Razors Edge ★ Posted August 19, 2018 Share #1 Posted August 19, 2018 You may not know Jesse, but he worked on my rear wheel last week. Background: My rear wheel was making all sorts of spoke noises. Similar to how it sounded prior to a spoke breaking. I couldn't feel any particular spoke as being loose, so I figure it might be a good idea to have the shop look at it. Took it in, dropped it off, they de-tensioned and re-tensioned it, and I picked it back up. Anyway, swapped it back on to the bike, went for a ride, no more noise present (good!), and I was happy. Eventually, I hit a stretch where the road opened up and I could shift into higher gears. I noticed some real sloppy shifting!!! I worried I had bent my DR hanger or that the wheel was improperly set in the drop outs. Since it is Di2 and I always talk about the way Di2 always shift perfectly(!), I was wondering WTF had happened. Finally, I decided it was likely the cassette was a little loose, and maybe sliding a little left/right under shifts. I decided to check it out before my next ride and to swap back the other wheels if necessary. Still finished my 30 mile ride just ahead of the lightning storm. Headed down to the garage this morning and threw it up on the bike stand. Aha!!!! Can anyone spot the problem?????? Anyway, stripping the bike cassette of for a thorough cleaning and proper alignment, I did notice some weird marks on the cassette splines. Not sure what would cause that or if it is new to worry about. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted August 19, 2018 Share #2 Posted August 19, 2018 lower, lower, higher, lower. Maybe he set it up for you to ride rolling hills. Just keep shifting one direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share #3 Posted August 19, 2018 4 minutes ago, dennis said: lower, lower, higher, lower. Maybe he set it up for you to ride rolling hills. Just keep shifting one direction. It needed a good cleaning so I didn't mind. But still... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dinneR ★ Posted August 19, 2018 Share #4 Posted August 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Razors Edge said: It needed a good cleaning so I didn't mind. But still... Tom Seems like something I would do to my own bike and then scratch my head for about an hour trying to figure out what went wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 19, 2018 Author Share #5 Posted August 19, 2018 1 minute ago, dennis said: Seems like something I would do to my own bike and then scratch my head for about an hour trying to figure out what went wrong. I still need to ride the "fixed" cassette. God knows I could have messed something else up... Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 19, 2018 Share #6 Posted August 19, 2018 Yeah, he stacked them wrong. Did he also put each of the higher gears on backwards? That may account for the damaged spline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share #7 Posted August 20, 2018 3 hours ago, donkpow said: Yeah, he stacked them wrong. Did he also put each of the higher gears on backwards? That may account for the damaged spline. I think it is impossible to put them on backwards. To cut Jesse a break, he did build my bike two years ago, and I have not had a single issue related to the build in two years. Generally my favorite mechanic there. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 20, 2018 Share #8 Posted August 20, 2018 9 hours ago, Razors Edge said: I think it is impossible to put them on backwards. So you are a masher. Is that about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share #9 Posted August 20, 2018 3 hours ago, donkpow said: So you are a masher. Is that about it? Do you think that could cause those nicks? Those would be the gears where mashing/sprinting would start for me - gears 6 to 8 - like kicking hard for a short snappy climb or to lead into the final "sprint". I should look at some of my other cassette shells to see if they have the same, but rarely breaking a max of 1,000 watts, I would think I don't qualify for being someone who can damage equipment too much. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 20, 2018 Share #10 Posted August 20, 2018 I don't know, Tom. I'm just looking at your pictures. From my point of view, I catch myself dragging a leg and picking back up with a bang in the drivetrain. My opinion is that a constant steady pressure on the crank is going to minimize damage like this, no matter the speed of the turn. I was going to look and see if I could find the torque spec on the cassette retainer nut. I know it's made to not back off but it needs to be installed at torque in order to compress the gears and spacers together. You won't be able to compensate enough with good technique if the cassette isn't tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share #11 Posted August 20, 2018 59 minutes ago, donkpow said: I was going to look and see if I could find the torque spec on the cassette retainer nut. What's funny is I noticed that rating (and ignored it) when I was fixing the cassette. I have NEVER applied a torque wrench to it. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 20, 2018 Share #12 Posted August 20, 2018 40N m is around 30 ft lb. It's difficult to give you an example. If you can beg, borrow, or steal a torque wrench. Do it once and you'll know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share #13 Posted August 20, 2018 5 minutes ago, donkpow said: 40N m is around 30 ft lb. It's difficult to give you an example. If you can beg, borrow, or steal a torque wrench. Do it once and you'll know. I hear ya.....but... I have tens of thousands of miles on my different wheelsets. NONE have ever had a cassette shell issue - with or without those odd marks. I'm willing to take my chances that this won't ever cause a big issue (but I will keep an eye on it). A replacement shell is maybe $40, so even if it does go belly up, I can afford it. That being said, I do install the nut with a pedal wrench holding the cassette (12 inch lever) and a 6 inch set of pliers around the cassette lockring tool. The pliers are really where I apply the leverage, so do you think 40N is about equal to what a relatively normal dude could torque down if really trying? More? Less? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share #14 Posted August 20, 2018 And, as an aside, my 30 mile ride was nearly completely unaffected by this insanity! It says something about gears, derailleurs, Shimano, Di2, or whatever that I was able to roll out with this wacky set-up, still shift from 1 to 11 (obviously mis-shifts at the 8th and 9th cogs), and really just feel like it was slightly misadjusted. The old "shift past and come back" method worked fine when the DR couldn't quite make the jump. Pretty impressive. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 20, 2018 Share #15 Posted August 20, 2018 I'll give you an example. A lug nut on a car usually takes around 100 ft lb. You may bust a gut on that. This is less than a third of that. I would say, "Install firmly." If you push it to 45, it won't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 20, 2018 Share #16 Posted August 20, 2018 Pliers are difficult because you can only apply as much power as you can squeeze the pliers. Channel lock type pliers give you long handles for more grasping leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share #17 Posted August 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, donkpow said: Pliers are difficult because you can only apply as much power as you can squeeze the pliers. Channel lock type pliers give you long handles for more grasping leverage. Yep - those are the ones I use. But only about 6' handle vs that pair that looks to be longer. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 20, 2018 Share #18 Posted August 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Razors Edge said: Yep - those are the ones I use. But only about 6' handle vs that pair that looks to be longer. Tom That style of pliers will give you more 'bite' than a similar size of regular pliers. In other words, for a given length of handles, you will get more torque with this style than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 20, 2018 Share #19 Posted August 20, 2018 Quote Anyway, stripping the bike cassette of for a thorough cleaning and proper alignment, I did notice some weird marks on the cassette splines. Not sure what would cause that or if it is new to worry about. Tom ...the freehub body is aluminum, and it is not especially hard aluminum. Those marks are not unusual, are caused by the cog interface on their inside edges, and I used to see them all the time when I was working on other people's bikes. If you're worried that you've somehow done some damage to the freehub body, just file or sand off any burrs or high spots if they interfere with sliding the cogs on and off (which it appears they don't.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 20, 2018 Share #20 Posted August 20, 2018 On 8/19/2018 at 8:54 AM, Razors Edge said: Can anyone spot the problem?????? ...the problem is you have too many choices when you pick a rear cog. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share #21 Posted August 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Page Turner said: ...the problem is you have too many choices when you pick a rear cog. I sadly never see any of your classic steel bikes out where the roads tilt skyward Us old folks need a variety of options - the more the merrier. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 21, 2018 Share #22 Posted August 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Razors Edge said: I sadly never see any of your classic steel bikes out where the roads tilt skyward Us old folks need a variety of options - the more the merrier. Tom ...I used to gear them for more up and down, but hardly ever found myself using the full range. So lately I've just gone with shorter cage rear derailleurs, and smaller cog clusters. The bikes I have that are geared for hills are mostly longer wheelbase, and have fenders and triples on the front. If I had that many cog choices on the rear, I would lose track, just like your mechanic did. Eight is enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 21, 2018 Share #23 Posted August 21, 2018 Here is an olde steel bicycle cycle with gearing range up the wazoo: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share #24 Posted August 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Page Turner said: Here is an olde steel bicycle cycle with gearing range up the wazoo Is that a 3 x 5 or 3 x 6? Regardless, please explain why that would be preferable to a 2 x 11 or even the newer 1 x 12? Tm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikeman564™ Posted August 21, 2018 Share #25 Posted August 21, 2018 On 8/19/2018 at 11:54 AM, Razors Edge said: Can anyone spot the problem?????? Anyway, stripping the bike cassette of for a thorough cleaning and proper alignment, I did notice some weird marks on the cassette splines. Not sure what would cause that or if it is new to worry about. Tom one time I accidentally had one cog out of place But realized it before I rode the bike. I have bite marks on my freehub bodies too. No worry. Its caused by the cassette's spline pressing against the hub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 21, 2018 Share #26 Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Razors Edge said: Is that a 3 x 5 or 3 x 6? Regardless, please explain why that would be preferable to a 2 x 11 or even the newer 1 x 12? Tm ...3X6. It's preferable because I can use a fatter chain, the shifting is less finicky, and it will still give me as wide (or wider) gear range. Not making this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share #27 Posted August 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Page Turner said: ...3X6. It's preferable because I can use a fatter chain, the shifting is less finicky, and it will still give me as wide (or wider) gear range. Not making this up. I recommend you ride one of my bikes. Chain issues? None in the past dozen years. Shifting? Buttery smooth, one touch, immediate, an "afterthought". Not a single adjustment in two years. Range? 5mph up, 50mph down is about all I need. I'm also not making this up Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 21, 2018 Share #28 Posted August 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, Razors Edge said: I recommend you ride one of my bikes. Chain issues? None in the past dozen years. Shifting? Buttery smooth, one touch, immediate, an "afterthought". Not a single adjustment in two years. Range? 5mph up, 50mph down is about all I need. I'm also not making this up Tom ...I have guads the size of redwood trunks. I would break one of your sissy-assed 11 or 12 speed chains the first time I dialed it up to 400 watts going up a climb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share #29 Posted August 21, 2018 28 minutes ago, Page Turner said: ...I have guads the size of redwood trunks. I would break one of your sissy-assed 11 or 12 speed chains the first time I dialed it up to 400 watts going up a climb. I use the same chains as Peter Sagan. Heck, in most respects, the same bike. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 21, 2018 Share #30 Posted August 21, 2018 ...I have seen Sagan here, in person at the Tour of California. I have bigger guads. He is prettier than me, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share #31 Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Page Turner said: ...I have seen Sagan here, in person at the Tour of California. I have bigger guads. He is prettier than me, though. Ah, but I don't! So, I'm good to go! Tom 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share #32 Posted August 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Page Turner said: I would break one of your sissy-assed 11 or 12 speed chains the first time I dialed it up to 400 watts going up a climb. And maybe impartial bystander @donkpow can explain how 400 watts breaks a chain when you use it, but mine are fine at well over twice that, and Peter's at 4 times that, and Greipel's at five times that. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 21, 2018 Share #33 Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Razors Edge said: And maybe impartial bystander @donkpow can explain how 400 watts breaks a chain when you use it, but mine are fine at well over twice that, and Peter's at 4 times that, and Greipel's at five times that. Tom ...my 400 watts =/= your 400 watts. As previously stated, I gots the guads, mon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razors Edge ★ Posted August 21, 2018 Author Share #34 Posted August 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Page Turner said: ...my 400 watts =/= your 400 watts. As previously stated, I gots the guads, mon. This is where @donkpow and his scientific background would help straighten things out. But to further confuse things, do your guads =/= my quads? Or are guads a CA thing? I love guac, though. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Page Turner Posted August 21, 2018 Share #35 Posted August 21, 2018 ...guads are what we "drope the hamer" guys call them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkpow Posted August 21, 2018 Share #36 Posted August 21, 2018 As with most questions re. watts, whats, wut, whatever, ... I defer to The World's Foremost Authority for a scientologist type solution. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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