesn't allow you to control what someone else decides to do.  But it does indeed offer you the worthwhile opportunity to positively influence any number of outcomes that could - and most likely will - beneficially and constructively impact people's lives in a quiet way that few others could do.

  • Heart 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, UglyBob said:

Society has less of a gun problem and more of a people problem. A gun is tool, nothing more, nothing less. Solving the current problem by getting rid of guns is like trying to solve drunk driving by getting rid of cars. The focus needs to be on the disease, not the symptoms.  

You have a bad neighbor.  He is that dumbass with a purposely loud motorcycle, and he has late parties and lots of friends like him and he doesn't give a shit that you have to get up in the morning or have an infant that needs to sleep.  He has little to lose and what he considers a whingey fuckhead next door who is giving him shit about what he considers jack shit in the noise department, or he knows he is noisy as hell and no one is gonna tell him otherwise and "You best not come to my door again, or it is the last door you are gonna see".

This guy feels an obligation to have more than one combat-style firearm and a few handguns, totally ok.  He starts throwing trash in your yard, or his dog's shit if he even bothers to pick it up.  You want him to have a gun and no regulations?  Good luck with that one, and if you have a gun, are you gonna shoot it out with him and have his friends come back for you or wife or kids if you happen to prevail?  Yes, it is an extreme example, yet on reddit, it is an every day occurrence on some subreddits

Other neighbors get pissed about street parking or garbage cans or some other stupid stuff and escalate, make bad decisions, feel powerless unless they have a gun they can use in extreme situations and most situations are looking more extreme all the time.  Drivers rage, you might not have done anything, but they think so.  Tough luck that they have a gun on them, and you are now central in their minds.  You could be in a store with a guy they turn down for a return, concealed carry is ok and something snaps and then somebody gets shot.  Or a lunatic starts waving a gun around.

I think it makes a lot of sense to make folks jump through some significant hoops and pay significant extra cash if they want guns, because people are stupid and reactionary, no other way to look at it that conflicts with that observation.  You want to make it hard to get guns.  Yeah, I know if you want a gun you can get an illegal one, but after some time it will get harder and harder to get them.

Like Ned Flanders' beatnik parents said "We tried nothin', and we are all out of ideas".  Doing nothing has made it worse.  More guns have made it worse.  Easier to get guns have made it worse.  More powerful guns have made it worse.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Have you ever been to a gun show? 

It is crazy.  I found a rifle, agreed on a price, showed my drivers license, handed him some cash, he handed me a gun.  It had a zip tie to hold the bolt open.  This was just a .22 for my son, but it could have been an AR and I could have been a felon.  Simply crazy how easy it is to buy a used gun if you want one.  

No.     Here if you buy a gun at a gun show, the seller must do a background check via the IL State Police before the sale can happen.   I get a background check every time I buy a gun. 

From the law I found;

 

3       (a-5) Any person who is not a federally licensed firearm
4   dealer and who desires to transfer or sell a firearm while that
5   person is on the grounds of a gun show must, before selling or
6   transferring the firearm, request the Illinois State Police to
7   conduct a background check on the prospective recipient of the
8   firearm in accordance with Section 3.1.

 

49 minutes ago, jsharr said:

You have to start somewhere.

That's true...   Maybe ALL sales/ transfers of guns in ALL states would need to have background checks.  Then again...  that won't stop the sale of illegal guns.  

I'd guess I could drive to Indiana and go to a gun show there and buy a semi auto rifle that's illegal to buy in IL now. 

1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

All guns start out legal.  Legal gun buyers make a shit ton of money turning them into illegal guns by selling them.  

And there you have it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

All guns start out legal.  Legal gun buyers make a shit ton of money turning them into illegal guns by selling them.  
"My gun was stolen is a load of crap in most cases".  You can go to most gun shows (there are many on any given weekend and you can probably find someone there who can sell you a gun whether or not you are supposed to have one.  You will pay a lot but what the hay.  

Stop bulk buys by limiting how many guns a "legal" buyer can purchase per year and that will help.  Increase law enforcement stings of illegal gun sales and that will help.  Make any gun seller libel for any crimes committed with that gun if you can back track to the sale.  If the gun is sold many times illegally then hold all the sellers libel.

Make any crime committed with a fire arm a mandatory life sentence..  That will help.

For example, find out who allowed a 6 year old to get his hands on a fire arm and put them in jail.  That will help.

It's not an insurmountable problem.  The lobbyists involved are all after the money.  They have good propaganda.  You should be afraid of your neighbor.

That is more I less what I am saying.  Illegal guns are here to stay, even in "gun free and friendly" Canada.  I think it is insurmountable though.  Even if you stop manufacturing and sales in the US, there are no shortage of guns that will flow through every opening in the borders.  The unsuccessful war on drugs becomes the unsuccessful war on guns.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

That is more I less what I am saying.  Illegal guns are here to stay, even in "gun free and friendly" Canada.  I think it is insurmountable though.  Even if you stop manufacturing and sales in the US, there are no shortage of guns that will flow through every opening in the borders.  The unsuccessful war on drugs becomes the unsuccessful war on guns.  

Both have a large following who just love them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If one isn't doing any wildlife hunting or protecting oneself from bears, cougars and other large wildlife in local areas and nor is one a police officer,  I still don't understand need to have gun that shoots real bullets to harm a person.

And I never will understand. 

Get a dog trained to protect you and family.  And that did sorta help for 1 serious violent attack on a work colleague's father in Metro VAncouver.  A guy invaded her father's house ...he was in his mid-70's.  He was beaten on head with a bat.  He did sustain head injuries.  The family German shepherd dog did deter the invader but unfortunately there was sufficient serious traumatic head injury.

This is why I am not against dogs in our building with owners abiding by care of common areas, etc.  A pet has to be registered with property management firm.

I  know many of you don't live in condo bldgs. but in the bldgs. where I've lived, sure people have 1-2 dogs. Very common.  In downtown VAncovuer, you see a ton of owners walking their dogs...because it's not unusual condo dwellers have a dog or cat.  No, I seldom hear owners' dogs in my bldg.

It's a more pleasant solution, security-wise and keeps owner happy with a living creature. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, shootingstar said:

If one isn't doing any wildlife hunting or protecting oneself from bears, cougars and other large wildlife in local areas and nor is one a police officer,  I still don't understand need to have gun that shoots real bullets to harm a person.

And I never will understand. 

Get a dog trained to protect you and family.  And that did sorta help for 1 serious violent attack on a work colleague's father in Metro VAncouver.  A guy invaded her father's house ...he was in his mid-70's.  He was beaten on head with a bat.  He did sustain head injuries.  The family German shepherd dog did deter the invader but unfortunately there was sufficient serious traumatic head injury.

This is why I am not against dogs in our building with owners abiding by care of common areas, etc.  A pet has to register with property management firm.

I  know many of you don't live in condo bldgs. but in the bldgs. where I've lived, sure people have 1-2 dogs. Very common. 

People, myself included, enjoy shooting.  I don't hunt but have been shooting since I was 10 years old.  It is a fun pastime much like painting is to you. Everyone is different. 

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

People, myself included, enjoy shooting.  I don't hunt but have been shooting since I was 10 years old.  It is a fun pastime much like painting is to you. Everyone is different. 

Everyone is different and shootie is expressing her failure to understand the broad appeal of guns. To an extent I agree with her. I just can’t wrap my head around our fascination with assault weapons.  Why do we love them so?

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Everyone is different and shootie is expressing her failure to understand the broad appeal of guns. To an extent I agree with her. I just can’t wrap my head around our fascination with assault weapons.  Why do we love them so?

I don't know.  I don't have one one but maybe just the awe of a powerful weapon. 

To the same degree, I can't understand why people enjoy painting.  Just different likes and dislikes.  

 

 

 

 

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

I think some gun sale laws could make a positive difference. But more training and safety courses would, too.

That's one thing I've noticed...    before I can buy a gun, our state has required background checks, and a 3 day waiting period before I can take the gun home (assuming I passed the background check), but that's it.  No other requirements. 

No safety training for handling / using a gun.  No training about the legal requirements, how to store a gun and the ammo, how to transport them, how to keep you and your family safe, when you can (or can't) use a gun for self defense, etc...  nothing..      No training about the types of possible ammo misfires that can occur at the shooting range.  

No psychological testing. etc...    Before I was promoted to a manager of a dept, I had two different 2 hour sessions with a doc to assess me.  (I passed)   Just because some people can pass a background test, doesn't mean they are not unstable.

1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

People, myself included, enjoy shooting.

Yeah....  I like it too. 

  • Heart 2
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've owned a gun, a 22 rifle all my life and have mixed feelings about gun ownership because the American character has fallen so low.

There's the problem of so many murders in the USA per capita.  I watch British BBC TV dramas and comedies and when going to America is mentioned the fear of encountering violence is often mentioned.  Baltimore, population 600,000, has 50% as many murders per year as the UK, population 60,000,000.

America's claim of "the land of the free" is losing truthfulness when most people are afraid to go out of their homes at night or to let young kids play on their own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Further said:

There are some people who prolly shouldn't own a gun.

It might be a good idea to check on this before giving them a gun.

Like we do with driving a car.

Yep. I’m someone that shouldn’t own a gun. If someone wants one though they’re easy to get; tell them what they want to hear and you own a gun. Culturally, we’re all fucked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Damn - we had all night to fix this and still stuck :(

9 hours ago, Bikeguy said:

No safety training for handling / using a gun.  No training about the legal requirements, how to store a gun and the ammo, how to transport them, how to keep you and your family safe, when you can (or can't) use a gun for self defense, etc...  nothing..      No training about the types of possible ammo misfires that can occur at the shooting range.  

No psychological testing. etc...    Before I was promoted to a manager of a dept, I had two different 2 hour sessions with a doc to assess me.  (I passed)   Just because some people can pass a background test, doesn't mean they are not unstable.

And a 0.0% of any such requirements ever being made at the federal level - so equally enforced across the land.  

I guess, from the general apathy towards having any such onerous requirements like safety training or psychological testing or background checks shows most (all?) folks are happy with the system we have. :dontknow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, UglyBob said:

Society has less of a gun problem and more of a people problem. A gun is tool, nothing more, nothing less. Solving the current problem by getting rid of guns is like trying to solve drunk driving by getting rid of cars. The focus needs to be on the disease, not the symptoms.  

 

E445177E-D5FA-48C2-8588-A028DDB01B8A.jpeg

  • Heart 2
  • Thank You 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, UglyBob said:

Society has less of a gun problem and more of a people problem. A gun is tool, nothing more, nothing less. Solving the current problem by getting rid of guns is like trying to solve drunk driving by getting rid of cars. The focus needs to be on the disease, not the symptoms.  

But to drive a car you need to take a test and carry insurance. That could be a start

  • Heart 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Chris... said:

But to drive a car you need to take a test and carry insurance. That could be a start

The problem with that argument is that driving a car is not a constitutional right. Owning a firearm is. That's like saying you have to take a test before you can vote or speak your mind in public. It would require changing the constitution and that's not going to happen.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, UglyBob said:

The problem with that argument is that driving a car is not a constitutional right. Owning a firearm is. That's like saying you have to take a test before you can vote or speak your mind in public. It would require changing the constitution and that's not going to happen.

Never forget the "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment. If it isn't well regulated, it isn't following the Constitution very well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Never forget the "well regulated" part of the 2nd Amendment. If it isn't well regulated, it isn't following the Constitution very well.

I am no constitutional expert but have read it with interest over the years.  The 2nd Amendment states the "Militia" should be well regulated, not the ownership of arms.  That part is protected as a right. 

My interpretation of the language is:  The "well regulated" militia is a statement and the arms ownership is a right. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...