Jump to content

What the Health


Square Wheels

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

Well shit!  There is starting to be little left to eat!

Where's the beef?

Legumes are seeds and are spread by animal ingestion.  They are tolerant of the digestion process which makes them a natural inflammatory.   This is why immunologists suggest avoidance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

I heard that eating animal products could lead to inflammatory diseases, hypertension and cardiovascular disease.  Even if none of this is true, I get all of the nutrition (definitely a lot more) than if I ate an animal based diet, so there is no loss for me.  If even 1/4 of what vegans claim is true, I will be significantly healthier than the average person.

One problem is that "animal products" are virtually indistinguishable from "vegan products" as a category, health-wise.  Bacon is an animal product, just as twinkies are a vegan product.  Both processed crap nutritionally, so we really have to cut the crap from our arguments.   Also, you simply have to stop calling any diet with meat in it a 'meat based diet, that is just not a smart or a reasonable way to frame it.  If you frame things that way, you are just looking at black and white thinking, and is that ever productive?

We also have to separate the 'could' from the 'does'.  Meat 'could' lead to disease, and 'does' have vitamins that are nearly impossible to get in profusion unless you eat it, the lack of which does directly cause health problems.  So what are you going to do, avoid a possible cause to incur a probable deficit that will cause what you are trying to avoid?  How is one better than the other?   

How can you say the average American diet is unhealthy and attribute that to meat, rather than the whole host of other crap in there?  A healthy omnivore diet is way healthier than a vegan junk food diet, and a healthy vegan diet is way better than a spam and potato chip diet.  Broad categories may be easy short term identifiers if they add up, but all our definitions are open to interpretation, and the vegan or 'meat based diet' groupings are overly broad to be of much use from a health perspective.

The best thing that I see from many of the folks here is that they identify what is healthier for them and trend toward that while moderating other things that seem detrimental when mass-consumed.  Like Wilbur and others here point out, moderation and self-control are key, and they are the hardest thing to keep in check.  I wish I could.  Anyway, it is best to keep looking for evidence rather than conjecture or complete identification with one faction that wants to do your thinking for you.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

My immunologist and tons of medical reading.   I am a lifetime allergy/asthma sufferer and legumes are a no-no for me. 

I have problems with beans, too, but I try to sneak them in in small quantities in salads so they don't cause massive problems with digestive inflammation.  Lots of stuff out there about the inflammatory components of them, though.  Sorry Ralph!

  • Heart 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Epistemology is a great subject, i.e. How do we know things?  It seems to me that too many people use credentials as a license to make shit up, i.e. diet doctors. You would think science would lead to more  cut and dried answers, but instead it is seemingly contradictory studies.

So even when someone cites good scientific studies there always seems to be a directly contradictory one oot there.  But when people just say shit, the alarms go off.  Life is devilishly complex!

  • Awesome 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

I have problems with beans, too, but I try to sneak them in in small quantities in salads so they don't cause massive problems with digestive inflammation.  Lots of stuff out there about the inflammatory components of them, though.  Sorry Ralph!

The fist time I had black bean soup I loved it and gobbled up a HUGE bowl. Sadly this was on the road, and aboot an hour later all hell broke loose! So ever since then I have been very careful and moderate with black beans. :D

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

The best thing that I see from many of the folks here is that they identify what is healthier for them and trend toward that while moderating other things that seem detrimental when mass-consumed.  Like Wilbur and others here point out, moderation and self-control are key, and they are the hardest thing to keep in check.  I wish I could.  Anyway, it is best to keep looking for evidence rather than conjecture or complete identification with one faction that wants to do your thinking for you.

Excellent summation.   2thumbsup3.gif.d38dc2514a74828a227975c674e39257.gif

  • Heart 1
  • Awesome 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

The fist time I had black bean soup I loved it and gobbled up a HUGE bowl. Sadly this was on the road, and aboot an hour later all hell broke loose! So ever since then I have been very careful and moderate with black beans. :D

I used to tolerate beans very well and they were a big part of my diet.  If tolerated, they are a wonderful food with lots of nutrients, especially protein and calcium.

Lately, however, I have had to cut back.  Only one bowl of beans at a time for me now.  :(

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Road Runner said:

I used to tolerate beans very well and they were a big part of my diet.  If tolerated, they are a wonderful food with lots of nutrients, especially protein and calcium.

Lately, however, I have had to cut back.  Only one bowl of beans at a time for me now.  :(

I've got a jar of my mother's canned green beans on deck to eat. They are goood!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

One problem is that "animal products" are virtually indistinguishable from "vegan products" as a category, health-wise.  Bacon is an animal product, just as twinkies are a vegan product.  Both processed crap nutritionally, so we really have to cut the crap from our arguments.   Also, you simply have to stop calling any diet with meat in it a 'meat based diet, that is just not a smart or a reasonable way to frame it.  If you frame things that way, you are just looking at black and white thinking, and is that ever productive?

We also have to separate the 'could' from the 'does'.  Meat 'could' lead to disease, and 'does' have vitamins that are nearly impossible to get in profusion unless you eat it, the lack of which does directly cause health problems.  So what are you going to do, avoid a possible cause to incur a probable deficit that will cause what you are trying to avoid?  How is one better than the other?   

How can you say the average American diet is unhealthy and attribute that to meat, rather than the whole host of other crap in there?  A healthy omnivore diet is way healthier than a vegan junk food diet, and a healthy vegan diet is way better than a spam and potato chip diet.  Broad categories may be easy short term identifiers if they add up, but all our definitions are open to interpretation, and the vegan or 'meat based diet' groupings are overly broad to be of much use from a health perspective.

The best thing that I see from many of the folks here is that they identify what is healthier for them and trend toward that while moderating other things that seem detrimental when mass-consumed.  Like Wilbur and others here point out, moderation and self-control are key, and they are the hardest thing to keep in check.  I wish I could.  Anyway, it is best to keep looking for evidence rather than conjecture or complete identification with one faction that wants to do your thinking for you.

 

I always think we should make more use of Venn diagrams, so the intersection of healthy and vegan might only be some small portion of the vegan spectrum, etc.

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Square Wheels said:

I agree there were a few parts of the show that seemed radical and unbelievable, but overall, I heard that eating animal products could lead to inflammatory diseases, hypertension and cardiovascular disease.  Even if none of this is true, I get all of the nutrition (definitely a lot more) than if I ate an animal based diet, so there is no loss for me.  If even 1/4 of what vegans claim is true, I will be significantly healthier than the average person.

Speaking of the average person, have you looked at people today?  Take a walk in the mall, the grocery store, the bank, on TV, pretty much anywhere.  So many people are huge, none of them look happy.  They look miserable just trying to get around.  I will not go back to being that.  Plus many are on meds.  You're overweight?  Here, take these diabetes, high blood pressure, stattns, gout, arthritis and so many other drugs.  Don't actually do anything to lessen the effect of your self induced disease, just take meds with many side effects and all is well.  What, the side effects are bothering (killing) you, here, take these...

Off to the basement to ride for an hour and a half, I hope I don't die being as malnourished as I am.  :)

I hate to see you get so wrought up about the average person.  Nicer when you emphasize the positives in your life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When the gluten free fad started a while ago, I heard an interview with a doctor. They said it wasn't the gluten free diet that was helping people lose weight as much as they were paying better attention to what they were eating. They had eaten crap. That's how they became overweight. Once they started eating better, they lost weight. 

The article I linked mentioned the same thing from a doctor. For a lot of players going vegan, it was as much about cleaning up their diet as anything else. 

They say Michael Jordan ate a steak before games. Kyrie Irving is vegan. Two players achieving at the highest level doing it in opposing ways.

  • Awesome 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dennis said:

They said it wasn't the gluten free diet that was helping people lose weight as much as they were paying better attention to what they were eating. They had eaten crap. That's how they became overweight. Once they started eating better, they lost weight.

  yes 

You don't have to eat less you just have to eat smarter.

 

 

 

  • Heart 1
  • Awesome 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:
7 hours ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

Epistemology

Bravo, Ralph!  :nodhead:

Now there's a word that's rarely seen and infrequently used, but well worth the time to look up an understand not only its definition, but the concepts it represents

I thought that was the incision the doctor’s made to make it easier to deliver a baby? :scratchhead:

  • Awesome 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Oreos are vegan. But don't double down on claiming Twinkies are vegan.

Tom

I thought they were, but I guess they buy whatever fat is cheapest and they apparently found that eggs are cheaper than chemicals, too.  If you are eating twinkies, it probably doesn't matter anyway.  I am gonna guess they are equally deadly.

INGREDIENTS

enriched bleached wheat flour (flour, reduced iron, "b" vitamins (niacin, thiamine mononitrate (b1), riboflavin (b2), folic acid)), water, sugar, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated vegetable and/or animal shortening (soybean, cottonseed and/or canola oil, beef fat), whole eggs, dextrose, contains 2% or less of: soy lecithin, leavenings (sodium acid pyrophosphate, baking soda, cornstarch, and monocalcium phosphate), whey, modified corn starch, glucose, soy flour, salt, mono and diglycerides, cellulose gum, cornstarch, sodium stearoyl lactylate, natural and artificial flavor, sorbic acid (to retain freshness), polysorbate 60, soy protein isolate, calcium and sodium caseinate, yellow 5, red 40.

Oreos:

INGREDIENTS

SUGAR, UNBLEACHED ENRICHED FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, NIACIN, REDUCED IRON, THIAMINE MONONITRATE {VITAMIN B1}, RIBOFLAVIN {VITAMIN B2}, FOLIC ACID), PALM AND/OR CANOLA OIL, COCOA (PROCESSED WITH ALKALI), HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, LEAVENING (BAKING SODA AND/OR CALCIUM PHOSPHATE), CORNSTARCH, SALT, SOY LECITHIN, VANILLIN (AN ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR), CHOCOLATE.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

enriched bleached wheat flour (flour, reduced iron, "b" vitamins (niacin, thiamine mononitrate (b1), riboflavin (b2), folic acid)), water, sugar, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated vegetable and/or animal shortening (soybean, cottonseed and/or canola oil, beef fat), whole eggs, dextrose, contains 2% or less of: soy lecithin, leavenings (sodium acid pyrophosphate, baking soda, cornstarch, and monocalcium phosphate), whey, modified corn starch, glucose, soy flour, salt, mono and diglycerides, cellulose gum, cornstarch, sodium stearoyl lactylate, natural and artificial flavor, sorbic acid (to retain freshness), polysorbate 60, soy protein isolate, calcium and sodium caseinate, yellow 5, red 40.

Gotta love "and/or" in an ingredients list.  Like you wrote, whatever fat is cheapest :(  

We used to have a food scientist/chemist over on the LF. Maybe she could have explained some of the rest of that list of ingredients.

Tom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

.

INGREDIENTS

enriched bleached wheat flour (flour, reduced iron, "b" vitamins (niacin, thiamine mononitrate (b1), riboflavin (b2), folic acid)), water, sugar, corn syrup, high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated vegetable and/or animal shortening (soybean, cottonseed and/or canola oil, beef fat), whole eggs, dextrose, contains 2% or less of: soy lecithin, leavenings (sodium acid pyrophosphate, baking soda, cornstarch, and monocalcium phosphate), whey, modified corn starch, glucose, soy flour, salt, mono and diglycerides, cellulose gum, cornstarch, sodium stearoyl lactylate, natural and artificial flavor, sorbic acid (to retain freshness), polysorbate 60, soy protein isolate, calcium and sodium caseinate, yellow 5, red 40.

Oreos:

INGREDIENTS

SUGAR, UNBLEACHED ENRICHED FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, NIACIN, REDUCED IRON, THIAMINE MONONITRATE {VITAMIN B1}, RIBOFLAVIN {VITAMIN B2}, FOLIC ACID), PALM AND/OR CANOLA OIL, COCOA (PROCESSED WITH ALKALI), HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, LEAVENING (BAKING SODA AND/OR CALCIUM PHOSPHATE), CORNSTARCH, SALT, SOY LECITHIN, VANILLIN (AN ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR), CHOCOLATE.

And this is why I try to do as much clean eating as possible.

If it has chemicals I can't pronounce or know what they are I try to stay away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BR46 said:

And this is why I try to do as much clean eating as possible.

If it has chemicals I can't pronounce or know what they are I try to stay away.

Keep in mind,  rarely do companies mention the various fertilizers or the drug regimens that are parts of "modern" food production.

Tom

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Gotta love "and/or" in an ingredients list.  Like you wrote, whatever fat is cheapest :(  

We used to have a food scientist/chemist over on the LF. Maybe she could have explained some of the rest of that list of ingredients.

Tom

I love the "Village People" effect. :D

  • Heart 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...
  • 3 years later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...