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Neat Stuff I Learned While Car Shopping This Week


Page Turner

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I an oscillating between the Dodge van and the Toyota van, Between new & used. And the full sized Chevy van & Ford Transit still pop up in my daydreams.

Buying a car when you want one beats the hell of buying a car when you need one. 

And I finally figured out why the Element makes me nervous on trips. The payload weight rating is 625 pounds. I'm sure we exceed that by a couple hundred pounds when loaded up for a trip. 

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22 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...I decided that the timing was about right to replace my wife's 2000 Camry (base model CE) with about 180,000 miles on it. So we went car shopping and test driving.

(She does the test driving, and I just hang around looking at the mechanical setup, later to research the reliability and satisfaction ratings.)

 

1.  Honda has gone crazy as a car company.  Every model they offer now, including the perennial consumer favorite  Accord, is now turbocharged, with a CVT that may or may not be as reliable as their older designs.  The ground up redesign of the Accord body style leaves you with poor visibility in every direction except forward, and riding in it you expect at any moment to hear Houston Mission Control checking in on the crew welfare. Not my fave.  Very performance oriented and sporty if you're not some old fuck who shops for reliability first and foremost.  It might go the distance, but I suspect the Accord will follow the Civic, which got dropped as a recommended car by consumer Reports a couple years back when it underwent a full redesign.

2.  Toyota is more cautious in adopting new tech, and still sells a reasonable version of the Camry, with a normal, fuel injected but not turbocharged engine.  Unfortunately, they have this year adopted a new, super futuristic 8 speed auto trans that has been getting horrible feedback from some of the owners.  It apparently shifts whenever the hell it wants to at highway speeds. No love.  Too bad, because I have a real love affair with the old Camry.  When we trade it in, it will immediately get shipped off to the car auction, where some enterprising junk parts dealer will buy it and sell the parts off it in one of the more horrible endings for a good and faithful car.  There's a lesson for all of us in this. :(

3.  It turns out that Hyundai is selling their Sonata pretty aggressively these days in terms of pricing, features, and warranty.  This is doubtless because they had a huge scandal back in 2011-2012 when they first started making the 2.4 engines in Alabama, and the machining debris cleaning process they were using at the time was not getting all the crap out of the smaller recesses in the block and bearing journals. They handled the problem by denying it existed, even as more and more of the car engines seized at the 60-80,000 mile mark.  They  even hauled one of their career engineers from Korea in front of a disciplinary board when he squealed to the Feds.  As a result, even though they now seem to have a solid car to sell, that lacks all the questionable sporty technology that I am trying to avoid, they are having trouble selling cars.  Serves them right, the bastards.  

But I am not above taking advantage of the situation, and it does appear that they were forced to figure out what was wrong on the manufacturing line and fix it with a high pressure liquid debridement system.  Also, the warrranty is about what you used to get from all the better companies, until they decided to stop offering it.  10 years/100,000 miles on the powertrain ( I think.)  Anyway, we looked at and drove one today, and that's what we're going to buy.

 

I hope @jsharr has by now resolved his car buying issues.  If it means anything to the Southerners present, I think this car was put  together in Alabama.  Probably by workers eating Little Debby snack  cakes and drinking Dr Pepper.

 

But you did all that research and decision making THIS YEAR???  How is it even possible???  :whistle:

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1 hour ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

 I say stick with the classic 2000 Camry.  

...if it were only me, this is what I would do.  It has no cash value to speak of, so costs little to register and insure every year.

It has relatively recent quality tyres, an recent radiator, and the brakes got done last year.  it still smogs OK every other year.  Dream car...but she's worried about "reliability".:facepalm:

 

Like nobody ever broke down on the highway with a recent model car.

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1 hour ago, Page Turner said:

Accord, is now turbocharged,

Put simply, EVERY car should be turbocharged. It is a no brainer these days.  This isn't the 80s/90s anymore :)

But the CVT thing is definitely not my thing (yet?).  I'd go Accord Sport with the 10sp auto.

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Tom

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I have a 2012 hybrid Camry, bought new in 2013.  I've got about 90k on it, paid it off about a year ago.  I plan to keep it until I can afford the car I want, the good news is, it's likely to last that long.

I won't do a lot of research on the next car.  I'll find the model I want, with the features I want, if it fits and drives as expected, I'll buy it.  If they don't have one with the features I want, I'll order it.

Life is too short to worry about such things.

Now go get me an organic, vegan, gluten free, hot dog, with a lightly toasted bun.

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17 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Put simply, EVERY car should be turbocharged. It is a no brainer these days.  This isn't the 80s/90s anymore :)

...mama always said, "Stupid is as stupid does." I'm guessing you're another guy who doesn't do his own car repairs ?:)

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18 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

I have a 2012 hybrid Camry, bought new in 2013.  I've got about 90k on it, paid it off about a year ago.  I plan to keep it until I can afford the car I want, the good news is, it's likely to last that long.

I won't do a lot of research on the next car.  I'll find the model I want, with the features I want, if it fits and drives as expected, I'll buy it.  If they don't have one with the features I want, I'll order it.

Life is too short to worry about such things.

Now go get me an organic, vegan, gluten free, hot dog, with a lightly toasted bun.

...what if you go to the car dealership, like when I went to the Honda dealer here, and find out that not only do they no longer manufacture a car with the features you want, but the hot dogs they are giving away for the 4th of July sale event are neither Vegan, nor are the buns gluten free ? What will you do then, Mr Smarty Pants "life is too short to think about such things" ?

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Just now, Page Turner said:

...what if you go to the car dealership, like when I went to the Honda dealer here, and find out that not only do they no longer manufacture a car with the features you want, but the hot dogs they are giving away for the 4th of July sale event are neither Vegan, nor are the buns gluten free ? What will you do then, Mr Smarty Pants "life is too short to think about such things" ?

There are plenty more cars and dealers.  I'd change my thoughts on the car I wanted.

When I bought this one, it was a 1 year, new, leftover.  80 miles on it.  I knew it had been sitting on the lot for a year and they were stuck with it.  No idea why, it's a fully loaded XLE hybrid.  I love it.  Sticker price was 36 or so.  I wanted 20 for my 3 year old Camry, and offered them 30 for theirs.  They said no, I said thank you and walked out.  The manager followed me out and asked if I was serious.  I said yes, I went home with a new car.  I hate car shopping, haggling is not fun for me.  I offered what I wanted to pay.  They whined about how much money they lost.  Well, they should not have sold me the car then.

Sadly, I did not get a hot dog.

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1 minute ago, Square Wheels said:

  Sticker price was 36 or so.  I wanted 20 for my 3 year old Camry, and offered them 30 for theirs. 

...who sells a three year old car ? :huh:  If you're gonna swap your car out every three years, you might as well lease.

My cars go some distance, which is why I am now fantastically wealthy, and you ought therefore to treat me better.:flirtyeyess:

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Good research! I tip my hat.  It's a shame about the Accord.  I rented a 2014 Taurus a few years agi and was amazed at how much less visibility there was out the back compared to the 1997 Taurus I has traded in for my 2013 Honda Fit which is excellent in terms of visibility in all directions.

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13 minutes ago, smudge said:

The guy likes his bling. ;)

 

15 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

I drive a lot.  I wanted a hybrid.  I'm impulsive.

 

58 minutes ago, Square Wheels said:

  I plan to keep it until I can afford the car I want, the good news is, it's likely to last that long.

I won't do a lot of research on the next car.  I'll find the model I want, with the features I want, if it fits and drives as expected, I'll buy it.  If they don't have one with the features I want, I'll order it.

Life is too short to worry about such things.

 

...the car @Square Wheels wants:

f89ca200ab9865aac8e8f8ba15fc1e95--big-wh

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9 hours ago, Page Turner said:

...if it were only me, this is what I would do.  It has no cash value to speak of, so costs little to register and insure every year.

It has relatively recent quality tyres, an recent radiator, and the brakes got done last year.  it still smogs OK every other year.  Dream car...but she's worried about "reliability".:facepalm:

 

Like nobody ever broke down on the highway with a recent model car.

AAA membership and save the rest. :)

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Another factor that may play into the decisions of some........where is the dealership that's going to service your new car till the warranty expires.  Being as I live out in the country and dealerships are relatively far away this has some bearing.  Womaxx's Nissan Cube (09) has been a relatively reliable vehicle other than various problems with the "bulletproof" exhaust system.  It's actually a Versa in disguise and I received a large surprise when Nissan voluntarily upped my warranty on the CV transmission to double the original because of my faith that they had fixed their CVT problems.  No problems in 10 years so far.  Fairness requires that I admit that the vehicle has less than 60K miles on it in that time however.  The dealership however is 20+ miles away if they get the call to service the car.  My two local dealerships are Dodge and Toyota.  Dodge is a non starter unless you want 3/4ths of a thousand hp and an insurance bill to match.  My last two cars have come from the local Toyota dealership.  Some of you may remember my Scion IQ, a great vehicle for one or two people interested in cheap transportation with little space for anything else. I kept it for 5 years and 25,000 miles and the only problem was a particularly poor design for the cabin air intake resulting in an annual mouse infestation and several blown cabin fan motors that require the disassembly of the dash to replace.  (one of the lesser known problems of living in the woods)

The newer Toyota (Scion) is an IM.  I purchased this as the Cube was becoming aged and I wanted a car that could double as a family vehicle and actually carry things.  IMO it's an excellent car with a normally aspirated engine in the 130 hp range.  It is a bit of a technology monster as the engine is Toyota's valveomatic with variable everything, ignition, fuel injection and valve timing along with a 6 speed CVT and can be a multi range CVT or with the push of a button the equivalent of a 6 speed automatic with high performance ranges.  It has more than enough hp to enter the highway at proper speed, averages in excess of 32 mpg overall and has pulled in excess of 40mph on long speed limit trips on the highway.  It was one of the Scions transferred over to Toyota badges when Toyota abandoned the Scion idea.  It is available with a manual transmission for those who desire one.

Service is less than 2 miles away.

Honda was 30 miles away.  Ditto Hundai.

 

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Eggselent post, maxx!  This is turning into a great automotive forum. :)  Hey, cars have wheels too!

Our only reasonably close stealership is Nissan, but I have been stuck on Honda for aboot 30 years now.  All the other stealers are aboot 3 times the distance away. 

Interesting the differing approaches to programming the cvts. I hated the "disconnected" feeling at first but love the " slipper clutch" feeling and resulting acceleration in the Fit. The Hondas don't have any selection directly. I haven't noticed if the eco button changes the programming. 

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50 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

Eggselent post, maxx!  This is turning into a great automotive forum. :)  Hey, cars have wheels too!

Our only reasonably close stealership is Nissan, but I have been stuck on Honda for aboot 30 years now.  All the other stealers are aboot 3 times the distance away. 

Interesting the differing approaches to programming the cvts. I hated the "disconnected" feeling at first but love the " slipper clutch" feeling and resulting acceleration in the Fit. The Hondas don't have any selection directly. I haven't noticed if the eco button changes the programming. 

Our Cube has a one speed transmission that behaves like a locomotive, low throttle low revs, high throttle high revs with speed being completely independent.  When you come to a hill, throttle increases, revs increase speed remains the same.  I feel completely disconnected.

The IQ had a more modern CVT with ranges that sort of felt like an automatic transmission with the Cubes disconnect within each "gear" range.

The IM behaves more like a 7 speed automatic with very narrow bands of CV action.  When the sport button is depressed it behaves completely like a clutchless 7 speed including transmission breaking and downshifting like a manual transmission.  The only thing it doesn't have is shift paddles to control the sport mode manually.

Technology is great.

It comes at a price however.  My current Toyota engine is so thin walled and lightweight that it is almost un-rebuildable and is tuner power restricted.  My salesman has one pushed out to 175hp and that is near the practical limit before engine damage.  All it took to get there was a cold air intake and a chip.  More would simply wear out the engine quickly and require a new engine.

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2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Technology is great.

It comes at a price however.  My current Toyota engine is so thin walled and lightweight that it is almost un-rebuildable and is tuner power restricted.  My salesman has one pushed out to 175hp and that is near the practical limit before engine damage.  All it took to get there was a cold air intake and a chip.  More would simply wear out the engine quickly and require a new engine.

I am quite amazed at how much better modern engines pull at low RPM than the older ones did - the old ones always bogged down.  I am guessing it is mostly more advanced valve and ignition timing and well controlled fuel injection that makes this possible. 

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11 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

I am quite amazed at how much better modern engines pull at low RPM than the older ones did - the old ones always bogged down.  I am guessing it is mostly more advanced valve and ignition timing and well controlled fuel injection that makes this possible. 

This car is only about 1 second slower in the quarter mile than my first factory stock race car and it has an engine less than half the size.  It gets there more quietly and with more comfort too.  Of course we had no computers back then and I could tune the engine by placing my hand on the engine and adjusting the carb with a screwdriver.  Ditto modern transmissions and tire and brake technology.

It will not however do burnouts, spin the tires, make smoke and noise.  And it will not ever get 6 mpg or swallow an 8 track tape.

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7 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...good to know. :)

The only thing you should be aware of is that the 2015 model had a very low clearance.  Almost too low, really.  This can cause problems bottoming out on steeper inclines and the like.  But we put a lot of miles on it as it currently is the only automobile we have and we have yet to have a mechanical problem with it.  Plus we get great gas mileage.

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12 minutes ago, Dottles said:

We love our 2015 Hyundai Sonata and if given the choice, we would do it all over again.

I also have a Sonata. I'm happy with it.

Sure Hyundai made a mistake. Name a car company that hasn't made a mistake...

They make a good car at a good price that is durable.

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10 minutes ago, Dottles said:

The only thing you should be aware of is that the 2015 model had a very low clearance.  Almost too low, really.  This can cause problems bottoming out on steeper inclines and the like.  But we put a lot of miles on it as it currently is the only automobile we have and we have yet to have a mechanical problem with it.  Plus we get great gas mileage.

Yes, this is one disadvantage to my IM.  It has an aero package that causes it to want to scrape the nose on curbs and the bottoms of driveways on roads with a lot of camber.  One has to learn where the "invisible" lower nose is when one parks the car.  In that regard it's a bit like my old Daytona that had almost 2 1/2 feet of nose beyond the hood pins which were the farthest thing the driver could see.

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15 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

I can't imagine driving one of those Daytonas around!

Driving was great, in an old school muscle car fashion.  (the car was as big as a baby limo)  Parking was a bitch.  Coming off the highway to a stop light was a bit iffy as the temp guage listed 240 degf as "normal" and it got there a lot with so little air intake area to cool it off a very low speed.  The best feeling was when accelerating past 100 (still pulling hard) and getting the sensation of the aero package just beginning to press the car down and stabilize it at just the point that most other American cars would begin to wander around a bit.

The very best though was having the CT state police inspector do the inspection of my car to get CT plates when I moved back from the south.  His comment.  "I wish our gearheads were like your gearheads" "This is one serious car" "Passed".

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Each time I've purchased a car as an adult, I ask my sisters if they like what they're driving, and  if they do, get one of them.  Luckily they are both currently driving the same model car, so I didn't have to choose when I got my last car.

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Next part of the research after narrowing down to the model...True Car, to find low price range to negotiate from. As a last resort, could always use TrueCar. When purchased the VW after stalled negotiation, sale rep told me he was glad I found it as he couldn't suggest it, but was a far better price than the sales manager negotiate. With True Car I essentially changed the rules for the sales manager. A little trick I found was to search, not by my zip code but by the zip code of the dealership. Among the quotes, it will tell you how far away the dealer is, and if over 3 miles, you know that dealer does not participate - but in my case, that dealer did. Also, build the quote to match the car in stock - color and options, etc. Finally, while the TrueCar.com is OK, I found organizations, such as USAA, who use them return a slightly better price on the same vehicle/dealership.

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