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Rattlecan

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Just finished building the first of what may be a large run of fat bike wheels. I think I know a bit about what it would be like to build motorcycle wheels now.

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​Have the grandkids been trained to lace those things yet RC? :)  It isn't child labour if they are learning. 

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I need more details. Make of spokes...which spokes were used on the NDS and DS.....tension......and details of the swearing when you couldn't get the correct dish on the rear.

I'm very nosy about these things.

​Spokes, DT Swiss Competition Rear 260mm left, 257 right, front 257 left, 258 right. , nipples Sapim alloy red anodized. 110kgf drive side on rear hub and brake side of front. The other side landed wherever, but there is good angle on both sides, so tension is adequate.

 The hardest part was calculating spoke length, I always measure and calculate longhand. I don't rely on (often unreliable) published data.

Simple enough though, the spoke holes are drilled 10mm from the centre line, so I just subtracted that 10mm from the CTF value. I guess it worked.

 Dishing was actually easier on the rear than the front. Didn't bring me to the point of using bad language. Radial truing was harder than normal rims, but I got'er done.

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Do they fit in a regular truing stand?

I have a Park TS2. I can fit the front wheel in the stand with the through axle in place (135mm OLD), and I have adapters for the rear (190mm OLD)

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The front is a 15mm through axle, the rear is 12mm.

 I had to put a stack of washers on the left end of the rear hub through axle to get it centred in the stand, but it worked OK.

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​Spokes, DT Swiss Competition Rear 260mm left, 257 right, front 257 left, 258 right. , nipples Sapim alloy red anodized. 110kgf drive side on rear hub and brake side of front. The other side landed wherever, but there is good angle on both sides, so tension is adequate.

 The hardest part was calculating spoke length, I always measure and calculate longhand. I don't rely on (often unreliable) published data.

Simple enough though, the spoke holes are drilled 10mm from the centre line, so I just subtracted that 10mm from the CTF value. I guess it worked.

 Dishing was actually easier on the rear than the front. Didn't bring me to the point of using bad language. Radial truing was harder than normal rims, but I got'er done.

​Good on you for calculating the spoke length the old-fashioned way. I've never built anything that wide and I'm not surprised about the truing as these rims must be extremely rigid.........quarter of a turn won't do it I imagine.

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​Good on you for calculating the spoke length the old-fashioned way. I've never built anything that wide and I'm not surprised about the truing as these rims must be extremely rigid.........quarter of a turn won't do it I imagine.

​Actually, it responds to small incremental adjustments in much the same way as a normal size rim. 

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...it's good you used alloy nipples, because I imagine weight is a real concern with those fat bike types.

​Yeah right.:lol: It's all about aesthetics. I build them for a LBS that has their own branded line. Nipples must be red doncha know.

Actually, for all the talk about how much better and stronger brass nipples are, and how much easier they are to work with, I've been building almost exclusively with alloy nipples for the last year (well over 100 wheels,) and I don't have issues. 

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​Yeah right.:lol: It's all about aesthetics. I build them for a LBS that has their own branded line. Nipples must be red doncha know.

Actually, for all the talk about how much better and stronger brass nipples are, and how much easier they are to work with, I've been building almost exclusively with alloy nipples for the last year (well over 100 wheels,) and I don't have issues. 

​I did too until one of my wheelsets ended up in the hands of a gentleman who rode them in New England winter conditions and never washed off the road salt.  I could tell that he had parked the bike for a while as many nipples on one side of each wheel failed together.  Salt water rolling down the spoke will do that.

 

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​I did too until one of my wheelsets ended up in the hands of a gentleman who rode them in New England winter conditions and never washed off the road salt.  I could tell that he had parked the bike for a while as many nipples on one side of each wheel failed together.  Salt water rolling down the spoke will do that.

 

​ I agree that alloy nipples are not a great idea for use on salted roads in winter. The anodizing may protect them somewhat, but brass is much better for this application.

 I was just commenting that I don't have issues building with them. Good quality tools and careful technique, and I hardly ever round off nipples anymore.

 The odd time when it does happen, it's because I got careless.

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​Yeah right.:lol: It's all about aesthetics. I build them for a LBS that has their own branded line. Nipples must be red doncha know.

Actually, for all the talk about how much better and stronger brass nipples are, and how much easier they are to work with, I've been building almost exclusively with alloy nipples for the last year (well over 100 wheels,) and I don't have issues. 

​Well, living in Scotland, I certainly have had problems. Good wheels using ceramic rims, completely frozen nipples which meant having to rebuild rather than simply re-truing, made them the object of hate as far as I was concerned.

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​Well, living in Scotland, I certainly have had problems. Good wheels using ceramic rims, completely frozen nipples which meant having to rebuild rather than simply re-truing, made them the object of hate as far as I was concerned.

You live in Scotland?  Suggestions for someone who was going to visit?

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​ I agree that alloy nipples are not a great idea for use on salted roads in winter. The anodizing may protect them somewhat, but brass is much better for this application.

 I was just commenting that I don't have issues building with them. Good quality tools and careful technique, and I hardly ever round off nipples anymore.

 The odd time when it does happen, it's because I got careless.

​I use quality 4 sided wrenches (unabashed park reference here), patience and before I stopped building, I provided a polar chart of spoke tension with each wheel.  I know that makes me a pure geek but I never tried to make a living at wheel building.  My standard wheels were by most standards "weird".  All were 32 spoke, radial front heads in and half radial rear, heads in on the nds and heads out 3 cross drive side.

I would like to build again with modern hubs and rims and straight pull spokes but the materials availability doesn't seem to be there at prices I can afford anymore.  Today it's cheaper for me to buy pre-made wheelsets  and rebuild them.

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​I use quality 4 sided wrenches (unabashed park reference here), patience and before I stopped building, I provided a polar chart of spoke tension with each wheel.  I know that makes me a pure geek but I never tried to make a living at wheel building.  My standard wheels were by most standards "weird".  All were 32 spoke, radial front heads in and half radial rear, heads in on the nds and heads out 3 cross drive side.

I would like to build again with modern hubs and rims and straight pull spokes but the materials availability doesn't seem to be there at prices I can afford anymore.  Today it's cheaper for me to buy pre-made wheelsets  and rebuild them.

​Custom built has a tough time competing with pre built on price, that's for sure. I have a select clientelle list that are all repeat customers, and occasionally, I pick up new customers, but the bulk of the building I do is for the aforementioned LBS (very high end) . Mostly road wheels, some disc brake cross, and now, fat bikes. 

 All the LBS wheels are carbon rims, CXRay spokes, (except the fat wheels which use DT Comps) alloy nipples. Non disc wheels are 20 spoke radial front, heads out, 24 spoke 2x rear.

Hubs and rims I deal in myself include Sturmey Archer, Formula, Curtis Odom, Velocity, among others.

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​I use quality 4 sided wrenches (unabashed park reference here), patience and before I stopped building, I provided a polar chart of spoke tension with each wheel.  I know that makes me a pure geek but I never tried to make a living at wheel building.  My standard wheels were by most standards "weird".  All were 32 spoke, radial front heads in and half radial rear, heads in on the nds and heads out 3 cross drive side.

I would like to build again with modern hubs and rims and straight pull spokes but the materials availability doesn't seem to be there at prices I can afford anymore.  Today it's cheaper for me to buy pre-made wheelsets  and rebuild them.

...that is awe inspiring in its level of pure wheel geekiness. And your experience on parts versus complete wheel packages holds true for me as well. The only way i can justify it is that, for my purposes I usually require something that is either more period correct in appearance, or specialized in OLD/rim combination.  I've been thinking about sourcing Sapim spokes for a bargain seller, because I've heard they are a better deal than DT's, but it's hard to change when you're this old.:(

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​Custom built has a tough time competing with pre built on price, that's for sure. I have a select clientelle list that are all repeat customers, and occasionally, I pick up new customers, but the bulk of the building I do is for the aforementioned LBS (very high end) . Mostly road wheels, some disc brake cross, and now, fat bikes. 

 All the LBS wheels are carbon rims, CXRay spokes, (except the fat wheels which use DT Comps) alloy nipples. Non disc wheels are 20 spoke radial front, heads out, 24 spoke 2x rear.

Hubs and rims I deal in myself include Sturmey Archer, Formula, Curtis Odom, Velocity, among others.

​...all the people I see riding those wheel sets are smack dab in the middle of the road to perdition.:mellow:

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 I provided a polar chart of spoke tension with each wheel.  I know that makes me a pure geek but I never tried to make a living at wheel building.

​I don't do tension charts, but I do shoot for even tension at the target. I have a home made calibrator to ensure accuracy.

 My Wheelsmith tensiometer is over 10 years old,and has served well through hundreds of wheels. The calibration chart it came with is still dead on for 2.0mm spokes, but the calibrator has been useful for bladed spokes for which the original calibration chart only had an approximation of the cross section, and for other lighter spokes which the calibrator shows different from the chart.

 Not wildly so, but it has changed over time. 

 Making a living at wheel building is not something I would attempt. As part of a multiple stream income, being semi retired, it works out OK.

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I costed the price of components for the last few wheels I built and found that it was much cheaper to buy Factory-built with exactly the same components. Bought the from Rosebikes, a German outfit selling at keen prices. All were true but had a few spokes wildly out of tension so they needed evening out and the tension raised to the correct level. These wheels took a lot of punishment but remained true. As I remember a set cost £85 which was amazing value and would have cost much more buying the components separately. Worth a look I think.

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​Because my wife didn't put her toys away after doing her yard work.

​Buy her some decent shears and a sheath for them.  Do you buy your bike tools at WalMart?

 

A nice pair of Felcos is a joy to use.  Made pruning fruit trees a joy.

Edited by jsharr
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You live in Scotland?  Suggestions for someone who was going to visit?

​Ah, a difficult one which does depend upon your taste and the time you have.

June seems to be the month which is usually dry here but at the moment the weather is difficult to predict. I suppose Edinburgh is not to be missed but the less fashionable Glasgow has some wonderful buildings and galleries and museums. The west coast has the most dramatic scenery and if the weather is good then the western islands are outstanding. Beware of midges though if later in the year. The north-east of Scotland is lovely too even if not so dramatic and midges are not to be found. The Borders are a neglected part of Scotland but reek of history and appeal to the cyclist as there are a multitude of small roads and tracks and traffic is much less than elsewhere.

Lastly my own region of Fife, which is worth exploring and is just over the Forth Bridge from Edinburgh. It is worth meandering along the coast from fishing village to fishing village in the East Neuk and along to St. Andrews, the home of golf. Usually I find that tourist have too little time to do the country justice and try to cover too much ground rather than spending some time in the one place and getting to know the people. In my experience it is the people who tend to feature in the lasting experiences of a country rather than the scenery, however lovely. I think that you will find the people friendly and warm,,,,,,,with the exception of Edinburgh folk that is. A sad fact but a fact nevertheless.

Edited by onbike1939
I had to insert a wee wriggly thing.
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​Buy her some decent shears and a sheath for them.  Do you buy your bike tools at WalMart?

 

A nice pair of Felcos is a joy to use.  Made pruning fruit trees a joy.

​She bought them herself, I had nothing to do with it. Couldn't tell ya where she bought them, but I'm pretty darn sure it wasn't Walmart.

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​She bought them herself, I had nothing to do with it. Couldn't tell ya where she bought them, but I'm pretty darn sure it wasn't Walmart.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/19794440?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227015540466&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40471115912&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78362826632&veh=sem

 

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I costed the price of components for the last few wheels I built and found that it was much cheaper to buy Factory-built with exactly the same components. Bought the from Rosebikes, a German outfit selling at keen prices. All were true but had a few spokes wildly out of tension so they needed evening out and the tension raised to the correct level. These wheels took a lot of punishment but remained true. As I remember a set cost £85 which was amazing value and would have cost much more buying the components separately. Worth a look I think.

​...I'm thinking about a one shot class at the co-op entitled "So you bought your new wheels online: what to do about it to make them delightful to use."

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​Ah, a difficult one which does depend upon your taste and the time you have.

June seems to be the month which is usually dry here but at the moment the weather is difficult to predict. I suppose Edinburgh is not to be missed but the less fashionable Glasgow has some wonderful buildings and galleries and museums. The west coast has the most dramatic scenery and if the weather is good then the western islands are outstanding. Beware of midges though if later in the year. The north-east of Scotland is lovely too even if not so dramatic and midges are not to be found. The Borders are a neglected part of Scotland but reek of history and appeal to the cyclist as there are a multitude of small roads and tracks and traffic is much less than elsewhere.

Lastly my own region of Fife, which is worth exploring and is just over the Forth Bridge from Edinburgh. It is worth meandering along the coast from fishing village to fishing village in the East Neuk and along to St. Andrews, the home of golf. Usually I find that tourist have too little time to do the country justice and try to cover too much ground rather than spending some time in the one place and getting to know the people. In my experience it is the people who tend to feature in the lasting experiences of a country rather than the scenery, however lovely. I think that you will find the people friendly and warm,,,,,,,with the exception of Edinburgh folk that is. A sad fact but a fact nevertheless.

​I have been to Edinburgh. My first wife was born there, and we went to visit her family in 1979.

Her aunt was a delightful lady (RIP) and her husband used to tease her that the trains would go up and down the humps over the Firth of Forth bridge. I could never quite make out if she believed that or not.

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​I have been to Edinburgh. My first wife was born there, and we went to visit her family in 1979.

Her aunt was a delightful lady (RIP) and her husband used to tease her that the trains would go up and down the humps over the Firth of Forth bridge. I could never quite make out if she believed that or not.

​I believed exactly that when I was a child. I live on the other side of the bridge from Edinburgh around a twenty minute car ride into Fife.

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​I don't do tension charts, but I do shoot for even tension at the target. I have a home made calibrator to ensure accuracy.

 My Wheelsmith tensiometer is over 10 years old,and has served well through hundreds of wheels. The calibration chart it came with is still dead on for 2.0mm spokes, but the calibrator has been useful for bladed spokes for which the original calibration chart only had an approximation of the cross section, and for other lighter spokes which the calibrator shows different from the chart.

 Not wildly so, but it has changed over time. 

 Making a living at wheel building is not something I would attempt. As part of a multiple stream income, being semi retired, it works out OK.

​The charts were interesting when presented in polar form with two data sets, 1 for each side of the wheel.  I'm not sure that they are anything other than a diversion though to play with though.

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​I don't do tension charts, but I do shoot for even tension at the target. I have a home made calibrator to ensure accuracy.

 My Wheelsmith tensiometer is over 10 years old,and has served well through hundreds of wheels. The calibration chart it came with is still dead on for 2.0mm spokes, but the calibrator has been useful for bladed spokes for which the original calibration chart only had an approximation of the cross section, and for other lighter spokes which the calibrator shows different from the chart.

 Not wildly so, but it has changed over time. 

 Making a living at wheel building is not something I would attempt. As part of a multiple stream income, being semi retired, it works out OK.

​Woah!

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