Why

[Nate]

There are worse things than eating tofu. 

 

(And no, I'm not a vegetarian, although it wouldn't be an insurmountable step for me to give up meat.)

 

 ok, all tofu aside, my point is that increasingly we have our government here in the states telling us how to live

 

 

this is really the only thing I have against the modern day liberals. They want to silence any opposition, they want to tell you how to live, and in fact they are bigger bullies than the school bullies they cracked down on

[Nate]

Page Turner, on 26 Feb 2015 - 1:57 PM, said:

.

...I make a winter wheat flour pancake here, with either apples and walnuts, or blueberries (depending on the season) that would paralyze a light eater.

 

wait a second...you actually make something wholesome? 

 

how can that be possible if you really are in California?

 

this just doesn't make any sense

[SuzieQ]

 you mean like forcing everybody who doesn't think like you do to change the way they live?

No that is not what I mean.  

I don't expect everyone to think like me, and I don't expect everyone to become a vegetarian or vegan, but maybe we have to change some things about the way we live.  Ignorance is not bliss, it's just ignorance.  We should all know where our food comes from and how it is produced.  We should know and care whether or not the laundry detergent we use was tested on dogs or other animals, we should know about the chemicals in our cleaning products that are probably affecting our own health etc.  It's about being mindful and caring about our fellow man and creatures and at the very least our planet. And I know all of you here do care.

[Kzoo]

No that is not what I mean.  

I don't expect everyone to think like me, and I don't expect everyone to become a vegetarian or vegan, but maybe we have to change some things about the way we live.  Ignorance is not bliss, it's just ignorance.  We should all know where our food comes from and how it is produced.  We should know and care whether or not the laundry detergent we use was tested on dogs or other animals, we should know about the chemicals in our cleaning products that are probably affecting our own health etc.  It's about being mindful and caring about our fellow man and creatures and at the very least our planet. And I know all of you here do care.

 

Obviously in varying degrees and about varying things.

[Dirtyhip]

No that is not what I mean.  

I don't expect everyone to think like me, and I don't expect everyone to become a vegetarian or vegan, but maybe we have to change some things about the way we live.  Ignorance is not bliss, it's just ignorance.  We should all know where our food comes from and how it is produced.  We should know and care whether or not the laundry detergent we use was tested on dogs or other animals, we should know about the chemicals in our cleaning products that are probably affecting our own health etc.  It's about being mindful and caring about our fellow man and creatures and at the very least our planet. And I know all of you here do care.

 

With all due respect, to eat this way and live this way is only for the affluent people.  I can easily afford pasture beef, but I doubt many poor people could.  Many people in my county are barely getting by.  We have pretty high poverty rate in our state.  Sadly, for many people it is just about keeping their children fed and not starved.  That means factory farmed foods.

 

I use some healthy soaps and whatnot.   They are super expensive.  Cruelty free seems to be pricey.

[Nate]

Quote

 

I don't expect everyone to think like me, and I don't expect everyone to become a vegetarian or vegan, but maybe we have to change some things about the way we live.  Ignorance is not bliss, it's just ignorance.  We should all know where our food comes from and how it is produced.  We should know and care whether or not the laundry detergent we use was tested on dogs or other animals, we should know about the chemicals in our cleaning products that are probably affecting our own health etc.  It's about being mindful and caring about our fellow man and creatures and at the very least our planet. And I know all of you here do care.

 

Suze, I know we both love animals. I'm glad to hear that you don't want to force others to live in your way. I don't want to force anyone to do away with their air conditioning or to live without cell phones.

 

But why do you assume that somebody who eats meat from the grocery store is doing it out of ignorance?

 

DH has a very good point. I used to argue with Fred and mojo about this a lot during the Bush administration. Eating properly in America is a rich man's game. That's just the way it is. We have about 20 guys in the Midwest growing food for 300 million of us living in town.

 

Naturally, they have to do some things to cut corners or we'd have millions of people starving because the bugs ate 1/3 of the crops

 

this is the world we live in

 

This world is far from perfect, but it is the only one we have

 

This is why, in America, it is up to the individual to live as they see fit.

[SuzieQ]

With all due respect, to eat this way and live this way is only for the affluent people.  I can easily afford pasture beef, but I doubt many poor people could.  Many people in my county are barely getting by.  We have pretty high poverty rate in our state.  Sadly, for many people it is just about keeping their children fed and not starved.  That means factory farmed foods.

 

I use some healthy soaps and whatnot.   They are super expensive.  Cruelty free seems to be pricey.

Beans and legumes are inexpensive.  I'm sure my food bill is a lot cheaper than most people.  Using cruelty free products does not cost any more, you have to just know what you are buying.  I have an app "Cruelty Cutter" I can scan any product and immediately find out if it's cruelty free or not.

[Page Turner]

wait a second...you actually make something wholesome? 

 

how can that be possible if you really are in California?

 

this just doesn't make any sense

.

...even degenerates have to eat.

[Nate]

 

Using cruelty free products does not cost any more, you have to just know what you are buying.  I have an app "Cruelty Cutter" I can scan any product and immediately find out if it's cruelty free or not.

 

 

now you are making  a moral argument. I'm Catholic, would you like to be forced to live by the moral code I hold, too? Probably not, and I wouldn't ask that of you.

 

Again, in a free society you are free to exercise your conscience in the way that you  see fit

 

If I were to impose my Catholic morality on you, a secular Yoga teacher, would that be fair to you? of course not

 

Myself, I like to buy local and buy American. I like to spend my money with people who live in the same community as me. That isn't always possible, but I don't begrudge anyone who owns a BMW either. That was their choice to buy a German made car.

 

part of living as a free person is accepting that there will be people who wish to live in different ways and we try and give each other the freedom to do that

[Page Turner]

Beans and legumes are inexpensive.  I'm sure my food bill is a lot cheaper than most people.

.

...I am worth the price of bacon, because bacon.

[Square Wheels]

Beans and legumes are inexpensive.  I'm sure my food bill is a lot cheaper than most people.  Using cruelty free products does not cost any more, you have to just know what you are buying.  I have an app "Cruelty Cutter" I can scan any product and immediately find out if it's cruelty free or not.

 

Thanks for reminding me about that app, I just bought it.

 

If nothing else, you have at least influenced me.

[Nate]

so let me ask...please understand as someone from the 20th century who doesn't own cell phones or use "apps" for anything this seems very strange to me..

 

if you are relying on an app to make a moral decision for you....isn't there something about that that strikes you as inhuman?

 

I mean are you really being moral,. or are you just acting on what some digital algorithm tells you? I mean, that's closer to superstition than morality

 

if you really did your due diligence and were an informed consumer, I would say that you are acting in a moral way in accordance with your beliefs

 

but if you are relying on a digital algorithm...I mean I write that sort of stuff for a living and I can tell you right off that computer programs can have some very unforeseen outputs

 

so why ceed your humanism to a phone app? We are talking about a moral decision here. I just don't understand that about people these days

[SuzieQ]

now you are making  a moral argument. I'm Catholic, would you like to be forced to live by the moral code I hold, too? Probably not, and I wouldn't ask that of you.

 

Again, in a free society you are free to exercise your conscience in the way that you  see fit

 

If I were to impose my Catholic morality on you, a secular Yoga teacher, would that be fair to you? of course not

 

Myself, I like to buy local and buy American. I like to spend my money with people who live in the same community as me. That isn't always possible, but I don't begrudge anyone who owns a BMW either. That was their choice to buy a German made car.

 

part of living as a free person is accepting that there will be people who wish to live in different ways and we try and give each other the freedom to do that

I am making a human argument.  Did you know 65 000 dogs, mostly beagles are tortured in laboratories every year?  

[SuzieQ]

so let me ask...please understand as someone from the 20th century who doesn't own cell phones or use "apps" for anything this seems very strange to me..

 

if you are relying on an app to make a moral decision for you....isn't there something about that that strikes you as inhuman?

 

I mean are you really being moral,. or are you just acting on what some digital algorithm tells you? I mean, that's closer to superstition than morality

 

if you really did your due diligence and were an informed consumer, I would say that you are acting in a moral way in accordance with your beliefs

 

but if you are relying on a digital algorithm...I mean I write that sort of stuff for a living and I can tell you right off that computer programs can have some very unforeseen outputs

 

so why ceed your humanism to a phone app? We are talking about a moral decision here. I just don't understand that about people these days

I'm relying on the app to make it a little easier for me - I could go online or to the library and download or write down with pen and paper all the manufactures and products that are tested on animals.  I could make it easier for you as well, you could call me or email me, or just post here about questionable products and I could use my hand dandy app so you could make a cruelty free choice.  

[Nate]

 

I am making a human argument.  Did you know 65 000 dogs, mostly beagles are tortured in laboratories every year?  

 

I know that they test products on animals to see if they will irritate human skin and whatnot, but no, I (naturally) did not know that particular statistic. What are they tortured for?

 

I sense that we have shifted from eating meat to the consumer goods in general.

 

I had been talking about the food supply, but if its a stupid industry like cosmetics that tortures beagles, I'd be glad to help you

 

but I'll warn you right off, chances are I don't use those products anyway since I use few consumer products in the first place

 

and while we are on the subject, you realize that your digital devices use rare earth metals that are mined by children employed as slaves in Africa because rare earth metals are so poisonous, right?

[Nate]

 

or just post here about questionable products and I could use my hand dandy app so you could make a cruelty free choice.  

 

please look up rare earth metals and how they are mined

 

your handy dandy app is running on a device that was made with blood metals

[SuzieQ]

please look up rare earth metals and how they are mined

 

your handy dandy app is running on a device that was made with blood metals

I shall do that - thank you for making me aware

[Nate]

and I looked up the use of beagles in product testing

 

the coward scientists use them because they are so easy going!

 

they should at least make them do that shit to dogs that can fight back

 

I never buy cosmetics, or (prescription) drugs, or packing materials or pesticides

 

seems like if you live in the suburbs and use all the new fangled products you are probably living on the backs of tortured beagles

 

but this is one of the reasons I like to live simple like it was still 1879, but with cable TV so I can watch the Pens

[Randomguy]

please look up rare earth metals and how they are mined

 

your handy dandy app is running on a device that was made with blood metals

 

Oh, you hippies do go on...

[Nate]

Randomguy™, on 26 Feb 2015 - 3:45 PM, said:

Oh, you hippies do go on...

 

hey city boy...you got any cosmetics or packing materials in that citified apartment of yours?

[Dirtyhip]

Beans and legumes are inexpensive.  I'm sure my food bill is a lot cheaper than most people.  Using cruelty free products does not cost any more, you have to just know what you are buying.  I have an app "Cruelty Cutter" I can scan any product and immediately find out if it's cruelty free or not.

 

I agree with that, if they are vegetarians.  I was speaking if someone was not a vegetarian.  Cruelty free meat is only in the carts of the affluent.

[Dirtyhip]

I am quite certain that Biogen would be on the animal cruelty list.  I don't feel guilty about using my MS medicine.  I love the ability to be able to live my life while facing a terrible disease.  It is not rational to assume that everyone can live by these "cruelty free" standards.  We are going to have to agree to disagree about the meat eating and animal testing.  I am very thankful for having this medicine available to me.  I feel better than I have in years.

 

From Biogen Idec's website:  

 

"GETTING A MEDICINE TO MARKET: THE STEPS OF DEVELOPMENT

PRECLINICAL STUDIES

Before testing of a potential therapeutic begins in humans, laboratory and animal studies are carried out to determine safety and biological efficacy. These studies provide information on potential toxicities and side effects, the amount of the product that is taken up by the target tissue, the amount of time the product stays in the body and the product's therapeutic effect."

[Square Wheels]

Almost all drugs are tested on animals.  Most drugs have a LD50, lethal dose at which 50% of test subjects (animal) die.  Then there is the Draize eye test, commonly performed on rabbits.  So they might take oven cleaner and spray it in a rabbit eye to determine what damage may be caused.

 

I think we treat a lot of animals poorly and I feel guilty being ignorant of it, but I'm also not strong enough to change my ways.  I do try to purchase organic everything (where possible), cage free animal products and now I have the app SQ recommended.

[SuzieQ]

I am quite certain that Biogen would be on the animal cruelty list.  I don't feel guilty about using my MS medicine.  I love the ability to be able to live my life while facing a terrible disease.  It is not rational to assume that everyone can live by these "cruelty free" standards.  We are going to have to agree to disagree about the meat eating and animal testing.  I am very thankful for having this medicine available to me.  I feel better than I have in years.

 

From Biogen Idec's website:  

 

"GETTING A MEDICINE TO MARKET: THE STEPS OF DEVELOPMENT

PRECLINICAL STUDIES

Before testing of a potential therapeutic begins in humans, laboratory and animal studies are carried out to determine safety and biological efficacy. These studies provide information on potential toxicities and side effects, the amount of the product that is taken up by the target tissue, the amount of time the product stays in the body and the product's therapeutic effect."

 

I am talking more about cosmetics and daily household products, I would not want you to give up your drugs.  

[Former member]

now you are making a moral argument. I'm Catholic, would you like to be forced to live by the moral code I hold, too? Probably not, and I wouldn't ask that of you.

Again, in a free society you are free to exercise your conscience in the way that you see fit

If I were to impose my Catholic morality on you, a secular Yoga teacher, would that be fair to you? of course not

Myself, I like to buy local and buy American. I like to spend my money with people who live in the same community as me. That isn't always possible, but I don't begrudge anyone who owns a BMW either. That was their choice to buy a German made car.

part of living as a free person is accepting that there will be people who wish to live in different ways and we try and give each other the freedom to do that

Who are you, and what have you done with Nate?
;)

[Destination]

I completely understand why one would not wish to buy a product or support a company which uses cruel practices. That part of being an ethically-based consumer makes sense to me. Where I feel uneasy is with the sheer volume of calls to boycott, for all sorts of reasons, over the past few years. I can think of at least seven in the past year and a half. Consumer choices are seen by some as only way of making a statement for or against a corporate position.

 

The initial discussion in this thread, about going vegan or vegetarian, is another matter entirely. Such a decision involves lifestyle choices which go far beyond the cash register. 

[Dirtyhip]

I don't wear much for cosmetics,  My lotion is usually just plain coconut oil and shea...pure oil.  Some of my shampoo may be suspect.  I will look into it,

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

Nate, I would like along with SW to offer my compliments on the way you've presented your thoughts and opinions.

 

Not that I flatter myself that you need or want any approval I might offer.

 

However, I thought I should mention it because when you present yourself as you have here I find myself reading and considering your opinions and reasoning.  I suspect others may be doing so as well.

 

Again, my compliments.

[Kzoo]

Nate, I would like along with SW to offer my compliments on the way you've presented your thoughts and opinions.

 

Not that I flatter myself that you need or want any approval I might offer.

 

However, I thought I should mention it because when you present yourself as you have here I find myself reading and considering your opinions and reasoning.  I suspect others may be doing so as well.

 

Again, my compliments.

 

Bravo Thaddeus.  Well said, sir.