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maybe it's because your posts are so illogical that the forum censor automatically filters out the bullshit. :P

Or you can move out of your parents basement and start paying bills like the rest of society does

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This is also the reason for a person to to get an education and further their degree so they can afford to live there. FF work is a get by job, not a life supporting/raise a family job. 

Here's my point, though.

Who is going to work at a job where they actually *lose* money?  If you haven't lived in New York City (I haven't, and have only been there, but could see it), making the same wage that someone makes in a McDonald's in Ames, Iowa is going to be a losing proposition.  Losing as in, "can't get by", I'm not talking about raising a family.  Losing as in "Education?  How do you think I'm going to afford to *get* an education fool, when I have to eat and pay for basic rent and a train ticket in and out of an expensive area to get to work?

I'm not saying McDonald's or any fast food wages should be $15/hour across the board in this country.  That's ridiculous.  However, every area has a cost of living, and wages should be adjusted to at least ensure that someone can afford to get by.  Not "thrive".  Not "be wildly successful", and not even "I can buy myself a new TV if I save up for twelve months".  Get by, as in, afford to eat, afford a place to sleep, and pay their basic utilities (no, cable TV is not a basic utility, but gas, electric, some form of phone service, and the ability to launder clothes are).  And there are a few areas in the country where this does make sense, given that they are areas where the hired help can't afford to live or rent there and has to hoof it in from a distance at additional cost, and where every little expense costs a significant amount more than other areas.

P.S.  Full time jobs *are* about life support.  Not extravagance - basic life support.  That's why people are actually doing them.  And not everyone has the intellect for college; I'd love for everyone to be smart enough in this world, but not everyone has that gift.

 

Edited by LoneWolf
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Or you can move out of your parents basement and start paying bills like the rest of society does

hey asshole, I'm paying the mortgage now because my Dad's medical bills are killing them financially, while cancer is literally killing him. 

I really hope you never have to go through what my family is right now. I wouldn't wish it on an asshole like Nate. 

I'll excuse your ignorance this time. 

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Here's my point, though.

Who is going to work at a job where they actually *lose* money?  If you haven't lived in New York City (I haven't, and have only been there, but could see it), making the same wage that someone makes in a McDonald's in Ames, Iowa is going to be a losing proposition.  Losing as in, "can't get by", I'm not talking about raising a family.  Losing as in "Education?  How do you think I'm going to afford to *get* an education fool, when I have to eat and pay for basic rent and a train ticket in and out of an expensive area to get to work?

I'm not saying McDonald's or any fast food wages should be $15/hour across the board in this country.  That's ridiculous.  However, every area has a cost of living, and wages should be adjusted to at least ensure that someone can afford to get by.  Not "thrive".  Not "be wildly successful", and not even "I can buy myself a new TV if I save up for twelve months".  Get by, as in, afford to eat, afford a place to sleep, and pay their basic utilities (no, cable TV is not a basic utility, but gas, electric, some form of phone service, and the ability to launder clothes are).  And there are a few areas in the country where this does make sense, given that they are areas where the hired help can't afford to live or rent there and has to hoof it in from a distance at additional cost, and where every little expense costs a significant amount more than other areas.

P.S.  Full time jobs *are* about life support.  Not extravagance - basic life support.  That's why people are actually doing them.  And not everyone has the intellect for college; I'd love for everyone to be smart enough in this world, but not everyone has that gift.

 

thanks for saying it better than I ever could. 

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  How do you think I'm going to afford to *get* an education fool, when I have to eat and pay for basic rent and a train ticket in and out of an expensive area to get to work?

 

Respectfully, the less money/income one has the more grants and scholarships one gets.

I know because I put three very bright daughters (they took after Mrs. TK) through college.  While they did indeed get some 'merit' scholarships based upon their intelligence, some of the classmates got full - full! - scholarships even with inferior grades and fewer activities.  The reason? Their family income qualified them for the extra assistance.

That assistance included meals, all books, room, everything 'free' plus a small stipend of spending and travel money.

A very good deal, I'd say, and the wise ones took advantage of it.  They used their education as an instrument to lift themselves into a higher income level.  More, however, had not been taught self-responsibility, wasted the opportunity, flunked out, and condemned themselves to fast food jobs.

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Respectfully, the less money/income one has the more grants and scholarships one gets.

I know because I put three very bright daughters (they took after Mrs. TK) through college.  While they did indeed get some 'merit' scholarships based upon their intelligence, some of the classmates got full - full! - scholarships even with inferior grades and fewer activities.  The reason? Their family income qualified them for the extra assistance.

That assistance included meals, all books, room, everything 'free' plus a small stipend of spending and travel money.

A very good deal, I'd say, and the wise ones took advantage of it.  They used their education as an instrument to lift themselves into a higher income level.  More, however, had not been taught self-responsibility, wasted the opportunity, flunked out, and condemned themselves to fast food jobs.

what about people that don't have the mental capacity to complete higher education degrees?

the world needs ditch diggers too, you elitist asshat. 

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hey asshole, I'm paying the mortgage now because my Dad's medical bills are killing them financially, while cancer is literally killing him. 

I really hope you never have to go through what my family is right now. I wouldn't wish it on an asshole like Nate. 

I'll excuse your ignorance this time. 

First off.. There is no need for name calling you redheaded liberal junkie...(you started it)

Second.. I was only F'ing around about you living in your parents basement.. How would I know it was a true fact? 

You also have no idea the struggles others have gone through to get where they are today. I had cancer, I had gone through I months of radiation treatments where I was not working or getting paid by my two jobs I held down. I was major poverty along with my wife during that time. 

When she got a better deal working for her company , we moved out of state away from everyone we know. I picked up a job paying nothing and kept me out of town for months at a time while we had one kid to support so we could get out of debt. 

I worked hard enough without an education to be where I was when I went back to school so I did not have to take out a loan. Now I'm back to working for less then these FF works are so I can give my kids the things I never had growing up. 

My schooling still has another 3 years and I'm sure I will be working harder and for less money then a burger flipper so I can keep our house and my family healthy. 

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what about people that don't have the mental capacity to complete higher education degrees?

the world needs ditch diggers too, you elitist asshat. 

I don't think TK was insulting you --and I don't think your repayment of his comments with yours was really warranted.

Sox, I know you've gone through stuff here that some know about and some don't (some things I don't know as well), but there's no reason to up it a notch.

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First off.. There is no need for name calling you redheaded liberal junkie...(you started it)

Second.. I was only F'ing around about you living in your parents basement.. How would I know it was a true fact? 

First of all, very few people in Phoenix have a basement. 

Every time a person like you makes a comment like that, it shows how little you know.

Second, you don't know my situation. I don't care to share it with people like you.  

Some people here actually know me, and then there are people like you. 

Have a nice life Stranger. 

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I don't think TK was insulting you --and I don't think your repayment of his comments with yours was really warranted.

LW - you are correct, I wasn't insulting BSY.

Now we have yet another example of why Wilbur was so ecstatic in his post regarding the ignore function.

I must ask SW if there is a way the ignore function can be expanded so it obliterates not only posts from people one has on 'ignore' but also obliterates any quotes of their posts as well.

Ah, a message at the bottom of my screen:

Bosoxyacht has replied  Show Reply

You've chosen to ignore content by Bosoxyacht.

Perfect.

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First of all, very few people in Phoenix have a basement. 

Every time a person like you makes a comment like that, it shows how little you know.

Second, you don't know my situation. I don't care to share it with people like you.  

Some people here actually know me, and then there are people like you. 

Have a nice life Stranger. 

I never asked for your situation nor do I care... you just need to look at the bigger picture thats going on then what your little pot smoking shriveled mind wants to see... not everyone on here is attacking you, nor was I... it is how you see it vs how it really is... Ooooooo you want to see everyone make more money... that cool, but remember... this country was built on mom and pop shops that will soon be out of business unless they can jack their prices. 

People need to learn want and need if they want to survive in this world... a person working at a FF place do not need to have the latest and greatest thing... 

I will have a nice life... and consider yourself on ignore. 

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46 minutes ago, Bosoxyacht said:

what about people that don't have the mental capacity to complete higher education degrees?

 

The become ditch diggers, after they get fired from their job as bike mechanic.

I know a few ditch diggers that make dame good pay.. I guess it depends on the company you are working for, but my friend makes $20+ an hour

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I never asked for your situation nor do I care... you just need to look at the bigger picture thats going on then what your little pot smoking shriveled mind wants to see... not everyone on here is attacking you, nor was I... it is how you see it vs how it really is... Ooooooo you want to see everyone make more money... that cool, but remember... this country was built on mom and pop shops that will soon be out of business unless they can jack their prices. 

People need to learn want and need if they want to survive in this world... a person working at a FF place do not need to have the latest and greatest thing... 

I will have a nice life... and consider yourself on ignore. 

if I lose you, I lose nothing. 

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I can just imagine that he is apologizing for being a FF labour slave in hiding and portraying himself as something more. 

Not likely apologizing for anything, but check this out - you'll see the pattern anyway when people quote him:

In a discussion where a person ventures an opinion or thought contrary to one of BSY's, not more than two or three exchanges occur before he starts calling the other person names or denigrates them personally.  (i.e. "elitist azzhat")

It's as if he bases all his responses in an adversarial situation strictly on emotion - and either chooses not to, has never learned how to, or simply does not have the ability to focus on facts in a discussion to the exclusion of personalities. 

It's as sure as the dawn.

In a way it's too bad you put him on ignore, because you could easily push his buttons and confirm for yourself.

But then again, even the puppet master can grow weary and bored of making a puppet dance to his tune.

 

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Not likely apologizing for anything, but check this out - you'll see the pattern anyway when people quote him:

In a discussion where a person ventures an opinion or thought contrary to one of BSY's, not more than two or three exchanges occur before he starts calling the other person names or denigrates them personally.  (i.e. "elitist azzhat")

It's as if he bases all his responses in an adversarial situation strictly on emotion - and either chooses not to, has never learned how to, or simply does not have the ability to focus on facts in a discussion to the exclusion of personalities. 

It's as sure as the dawn.

In a way it's too bad you put him on ignore, because you could easily push his buttons and confirm for yourself.

But then again, even the puppet master can grow weary and bored of making a puppet dance to his tune.

 

Anyone can make a silly puppet dance, but who really wants to. 

Ignoring someone at times is better due to self preservation then being frustrated and entertaining childish behavioral temper tantrums.  I think it is funny how his conversations are always one sided and extremely liberal. 

I'm also going to venture to bet his parents would still drop him off at a fire station if the law didn't state an age restriction.  

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This pay is ridiculous. FF jobs are ment for new people to the work force, college students, or people that are retired. It is not ment for someone to have a long term job. 

Wrong!  FF jobs are meant for anyone with circumstances that require they take them.  Some people think that a $100K/year job is meant for poor people just starting out.  I don't know those people.

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FF workers don't get 30 paid vacation days a year, free medical for their family, free housing, and 3 meals a day..

Plus, lots of free travel and life experience.  Lots of perks to military life, especially if you were going to be poor anyway.

Edited by Randomguy™
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Ok, I stopped reading at around the tenth response, but you guys are all high, or stoned, or baked, or wired, or drunk, or something.

Poverty-wage workers cost society lots of cash in terms of public programs, crime prevention/jails, family assistance, etc.  A reasonable person would see this is certainly true, and a cost as a tax that they pay, and a significant one.  So basically, you are just a shortsighted asshole if you think current minimum wage jobs really help anyone who isn't a restaurant owner or franchiser or a business owner/corporation.

Secondly, you guys are assholes if you think 30K is a significant amount of money (for working a shit job), one that would allow someone to wallow in it for any length of time, and you are even more of an asshole if you think there are enough young people running around who are willing to fill minimum wage jobs that everyone else you are ripping on is taking.   Maybe some miserable assholes don't want to be president of jacking you off at work, and like flipping burgers, should everyone want to take the path that you arrogantly think they should take?

Thirdly, whoever said that these people who would soon be making a kind-of living wage at $15/hr aren't going to be full time people is right, the owners of the businesses will work employees enough to stay but not enough to qualify for benefits, whatever is cheaper.  Anyway, $30K is a phantom number, how many are really gonna hit that mark?

Fourth, wth is wrong with you that you are eating at a FF place, anyway, don't you know decent quality?  Maybe quit bitching and cook yourself or go to a decent restaurant, or just pony up the dough and pay another quarter for your fries and sugar-beverages, and know that you would be slightly cutting down on the misery of people clearly being taken advantage of now.

Some of you are not nice people, or smart people, in a world-view sense.

Now, it is also no one's job to be a liberal fruitcake asshole who wants to give every FF worker asswipe a golf-club membership and a mansion, either.  But should we just abolish minimum wage?  What would happen then?

Edited by Randomguy™
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hey asshole,

 

you elitist asshat. 

 

Your moron cup is overflowing. 

 

exposed as a fool. 

 

I never needed an ignore feature to block the ramblings of brain dead douchebags. 

 

and I thought you weren't a douchebag. 

 

Thanks for proving me wrong again. 

 

This place seems to be full of foolish, brain dead, elitist asshat, moronic, douchebaggy assholes.    :D

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So what did I miss by not reading the bulk of the responses?

What are you going to do with the assembly line people making about $15 an hour now.  Inflation do to your minimum wage hike is about to drive them to the floor of the employed wage earners.  Either you don't care or you expect them to get equivalent wage hikes to keep them at the same level above minimum.  If the latter, what are you going to do about the trained skilled managers currently making $20 an hour.  Either you don't care about them or you are planning on a corresponding wage increase there as well so that they will maintain their position above their workers

This can continue all the way to the top and by the time it gets there, prices will have risen so that everyone is back in the hole they started in.

Most places are currently raising their minimum wage from somewhere in the 7 or 8's to 10.  A jump to 15 in the minimum wage is a doubling of wages...........and it better be all the way up the line.

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So what did I miss by not reading the bulk of the responses?

You missed that you were demoted to dressing up like a hamburger and dancing on a street corner for 12 hour shift without a break. 

Edited by Krazy ™
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LOL, $15 an hour is very close to my wages.  :mellow:    

Hopefully, they spend more money and keep the economy rolling along strong.
 

Aside from what the federal government prints, there is only so much money people or businesses have available to spend.

If a business is forced to pay higher wages but can't raise prices enough to compensate, then something else has to give.  The theory behind the mandated wage is that businesses will raise their prices or take less profit.  If the businesses raise prices, the theory is all the customers will 'only pay a little bit' more to subsidize the mandated higher wage.  In part, that's why the wage is phased in over several years - to make the impact to the consumer less noticeable than if they phased it in all at once.

Eventually, though, all the 'little bits' add up to a punch in the nose. The little bit for the mandated wage, the little bit this year to cover the property tax increase for municipal workers' pensions, the little bit for the increase in the water/sewer rate, for the library taxing district, the local economic development authority, for the fee to buy the mandated certificate that permits your business to file its state quarterly taxes, the little bit to cover the new garbage collection fee that used to be included in your property tax bill, and etc-you-get-the-idea.

It comes to the point where too many little bits take too much and too little is left, and many people can't see where their efforts justify the results. Then two things happen: (1) They leave or (2) They quit, and soak up government benefits that 'everybody else' is getting.  Some stay in business to fill in the vacuum created by all the others leaving, which can work because with less competition they can raise prices to survive.

For a good example of this you can look at what happened to Detroit.

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Aside from what the federal government prints, there is only so much money people or businesses have available to spend.

If a business is forced to pay higher wages but can't raise prices enough to compensate, then something else has to give.  The theory behind the mandated wage is that businesses will raise their prices or take less profit.  If the businesses raise prices, the theory is all the customers will 'only pay a little bit' more to subsidize the mandated higher wage.  In part, that's why the wage is phased in over several years - to make the impact to the consumer less noticeable than if they phased it in all at once.

Eventually, though, all the 'little bits' add up to a punch in the nose. The little bit for the mandated wage, the little bit this year to cover the property tax increase for municipal workers' pensions, the little bit for the increase in the water/sewer rate, for the library taxing district, the local economic development authority, for the fee to buy the mandated certificate that permits your business to file its state quarterly taxes, the little bit to cover the new garbage collection fee that used to be included in your property tax bill, and etc-you-get-the-idea.

It comes to the point where too many little bits take too much and too little is left, and many people can't see where their efforts justify the results. Then two things happen: (1) They leave or (2) They quit, and soak up government benefits that 'everybody else' is getting.  Some stay in business to fill in the vacuum created by all the others leaving, which can work because with less competition they can raise prices to survive.

For a good example of this you can look at what happened to Detroit.

TK, I'm not going to argue the details of your post but that first sentence (with all due respect) might be the dumbest thing you have ever said here.  It implies the concept of zero-sum-gain which eliminates the concept of value add.  If the person flipping burgers or assembling lasers does not add value to the product (or service) rendered then there is no business (or reason to be in business).  By the very nature that someone would want to pay for the burger at a rate that exceeds the cost of goods plus the cost of labor ($15 for the flipper) there is value created.  Created value is calculated in dollars so - There is NOT only so much money people have to spend.  It is not dependent on the government printing more - that's just paper currency and few businesses use paper currency.

And in general terms, the government printing more money deflates the value of the money already printed.  It does nothing to increase the actual value of the dollars circulated or increase available funds to spend.

 

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TK, I'm not going to argue the details of your post but that first sentence (with all due respect) might be the dumbest thing you have ever said here.  It implies the concept of zero-sum-gain which eliminates the concept of value add.  If the person flipping burgers or assembling lasers does not add value to the product (or service) rendered then there is no business (or reason to be in business).  By the very nature that someone would want to pay for the burger at a rate that exceeds the cost of goods plus the cost of labor ($15 for the flipper) there is value created.  Created value is calculated in dollars so - There is NOT only so much money people have to spend.  It is not dependent on the government printing more - that's just paper currency and few businesses use paper currency.

And in general terms, the government printing more money deflates the value of the money already printed.  It does nothing to increase the actual value of the dollars circulated or increase available funds to spend.

 

If a burger flipper does not add sufficient value to the end product to cover the cost of the burger flipper then the business world will find another flipper or another product. Economics 101.

 

I believe what people are trying to explain is that there is not way that the price of burgers can accommodate a doubling of cost.

Edited by maddmaxx
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If a burger flipper does not add sufficient value to the end product to cover the cost of the burger flipper then the business world will find another flipper or another product.

Or find another way to reduce cost, or move the business and leave the flipper behind (remember offshoring) or go out of business because they can invest their money somewhere better, or.......

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TK, I'm not going to argue the details of your post but that first sentence (with all due respect) might be the dumbest thing you have ever said here. 

 

That would depend on your point of view.

Only the federal government, not state governments, nor banks, nor you nor I can print money to cover our increases in expenses.

Secondly, people and business operate on budgets, typically annual budgets for businesses and monthly budgets for people.  The business manager or leader is expected to meet those budgets and produce the anticipated profit.

If a business has an annual budget of $1M, and the state mandates a wage increase, the generous souls in the corporate accounting department will not issue the manager an automatic waiver to exceed the budget.  The budget stands.  Since the manager or leader can't print money, the budget is fixed, and labor costs go up then something else has to give.

Maybe the manager raises his prices - a little bit - and takes the money from his customers.  And the customers take the little bit from some other area of their budget; maybe now they don't go the the movies.  Maybe the manager cuts down on the amount of napkins he buys - and the napkin manufacturer lays somebody off as a result. 

I see it as cause and effect driven by the finite amount of money a business or person has in their budget, or on hand at any given moment.

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It seems to me that this whole discussion hinges on whether you believe in a free market and free enterprise or not.  Personally, I prefer free enterprise over government intervention. 

Agreed.  But as much as I love the free market there have been reasons, many reasons for government regulation.  Doubling minimum wages by a local government isn't one of them. 

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then $4 an hour it is.

Easy.

It is whatever the market determines it should be.  If the FF businesses don't pay enough, they won't attract any good workers and they will go out of business.  If they pay too much, they may price themselves above the competition and they may go out of business.  It is called "free market" or letting the market decide, not some bureaucrat or politician. 

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But, when I get a raise I have more money to do things with.  I tend to save extras like that, but I could go out and buy a Go Pro, if I wanted to.  It would make sense that these people would have a little more expendable cash. 

Then give them $100 per hour.  More is better.....

When you get a raise it's not given to you (that's charity).  Whoever you work for pays you that to insure that you won't go somewhere else that places a higher value on your services than you would currently make.  

When a government decides how much a worker is to be paid there is no market force that determined that value to the business and that is bad for the organization, bad for the economy and ultimately, bad for some of the workers.

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Then give them $100 per hour.  More is better.....

Well, now you are just being ridiculous.

Is this just NYC?  Not the entire state of NY, right?

I sure hope this doesn't spread across the board, because I would be bummed to make about what FF people do. Although, I do have great benefits, so there is that.

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Well, now you are just being ridiculous.

Is this just NYC?  Not the entire state of NY, right?

I sure hope this doesn't spread across the board, because I would be bummed to make about what FF people do. Although, I do have great benefits, so there is that.

And while you think $100 is ridiculous, some think that doubling the MW is ridiculous and other believe that any increase the the MW is ridiculous.  And I believe that the market should set the value of someone's hour the exact same way you determine the value of goods services when you shop at the grocery store or your LBS.  Too expensive, you don't buy it.  If others agree with you, the price goes down because of perveived value in the marketplace.  Enough of that and we have a closeout sale (or a layoff)

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And while you think $100 is ridiculous, some think that doubling the MW is ridiculous and other believe that any increase the the MW is ridiculous.  And I believe that the market should set the value of someone's hour the exact same way you determine the value of goods services when you shop at the grocery store or your LBS.  Too expensive, you don't buy it.  If others agree with you, the price goes down because of perveived value in the marketplace.  Enough of that and we have a closeout sale (or a layoff)

I agree.  I just wanted to say something positive about what may come from the situation.  

IMHO, I think that the market should determine wage and prices. 

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