So there was a Valentines Day Massacre.

[Kzoo]

1 minute ago, 12string said:

OK, then you're absolutely wrong.  That was easy  

And to clarify another discussion point, there are about 6,000 death per year from illegal stimulants, meth being just one, and almost none of it comes from Sudafed since the laws were strengthened (see how that works).  Compared to 33,000 gun deaths.

I'm allowed to be wrong.  And if I am, that does not automatically make you right.  If there was a easy answer we would not be having this discussion.  Now to clarify another discussion point (to coin a term), while I agree with your stimulant numbers you are not nearly as specific with your gun deaths.  I agree with your gun deaths number.  What you failed to clarify is that includes accidents and suicides and murders.

And Sudafed is just one of the brand names involved.  None are available over the counter.

 

[Ltdskilz]

Reminds me of the Robin Williams skit panning Utah during its Winter Olympics for calling Donnie and Marie "Utah's favorite couple." He said, "They're from Utah, not Arkansas."

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

Kzoo, if I may offer a suggestion - I think you may be being baited, and not by 12string either. 

If we can keep the discussion from becoming personal, or refrain from responding to personal remarks, then we provide ourselves a greater chance of keeping the discussion here vs. a move to P&R.

For my part, when I see someone making a discussion personal, I tend to believe the person has fired their full barrel of their facts.  Having nothing left, and not willing expend the effort to find more, reason and logic are abandoned in resorting to the easier route of responding through  emotions.

[Kzoo]

2 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

Kzoo, if I may offer a suggestion - I think you may be being baited, and not by 12string either. 

Thanks @Thaddeus Kosciuszko and you are right on all counts.  And I never thought I was being baited by @12string.  He and I have a general disagreement but his discussion points are on point.  We just disagree on a solution.  Actually I have not mentioned a solution just that I believe that laws and more laws are not the answer.

This great nation has had personal gun ownership for over 200 years.  Many of those years semi-auto firearms were readily available.  Mass shooting have been going on in this country for about 25 years.  Something changed. Not the guns - bullets go in - bullets come out.  The AVERAGE gun owner has not changed.  He goes to the shooting range or his deer stand or the back forty with his beagle.  Something else has changed.

And have you ever noticed that there are no mass shootings at the gun range but in the 'safe zone' nothing is safe.  And have you ever noticed that the crimes that were stopped because of responsible gun use are never talked about.

And @Thaddeus Kosciuszko as you mentioned earlier, which other amendments need to be struck down at the same time?

Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.  BF

Something has changed.

[12string]

1 hour ago, Kzoo said:

I'm allowed to be wrong.  And if I am, that does not automatically make you right.  If there was a easy answer we would not be having this discussion.  Now to clarify another discussion point (to coin a term), while I agree with your stimulant numbers you are not nearly as specific with your gun deaths.  I agree with your gun deaths number.  What you failed to clarify is that includes accidents and suicides and murders.

And Sudafed is just one of the brand names involved.  None are available over the counter.

 

I'm not claiming to be automatically right, just presenting my suggestion for what I believe can be done.  I don't want all guns taken away, I just want far fewer in circulation to be acquired for illicit acts.

As for the death total comparison, in this case, you do need to count suicide and accidental deaths from guns.  That's pretty much all of the stimulant deaths.  (My numbers did include all brands, meth is nearly 100% Mexican now)

[Page Turner]

2 hours ago, Kzoo said:

And yet we still allow people to drive cars, smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol. 

 

Cause of death (Data from 2015 unless otherwise noted)	Number
All Causes	2,712,630
Major Cardiovascular Diseases [MCD]	832,024
Diseases of Heart [subset of MCD]	633,842
Cerebrovascular Diseases [subset of MCD]	140,323
Malignant Neoplasms [Cancer]	595,930
Deaths Attributed to Tobacco Smoking (Each year from 2005 through 2009)1	480,320
Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases	155,041
Accidents (Unintentional Injuries) [Total]	146,571
Motor Vehicle Accidents [subset of Total Accidents]	37,757
Alzheimer's Disease	110,561
Diabetes Mellitus	79,535
Influenza and Pneumonia	57,062
Drug-Induced Deaths2	55,403
Nephritis, Nephrotic Syndrome and Nephrosis	49,959
Intentional Self-Harm (Suicide)	44,193
Septicemia	40,773
Chronic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis	40,326
Alcoholic Liver Disease [subset of Chronic Liver Disease]	21,028
Injury by Firearms	36,252
Alcohol-Induced Deaths	33,171
Parkinson's Disease	27,972
Pneumonitis Due to Solids and Liquids	19,803
Homicide	17,793

...classic.  "Once we cure cancer, then we can go after them gunz."  *ptooo*

[maddmaxx ★]

2 hours ago, Ltdskilz said:

Um, yes we do.

Could you link that?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jsharr said:

it will make it harder for the everyday person to get it.  You will have to know someone.  As it stands now, it is easier to get ammo than Sudafed at Walmart.

It’s easier to get an eightball of coke or a bundle of smack, then it is to get sudafed. As long as there is a market it will be available and people will get it. You may keep the honest people, honest, but those probably aren’t the ones to be worried about.

[maddmaxx ★]

3 minutes ago, Zackny said:

It’s easier to get an eightball of coke or a bundle of smack, then it is to get sudafed. As long as there is a market it will be available and people will get it. You may keep the honest people, honest, but those probably aren’t the ones to be worried about.

Better it be illegal than legal if it comes to that.

[Page Turner]

...*cough...cough*  *ahem* 

 

If it is made illegal to manufacture a certain category of lethal weapon and/or accoutrements like magazines of high capacity, and the sales of them are proscribed, we can probably worry less about some kid driving recklessly in the parking lot of the school, coked out of his mind on pseudo-ephedrine.

I asked the magic 8-ball just now, and it said there's a very good chance the death counts in these mass shooting incidents would decline.

 

Sadly, there will still be some students who die at a young age from cancer.  That's probably a good reason not to do anything.

 

 

[Ltdskilz]

30 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Could you link that?

Sure. Have fun.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title18-section922&num=0&edition=prelim

18 USC 922(g)(8)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/FA/htm/FA.85.htm

TX Family Code Ch.85.022

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

To continue along the line of a culture change...

Consider, please, if the major media outlets and social media were to promote the value of respecting others' lives, the virtues of exercising self-control regarding one's emotions, of seeking help before striking out at others...

at least in the same frequency and as stridently as they mention gun control, gun violence, gun legislation...

would you think we would see fewer incidents such as the one we're discussing?

Of course, it's a rhetorical question, and a purposely positioned one to illustrate a point, because it's hard to say "No, we would not see a reduction if we did this.".

The second 'of course' is the results from such an effort would be nearly impossible to measure, as how would one determine how to measure?  There would be no way to ascertain exactly what factor(s) caused any decline in massacres let alone any decline attributable to this particular effort.

Even so, I think we would see a difference.  I also think the difference would take as long to appear in our culture as it has taken for the 'decline' in our culture to manifest itself. 

I also think people look for an answer, a solution in this instant.  They are not happy with waiting for results to evolve, nor are many willing to put the effort into the mental exercise of reasoning through whether the instant solution they crave will actually solve the problem, or simply transfer it to another set of circumstances, or yield dangerous unforeseen consequences.

The outlets and social media won't shift their coverages without some sort of pressure.  The question I see is who is going to organize it, fund the effort, and keep it focused?

[Page Turner]

4 minutes ago, Thaddeus Kosciuszko said:

To continue along the line of a culture change...

Consider, please, if the major media outlets and social media were to promote the value of respecting others' lives, the virtues of exercising self-control regarding one's emotions, of seeking help before striking out at others...

at least in the same frequency and as stridently as they mention gun control, gun violence, gun legislation...

would you think we would see fewer incidents such as the one we're discussing?

Of course, it's a rhetorical question, and a purposely positioned one to illustrate a point, because it's hard to say "No, we would not see a reduction if we did this.".

The second 'of course' is the results from such an effort would be nearly impossible to measure, as how would one determine how to measure?  There would be no way to ascertain exactly what factor(s) caused any decline in massacres let alone any decline attributable to this particular effort.

Even so, I think we would see a difference.  I also think the difference would take as long to appear in our culture as it has taken for the 'decline' in our culture to manifest itself. 

I also think people look for an answer, a solution in this instant.  They are not happy with waiting for results to evolve, nor are many willing to put the effort into the mental exercise of reasoning through whether the instant solution they crave will actually solve the problem, or simply transfer it to another set of circumstances, or yield dangerous unforeseen consequences.

The outlets and social media won't shift their coverages without some sort of pressure.  The question I see is who is going to organize it, fund the effort, and keep it focused?

...sure.  You do this, and I'll concentrate on laws that prevent the manufacture and sales of certain classes of weaponry. Good luck to both of us.

[Square Wheels]

This thread is getting snarky.  The only reason iths hasn't been moved or closed is that it is a recent event and people are processing the tragedy in different ways.

Remember?  This is about children dying?  Have we forgotten that already and resorted to proving each other is wrong in their belief.

Knock off the snide comments.

[Page Turner]

5 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

This thread is getting snarky.  The only reason iths hasn't been moved or closed is that it is a recent event and people are processing the tragedy in different ways.

Remember?  This is about children dying?  Have we forgotten that already and resorted to proving each other is wrong in their belief.

Knock off the snide comments.

...why exactly would you expect this particular internet discussion with regard to mass shootings and the possibilities of addressing them through gun control to be any different than the last 50, 000 of them that have transpired in recent history.  I honestly think that if you expect that, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

 Part of the general modus operandi of the"gun enthusiast" at this point is to flood the innerweebz with the same simplistic arguments that get recycled after every shooting.

 

It's the norm for any internet discussion that involves the phrase "gun control" for as long as I can remember, and I can remember pretty far back.  It doesn't matter if it's a gun board, a bike forum, or your Facebook friends page, the gun  community long ago realized that an atmosphere of chaos surrounding this issue prevents any meaningful discussion or change in the status quo.

 

I'm out, because these internet gun discussions only waste energy.  

[Square Wheels]

2 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...why exactly would you expect this particular internet discussion with regard to mass shootings and the possibilities of addressing them through gun control to be any different than the last 50, 000 of them that have transpired in recent history.  I honestly think that if you expect that, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

I don't expect anyone to win anyone else over through a discussion here.  Up until the last couple pages the discourse had been perfectly civil.  It has degraded into I'm right your wrong.  We can keep grieving over the deaths of innocent people, mostly children, or I can close the thread.

Sandy Hook is on my mind often.  Such a waste.

[Wilbur ★]

4 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

I don't expect anyone to win anyone else over through a discussion here.  Up until the last couple pages the discourse had been perfectly civil.  It has degraded into I'm right your wrong.  We can keep grieving over the deaths of innocent people, mostly children, or I can close the thread.

Sandy Hook is on my mind often.  Such a waste.

It can be locked now.  I only bought 6 pages for the discussion anyways. 

[Wilbur ★]

I will end my contribution with a very sad statistic.  There have been 238 school shootings since Sandy Hook.  Sorry Lady Liberty, you have cancer. 

[Thaddeus Kosciuszko]

1 hour ago, Square Wheels said:

The only reason iths hasn't been moved or closed

Is it possible just to delete or remove the posts that are disrespectful?  I think the majority of the posts represent a polite discussion.  Certainly not agreement, but most I think are giving a hearing to opposite or differing points of view.

[maddmaxx ★]

2 hours ago, Ltdskilz said:

Sure. Have fun.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title18-section922&num=0&edition=prelim

18 USC 922(g)(8)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/FA/htm/FA.85.htm

TX Family Code Ch.85.022

Nope.  There is nothing in there about taking firearms away from that person and keeping them until the order is rescinded.  It is only words making it illegal to buy additional or to use those already in hand.

[Kzoo]

5 hours ago, Page Turner said:

...classic.  "Once we cure cancer, then we can go after them gunz."  *ptooo*

Sorry Page, you don’t get to put words in my mouth.  That is not what I said and not close to the context of my conversation.

Kzoo out.

[Page Turner]

8 hours ago, pedalphile said:

Otherwise, you should do what you promised and shut up.

 

8 hours ago, Kzoo said:

No

 

 

8 hours ago, Kzoo said:

And yet we still allow people to drive cars, smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol. 

 

Cause of death (Data from 2015 unless otherwise noted)	Number
All Causes	2,712,630
Major Cardiovascular Diseases [MCD]	832,024
Diseases of Heart [subset of MCD]	633,842
Cerebrovascular Diseases [subset of MCD]	140,323
Malignant Neoplasms [Cancer]	595,930
Deaths Attributed to Tobacco Smoking (Each year from 2005 through 2009)1	480,320
Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases	155,041
Accidents (Unintentional Injuries) [Total]	146,571
Motor Vehicle Accidents [subset of Total Accidents]	37,757
Alzheimer's Disease	110,561
Diabetes Mellitus	79,535
Influenza and Pneumonia	57,062
Drug-Induced Deaths2	55,403
Nephritis, Nephrotic Syndrome and Nephrosis	49,959
Intentional Self-Harm (Suicide)	44,193
Septicemia	40,773
Chronic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis	40,326
Alcoholic Liver Disease [subset of Chronic Liver Disease]	21,028
Injury by Firearms	36,252
Alcohol-Induced Deaths	33,171
Parkinson's Disease	27,972
Pneumonitis Due to Solids and Liquids	19,803
Homicide	17,793

 

5 hours ago, Page Turner said:

...classic.  "Once we cure cancer, then we can go after them gunz."  *ptooo*

 

4 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Sorry Page, you don’t get to put words in my mouth.  That is not what I said and not close to the context of my conversation.

Kzoo out.

...I'm already out.  But if you can't even follow your own argument, it's a sad commentary on this subject.

[Square Wheels]

Sadly even with warning, the jabs continue.

This thread is closed.