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So there was a Valentines Day Massacre.


Wilbur

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I’ll try not to get it moved to P&R. Everyone wants to point fingers at gun ownership or mental health. Both have been around our entire history. So why now? What is triggering all the attacks? We need to focus on what is causing the fear and anger and try to diffuse things there. 

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5 minutes ago, groupw said:

I’ll try not to get it moved to P&R. Everyone wants to point fingers at gun ownership or mental health. Both have been around our entire history. So why now? What is triggering all the attacks? We need to focus on what is causing the fear and anger and try to diffuse things there. 

People are losing hope.  

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In my job, I go into many businesses and homes. This is strictly anecdotal, but I find the more I hear talk radio or politically leaning news channels on the TV, the more angry and fearful the personalities of my clients. It seems the more they listen, the more it feeds on itself. 

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1 hour ago, groupw said:

I’ll try not to get it moved to P&R. Everyone wants to point fingers at gun ownership or mental health. Both have been around our entire history. So why now? What is triggering all the attacks? We need to focus on what is causing the fear and anger and try to diffuse things there. 

...I don't care if it gets moved, so I'll just lay it out for you.

 

What's different is that any asshole with 500 bucks in the United States can now buy enough firepower to kill 20 or 50 people in short order, and he doesn't need a particularly high level of skill to do it.

That's what's different, and it's not all that hard to figure out what's wrong with that scenario and what it would take to change it.

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4 hours ago, Page Turner said:

...I don't care if it gets moved, so I'll just lay it out for you.

 

What's different is that any asshole with 500 bucks in the United States can now buy enough firepower to kill 20 or 50 people in short order, and he doesn't need a particularly high level of skill to do it.

That's what's different, and it's not all that hard to figure out what's wrong with that scenario and what it would take to change it.

Damn hippie, communist, liberal, bike riding, Californian, pension grabbing, ex government worker.

 

 

The above statement used to point out the toxic political environment we live in.  It's not difficult to see the short jump from there to "bang" your dead.

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So sad and senseless. Personally, this is the horror of my nightmares and I didn’t get much sleep last night. Pulling a fire alarm to move masses of people in full halls. Then open fire. I can’t find a scenario where I can keep kids safe if this happens. 

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8 hours ago, Wilbur said:

:(  18 to buy an assault rifle?  Insane.

Same age to be asked to use the same weapon to defend a nation.

i personally don’t see the need to own an assault type weapon, but that weapon didn’t cause this persons mental illness that led him to do this. 

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36 minutes ago, Zackny said:

Same age to be asked to use the same weapon to defend a nation.

i personally don’t see the need to own an assault type weapon, but that weapon didn’t cause this persons mental illness that led him to do this. 

I know, and my hammer doesn't build a house. 

edit:  Why is the hand gun ownership age 21 while the Assault rifle age is 18?  

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15 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Lets look at the fire power of the Mirage shooter.  Had he been there having maybe 5 shots per rifle, would he still have picked off as many concert goers?  I highly doubt it.  Sorry guys, weapons designed to kill masses, kill masses. 

But not on their own. It still takes a human to squeeze a trigger or steer a vehicle or an airplane. Until we figure out how to address the person issues we will deal with these tragedies again and again. 

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28 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Lets look at the fire power of the Mirage shooter.  Had he been there having maybe 5 shots per rifle, would he still have picked off as many concert goers?  I highly doubt it.  Sorry guys, weapons designed to kill masses, kill masses. 

Absolutely.  Minimal practice with mag changes and multiple loaded magazines would accomplish the same thing.  

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1 hour ago, Wilbur said:

Gun fans and non-fans will never see eye to eye on this.  Two completely different mind sets. 

This is the truth, Wilbur, I've witnessed it many times, mostly in the LF. So now I keep my 2 sense worth and sit back and admire the wisdom of the gunners.

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We'll forgot this and move on.

This will be like cancer soon enough.  Everyone will know someone who's 5 year old was riddled with bullets.

It's sad what people have been brainwashed to believe.

Yes, I accept it is our right to carry guns, including ones that dispense insane amounts of deadly force.  I've read of people posting here of the guns they regularly carry for protection and the guns their wives carry in their purses.  I've survived almost 54 years so far and never once has the thought entered my head that I needed protection of any kind.

I suspect the founding fathers never expected the level of corruption that exists in our laws now, and the guns they were talking about... I believe those fired one lead ball at a time (with dubious accuracy) and took considerable time to reload.

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9 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

We'll forgot this and move on.

This will be like cancer soon enough.  Everyone in the US will know someone who's 5 year old was riddled with bullets.

It's sad what people have been brainwashed to believe.

FIFY.  Trust me, the Brits aren't going to know someone. The Germans aren't going to know someone. The Japanese aren't going to know someone. No other OECD nation will know anyone. Period.

Tom

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2 hours ago, Zackny said:

Same age to be asked to use the same weapon to defend a nation.

i personally don’t see the need to own an assault type weapon, but that weapon didn’t cause this persons mental illness that led him to do this. 

I don't agree.  I believe that the weapon and the crazy ability to own dozens of such along with the culture that goes with that does in fact lead to an easy escalation of crazy from just anti social to murderous.

There's more to the gun then just the piece of hardware in America.  There is a crazy over the top culture that has become too dangerous to be allowed to continue.

How to do that while still honoring the 2nd is a serious question.  The status quo cannot be allowed to continue.  We are going to need to put the brakes on unlimited ability to kill on a whim.

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1 hour ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

When a person uses a truck to mow down pedestrians, we don't question why it so easy to rent a truck or get a license.  The discussion focuses on the individual, not the means.

Yet when the gun discussion focuses on individuals that should be denied the right to own or carry firearms the same NRA culture jumps in and screams 2nd amendment's rights and "you can't infringe".  Of course we can.  We infringe on rights every day when they endanger others.

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Access to guns is the reason that the United States leads the world in mass shootings and violent crime.  We have 4% of the world population and 44% of the world's guns.  We are no more or less mentally unstable than any other country.  We do not play more or less video games.  We just have guns everywhere.

A Londoner is no more or less likely than a New York to be robbed, but the New Yorker is over 50 times more likely to be killed in the process.

I may be getting rid of my guns.  The thought has been strong on my mind.  We only have two, a 12 gauge pump shotgun and .22 semi auto rilfe.  We only use them for target shooting and they stay under lock and key.

Until the US drastically changes gun control laws and works to aggressively remove guns from the streets, the issue will remain.   I can see the first one happening, the second one not so much.

I can see very strict regulation on ammunition being one way to help reduce problem, but even then, how much.  Laws help to keep honest people honest and have little deterrent factor to the criminal mind or those with bad intent.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

 

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7 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

We are going to need to put the brakes on unlimited ability to kill on a whim.

How?  We already have laws that say you can't kill people.  How is making a law that says you can't own an assault rifle going to help?  

It is illegal to shoot someone.  It's illegal to plow into people with a moving van.  It's illegal to hijack a plane full of people and fly it into a building.  Yet all of this happens.  Simply making a law that says you can't own guns won't accomplish a damn thing.

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10 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

How?  We already have laws that say you can't kill people.  How is making a law that says you can't own an assault rifle going to help?  

It is illegal to shoot someone.  It's illegal to plow into people with a moving van.  It's illegal to hijack a plane full of people and fly it into a building.  Yet all of this happens.  Simply making a law that says you can't own guns won't accomplish a damn thing.

We do not have laws that allow a doctor to write a single note and remove your right to own a gun.  We do not have laws that state that a spouse under court restraining order for abuse must turn in all firearms and not buy more until such time as the order is lifted.

These are just examples of a host of regulations that would each make a small difference but collectively perhaps make a difference that counts.

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21 minutes ago, bikeman564™ said:

I don't understand how shootings like this happen when its a gun free zone? That means no guns. I'm confused.

Depends on how it's enforced.  My daughters school is locked at all time.  They have a police officer on site whenever there is school.  It's safer, but far from safe.  Each year for the past few years some dumbass has called in a bomb threat or threatened to bring a gun to school.  Possibly a dare from a dumbass buddy.  The boys have been expelled from school and arrested.  Life altering prank.

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36 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Access to guns is the reason that the United States leads the world in mass shootings and violent crime.  We have 4% of the world population and 44% of the world's guns.  We are no more or less mentally unstable than any other country.  We do not play more or less video games.  We just have guns everywhere.

A Londoner is no more or less likely than a New York to be robbed, but the New Yorker is over 50 times more likely to be killed in the process.

I may be getting rid of my guns.  The thought has been strong on my mind.  We only have two, a 12 gauge pump shotgun and .22 semi auto rilfe.  We only use them for target shooting and they stay under lock and key.

Until the US drastically changes gun control laws and works to aggressively remove guns from the streets, the issue will remain.   I can see the first one happening, the second one not so much.

I can see very strict regulation on ammunition being one way to help reduce problem, but even then, how much.  Laws help to keep honest people honest and have little deterrent factor to the criminal mind or those with bad intent.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html

 

Mind blowing when you look at stats graphically. 

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1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

We do not have laws that allow a doctor to write a single note and remove your right to own a gun.  We do not have laws that state that a spouse under court restraining order for abuse must turn in all firearms and not buy more until such time as the order is lifted.

These are just examples of a host of regulations that would each make a small difference but collectively perhaps make a difference that counts.

How would the two laws you mention above matter?  You can take away my right to own a gun today and I could have a gun tomorrow.  When I bought the .22 rifle, I walked into the gun show, saw the rifle, walked to the cash machine, got five crisp $20s, walked back to the booth, handed the guy the cash, showed I was of legal age and walked out the door with a semi auto .22 rile and three 20 round magazines.   

They did not check a computer to see if my doctor said I was crazy or if the wife and I were on the outs.  They took my cash and gave me a gun and it was legal.

 

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7 minutes ago, jsharr said:

They did not check a computer to see if my doctor said I was crazy or if the wife and I were on the outs.  They took my cash and gave me a gun and it was legal.

 

We do all that in Canada.  Any psych background or recent job loss, divorce etc will ban you from the legal ability to own a gun. 

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Just now, Wilbur said:

We do all that in Canada.  Any psych background or recent job loss, divorce etc will ban you from the legal ability to own a gun. 

but what about person to person sales?  How is that enforced?  I went to a gun show and you could buy, sell or trade private party to private party with no background check.  Not sure how you can ever put the horse back in the barn when there are tens of millions of horses loose.

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1 minute ago, jsharr said:

but what about person to person sales?  How is that enforced?  I went to a gun show and you could buy, sell or trade private party to private party with no background check.  Not sure how you can ever put the horse back in the barn when there are tens of millions of horses loose.

Well, therein lies the problem.  In the US, the horse is out of the barn. Enforcement is primarily through registration of the weapon and licence to acquire and possess of the individuals. 

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/sell-vendre-eng.htm

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‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

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PARKLAND, FL—In the hours following a violent rampage in Florida in which a lone attacker killed 17 individuals and seriously injured over a dozen others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Wednesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said Indiana resident Harold Turner, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this individual from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what they really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past eight years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”

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2 hours ago, Parr8hed said:

Serious question, what do you propose we do to change it?

How?  We already have laws that say you can't kill people.  How is making a law that says you can't own an assault rifle going to help?  

It is illegal to shoot someone.  It's illegal to plow into people with a moving van.  It's illegal to hijack a plane full of people and fly it into a building.  Yet all of this happens.  Simply making a law that says you can't own guns won't accomplish a damn thing.

 

...you should never ask questions to which you don't really want to listen to all the answers.  My ol' pappy taught me that one.:)

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