Question for wheelbuilders

[maddmaxx ★]

How close to the rim manufacturers specs do you get with spoke tension?  Back when I was building my own wheels I favored building with the highest tension I could get away with as anything less seemed to result in "soft" wheels.  This often led to me exceeding Mavic's specs by a bit.

Then one day I measured the spoke tension after mounting a tire and was surprised by how much it dropped.  After that I took to measuring tension with an allowance for the mounted tire.

[Rattlecan ★]

14 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

How close to the rim manufacturers specs do you get with spoke tension?  Back when I was building my own wheels I favored building with the highest tension I could get away with as anything less seemed to result in "soft" wheels.  This often led to me exceeding Mavic's specs by a bit.

Then one day I measured the spoke tension after mounting a tire and was surprised by how much it dropped.  After that I took to measuring tension with an allowance for the mounted tire.

Tension specs allow for the inflated tire fudge factor. If you tension to spec with an inflated tire in place, the spokes will be over tensioned.

Also, I don't really buy into the highest tension possible theory. I build hundreds of road wheels a year, carbon fiber rims, mostly 24 spoke rear and 20 spoke front.If I build with 2.0/1.8 double butted spokes, I shoot for about 120kgf drive side rear, and 110 on the front wheels. When I build with CXRays, I stop at 110 drive side rear.

 These wheels are both sold as aftermarket, and installed on new bikes as original equipment. I work part time in the shop that I build them for, and I get to service the bikes that have been running my wheels for years with no issues. They run true and are evenly tensioned after all that time.

They tell me there has NEVER been a reported case of a broken spoke on any of these wheels, and there are over a thousand of them in use today.

[maddmaxx ★]

I guess my experience is a bit older, being comprised mostly of Mavic MA2 and CXP33 rims with 32 holes built as radial fronts and half radial rears.  I no longer build for others and for myself, it's proven more economical to buy prebuilt.

[donkpow]

I wanted to comment on this but haven't built wheels for others. Mine have all been basic 32 or 36 spoke wheels. The only time I check the wheel with a fully inflated tire is to see if the tire has pulled the wheel out of true.

[Rattlecan ★]

39 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

I guess my experience is a bit older, being comprised mostly of Mavic MA2 and CXP33 rims with 32 holes built as radial fronts and half radial rears.  I no longer build for others and for myself, it's proven more economical to buy prebuilt.

What tension did you aim for with those rims? I generally aim for 100kgf and if I remember right, I think that was Mavic's recommendation. 

What tension meter did you use?

[maddmaxx ★]

3 hours ago, Rattlecan said:

What tension did you aim for with those rims? I generally aim for 100kgf and if I remember right, I think that was Mavic's recommendation. 

What tension meter did you use?

I used the Park meter.  

Radial fronts about 110 before mounting a tire.

 

[Rattlecan ★]

5 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

I used the Park meter.  

Radial fronts about 110 before mounting a tire.

 

I have not used a Park meter, but as long as it gives consistent and repeatable readings at a given tension, I don't really think a tension meter has to be uber sophisticated. I use a Wheelsmith meter, which is pretty basic, much like the Park unit, but it does give consistent, repeatable readings, and I devised a calibration fixture which makes my readings 100% reliable, so even building hundreds of wheels every year, I see no need for a fancy schmancy tension meter.

[donkpow]

I saw the pictures of your wheel building station.

[maddmaxx ★]

9 hours ago, Rattlecan said:

I have not used a Park meter, but as long as it gives consistent and repeatable readings at a given tension, I don't really think a tension meter has to be uber sophisticated. I use a Wheelsmith meter, which is pretty basic, much like the Park unit, but it does give consistent, repeatable readings, and I devised a calibration fixture which makes my readings 100% reliable, so even building hundreds of wheels every year, I see no need for a fancy schmancy tension meter.

Yes.  One of the things I learned about a meter like Parks is that it must be used in the same orientation on every spoke and as much as possible in the same location on each spoke.  I would never make a good professional wheelbuilder however as my speed was measured in days per wheel, not wheels per day.

These days I don't bother any more as an inexpensive set of Shimano RX05 wheels checked for even tension and true is the ticket for the current old man disc hybrid.

[Rattlecan ★]

3 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

 

These days I don't bother any more as an inexpensive set of Shimano RX05 wheels checked for even tension and true is the ticket for the current old man disc hybrid.

Yeah, it would be nigh on impossible to support a family as a pro wheel builder these days, but for me, it's a pretty good retirement gig.

Off the shelf wheels are inexpensive, and fill the bill for most people. 

There will always be those who want the prestige of a custom hand built wheel, but there are hardly enough to build a business on.

I was fortunate to get hooked up with a local high end road shop that has their own branded bike line, and a complimentary components and accessory line. They've done a pretty good job of getting their brand out there on the local scene, and now expanding into online sales. A lot of the wheels I build are sold on new bikes as original equipment, but many are sold aftermarket.

[Ralphie ★]

I like it when you guys talk wheels.

My only requirement is round and troublefree.

 

[donkpow]

3 hours ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

I like it when you guys talk wheels.

My only requirement is round and troublefree.

 

Emphasis on troublefree. I find inexpensive factory wheels are poorly built and need to be massaged into usable condition.

[Page Turner]

...a lot of the issues that required pretty high spoke tensions for a durable wheel became less important as rim manufacturing technology became capable of producing something that is stiff enough to stay round without high tensions.  But when I repair or retension old crap rims for semi-authentic period restorations, I ususally pull them up pretty tight, a la Jobst Brandt.

 

You can't really expect a set of Fiamme's to last long under my weight without something approaching 120-125 kgf on the drive side rear.  At least that's been my personal experience.

 

Also, they seem to give a snappier ride with higher tensions, but that might be placebo effect.