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what do you think of this deal


bikeman564™

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A guy I know is selling a 2014 pair of ZIPP 303 firecrest wheels for $800. New they're $2200. They weren't used that much because he switched to discs (not sure what not that much means). What do you all think? I've been eyeing these up but thought about getting the 302s because they're cheaper than 303s at $1500 (LBS sells for $1250) But this seems like a deal.

 

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2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Seems at the high end of fair - but still fair if in good shape.

That was my initial thought.  How well do you know the guy?  If you trust him and they are in good shape I’d say go for it.  If you don’t know him that well maybe try to get the price down some.

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39 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

if your looking for aero is it deep enough to make it worth the cost? 

Ha!  "Worth the cost"?   For seconds over an hour if riding alone? Practically zero impact in groups. Is bikeman a paid pro cyclist?

303s are solid enough all-around aero wheels that they justify themselves in looks alone :)

Don't use logic to justify this sort of thing.

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13 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Ha!  "Worth the cost"?   For seconds over an hour if riding alone? Practically zero impact in groups. Is bikeman a paid pro cyclist?

303s are solid enough all-around aero wheels that they justify themselves in looks alone :)

Don't use logic to justify this sort of thing.

What I’m saying is if he wants aero wheels, I’d not spend the money on the 303’s and instead go with a deeper rim choice. I don’t know their intended use.

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Are they tubies or clinchers?  I think he’s high on the price. Prob 4-5 hondos for tubies and 5-6 hondos for clinchers. Guys (expecially Cx guys) are dropping rim brake zipps like mad in favor of new disc brake wheels. If you want rim brake zipps now is the time to buy. Def check the braking surface especially for tubies. If they are, you’ll have to change brake pads on your bike if you go this route. 

 

Ive checked into this a ton. 

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If you do go ahead and buy them, just be sure that the retaining ring is securely installed on the drive side flange. That ring is structural, and without it, the flange cannot withstand the stress of radial lacing. Somewhere, I have a photo of one of those that exploded right in my truing stand.

 Radial lacing on the drive side is done to improve the bracing angle and slightly reduce dish, but it does not offset the considerable disadvantages in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Parr8hed said:

Guys (expecially Cx guys) are dropping rim brake zipps like mad in favor of new disc brake wheels. If you want rim brake zipps now is the time to buy.

My advice - despite their durability - would be to NOT buy these if the person selling them was using them in CX racing (or CX training).  And, 100% not to buy them if the are tubulars.  Life is too short for a roadie to deal with nonsense like tubs.  :D

But that is good logic about folks selling them off due to the move to disc brakes.  That is certainly happening now even in the road market, so these sorts of wheels might become more and more available as folks get new bikes which have disc instead of rim brakes. 

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7 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

My advice - despite their durability - would be to NOT buy these if the person selling them was using them in CX racing (or CX training).  And, 100% not to buy them if the are tubulars.  Life is too short for a roadie to deal with nonsense like tubs.  :D

But that is good logic about folks selling them off due to the move to disc brakes.  That is certainly happening now even in the road market, so these sorts of wheels might become more and more available as folks get new bikes which have disc instead of rim brakes. 

Yes on the tubs. And also 303’s are really ideal for Cx but if you’re looking for Road I’d prob hold out for 404 clinchers. Just MHO. 

 

Of course if the price rice can be dropped and you want to buy these just for “bling factor” be my guest. No judging here. 

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4 hours ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

Wheels can really cost this much?  Damn!

- signed, RalphtheCheapBastard.

Not many people know this but Philo Barnum, P. T. Barnum's father, invented the carbon fiber wagon wheel. It was slow to catch on so the patent passed through many hands before ending up with Zip.

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7 hours ago, Rattlecan said:

If you do go ahead and buy them, just be sure that the retaining ring is securely installed on the drive side flange. That ring is structural, and without it, the flange cannot withstand the stress of radial lacing. Somewhere, I have a photo of one of those that exploded right in my truing stand.

 Radial lacing on the drive side is done to improve the bracing angle and slightly reduce dish, but it does not offset the considerable disadvantages in my opinion.

I found the photos of the failed 404 hub. The wheel came to me for a simple truing. Easy enough. a couple of drive side spokes had reduced tension, so I commenced to fix the problem. The flange exploded almost immediately, tearing through the retaining ring in the process. What I should have done is closely inspect the flange for cracking before going any further.

 Lesson learned. I have seen similar stories from other sources.

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6 minutes ago, Rattlecan said:

That's not what I would call a pull through. That usually implies a nipple pulling right through the hole. That is a rim extrusion failure with a few possible causes.

Yeah, I guess I misremembered what it looked like.  Just seems to me that should never have happened for a truing. I do think they warned me that it could happen with old wheels. 

So what do you think would be the best bet to replace old wheels?  I'll have too see if my even older 1981 Raleigh Grand Prix ones would fit. This is a 1988 Raleigh Technium. 

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23 hours ago, Parr8hed said:

Are they tubies or clinchers?  I think he’s high on the price. Prob 4-5 hondos for tubies and 5-6 hondos for clinchers. Guys (expecially Cx guys) are dropping rim brake zipps like mad in favor of new disc brake wheels. If you want rim brake zipps now is the time to buy. Def check the braking surface especially for tubies. If they are, you’ll have to change brake pads on your bike if you go this route. 

 

Ive checked into this a ton. 

Clincher, I would only buy clincher. They were only used on a road bike, no CX. I know about the brake pads :)  If I look at these, I'll check the braking surface.

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12 hours ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

Yeah, I guess I misremembered what it looked like.  Just seems to me that should never have happened for a truing. I do think they warned me that it could happen with old wheels. 

So what do you think would be the best bet to replace old wheels?  I'll have too see if my even older 1981 Raleigh Grand Prix ones would fit. This is a 1988 Raleigh Technium. 

If the hub is still in good condition, it might be worthwhile having it built up with a new rim if you know a good local wheel builder. Your 81 probably has 27" wheels and I'll bet the 88 is 700c. You would have a better chance of that working out if it was the other way around.

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5 minutes ago, Rattlecan said:

If the hub is still in good condition, it might be worthwhile having it built up with a new rim if you know a good local wheel builder. Your 81 probably has 27" wheels and I'll bet the 88 is 700c. You would have a better chance of that working out if it was the other way around.

The hubs are definitely worn oot!  Maillard, and I remember the bike shop telling me they couldn't get parts anymore.  You're right, the 81 is 27".  Now I remember why I just bought the new-to-me newer bike. :D

 

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On 2/3/2019 at 10:45 AM, ChrisL said:

Back in the day we called tubulars sew ups. How come nobody calls them that anymore?

Any of you guys ever ride em?

I would guess that nobody sews them up anymore.  I have a bike in the basement that has tubulars on it.  I have never ridden it.  One of these days.  

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36 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I would guess that nobody sews them up anymore.  I have a bike in the basement that has tubulars on it.  I have never ridden it.  One of these days.  

Don't they dry rot like other tires?  I remember LA aging his tubs in some dark space before using them, but wonder if once they are sewn and glued and exposed to sunlight and whatever that they will also experience a steady decay.

And, interesting explanation of "dry rot" in rubber:

The name 'dry rot' is actually a misnomer when used in regard to tires. The actual meaning of this term is the damage caused to wooden objects by a particular fungus. Dry rot in tires is, in fact, a condition where its rubber becomes hard and brittle, which causes cracking of the sidewalls. This is in no way related to any fungus, but is mostly caused due to various reasons like aged tires, high mileage, UV radiation, and exposure to ozone, which cause the oils present in the tires to evaporate and leave behind dry rubber.

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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Don't they dry rot like other tires?  I remember LA aging his tubs in some dark space before using them, but wonder if once they are sewn and glued and exposed to sunlight and whatever that they will also experience a steady decay.

And, interesting explanation of "dry rot" in rubber:

The name 'dry rot' is actually a misnomer when used in regard to tires. The actual meaning of this term is the damage caused to wooden objects by a particular fungus. Dry rot in tires is, in fact, a condition where its rubber becomes hard and brittle, which causes cracking of the sidewalls. This is in no way related to any fungus, but is mostly caused due to various reasons like aged tires, high mileage, UV radiation, and exposure to ozone, which cause the oils present in the tires to evaporate and leave behind dry rubber.

Yes, I believe so.  I changed out the taars on this particular bike about 2.-3 years ago.  It needs a little TLC before it is road worthy again.  It has really cool old Mavic wheels.  Lugged steel.  7 speed.  This bike was the first and last time (so far) that I have glued up tubulars.  I don't see myself doing it again.  

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1 minute ago, Parr8hed said:

Yes, I believe so.  I changed out the taars on this particular bike about 2.-3 years ago.  It needs a little TLC before it is road worthy again.  It has really cool old Mavic wheels.  Lugged steel.  7 speed.  This bike was the first and last time (so far) that I have glued up tubulars.  I don't see myself doing it again.  

If the bike is nice enough to keep, you can probably find a clincher wheelset to use.  Every time I listen to racing types discuss their whole process around prepping and gluing and dicking around with tubulars, I thank god I was born in 1970 and not 1950.  I got to skip the tubulars are essential to riding era. I am way too lazy to add any special steps to my cycling regimen.  Even the thought of dealing with tire sealant in tubeless is starting to irritate me.

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59 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I would guess that nobody sews them up anymore.  I have a bike in the basement that has tubulars on it.  I have never ridden it.  One of these days.  

Well the truth of the matter is very few people sewed them up to repair them either.  It was a royal PITA.  The term was more of a reference on how they were made, as in sewn up so they were closed or “tubular” rather than an open clincher.  

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26 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Don't they dry rot like other tires?  I remember LA aging his tubs in some dark space before using them, but wonder if once they are sewn and glued and exposed to sunlight and whatever that they will also experience a steady decay.

And, interesting explanation of "dry rot" in rubber:

The name 'dry rot' is actually a misnomer when used in regard to tires. The actual meaning of this term is the damage caused to wooden objects by a particular fungus. Dry rot in tires is, in fact, a condition where its rubber becomes hard and brittle, which causes cracking of the sidewalls. This is in no way related to any fungus, but is mostly caused due to various reasons like aged tires, high mileage, UV radiation, and exposure to ozone, which cause the oils present in the tires to evaporate and leave behind dry rubber.

IIRC the aging process hardened the rubber making them more durable/less likely to puncture and was done in very cool dry conditions.  I forget the guys name, Jules something or other who had hundreds, maybe thousands of tubulars in various stages of aging.  He was Lemonds mechanic and then I think LA’s mechanic with Motorola.  But the process of aging tubulars or sew ups was common back in the day.

I was born in the mid 60’s, started racing as a teen and was a part of the transition from sew ups to clinchers. The Specialized Turbo was the first high quality & affordable clincher that rivaled tubulars.  I switched to clinchers in 83 I think.

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2 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

If the bike is nice enough to keep, you can probably find a clincher wheelset to use.  Every time I listen to racing types discuss their whole process around prepping and gluing and dicking around with tubulars, I thank god I was born in 1970 and not 1950.  I got to skip the tubulars are essential to riding era. I am way too lazy to add any special steps to my cycling regimen.  Even the thought of dealing with tire sealant in tubeless is starting to irritate me.

It is not about being a nice enough bike.  It is a sentimental thing.  I won't change anything on this bike.  

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2 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Well the truth of the matter is very few people sewed them up to repair them either.  It was a royal PITA.  The term was more of a reference on how they were made, as in sewn up so they were closed or “tubular” rather than an open clincher.  

Right, I meant that I am not sure anyone is making them that way anymore. Maybe I am wrong?  

Tubies are still all the rage in cross.  All of the cool kids ride tubies.  That or tubeless.  I guess G is a dinosaur for still being on tubes.  When I finally get him race wheels they will prob be tubular just for Cx.  Not sure yet.  

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3 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Right, I meant that I am not sure anyone is making them that way anymore. Maybe I am wrong?  

Tubies are still all the rage in cross.  All of the cool kids ride tubies.  That or tubeless.  I guess G is a dinosaur for still being on tubes.  When I finally get him race wheels they will prob be tubular just for Cx.  Not sure yet.  

Can you run as a a psi on tubeless as you can on tubulars? I believe you can, which to me makes tubeless a better selection.

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1 minute ago, Parr8hed said:

Right, I meant that I am not sure anyone is making them that way anymore. Maybe I am wrong?  

Tubies are still all the rage in cross.  All of the cool kids ride tubies.  That or tubeless.  I guess G is a dinosaur for still being on tubes.  When I finally get him race wheels they will prob be tubular just for Cx.  Not sure yet.  

To my understanding the manufacturing process is the same in that the casing is still sewn around a tube.  A rim strip is glued over the casing so you never see the stitching.  Materials are better I’m sure...  

It’d be interesting to see if the manufacturing process is the same.

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4 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Can you run as a a psi on tubeless as you can on tubulars? I believe you can, which to me makes tubeless a better selection.

I think that tubular can go lower.  But not so much lower that it makes sense to go that route.  I know that tubless can run significantly lower than normal tube clinchers.  The real big deal is how easy it is to change a taar.  Not like in an emergency (that is what a pit bike is for) but like the day before the race.  Changing tire selection to fit the terrain.  This is what gives tubeless the big edge.

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2 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

To my understanding the manufacturing process is the same in that the casing is still sewn around a tube.  A rim strip is glued over the casing so you never see the stitching.  Materials are better I’m sure...  

It’d be interesting to see if the manufacturing process is the same.

I want to say that I saw somewhere where it is made with hi temp glue and pressures these days.  

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2 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I think that tubular can go lower.  But not so much lower that it makes sense to go that route.  I know that tubless can run significantly lower than normal tube clinchers.  The real big deal is how easy it is to change a taar.  Not like in an emergency (that is what a pit bike is for) but like the day before the race.  Changing tire selection to fit the terrain.  

You mean that there is a wider variety of tubular cross tyres? Because changing out either is a bit of a chore, but glueless is easier than glued.

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3 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

You mean that there is a wider variety of tubular cross tyres? Because changing out either is a bit of a chore, but glueless is easier than glued.

No, I mean that it's far easier to change a tubeless cross taar than it is to change a tubular cross taar.  You can carry several sets of taars and one wheelset and change out taars as you need to.  Far more of a PITA to change out tubular taars from course to course.  

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40 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

No, I mean that it's far easier to change a tubeless cross taar than it is to change a tubular cross taar.  You can carry several sets of taars and one wheelset and change out taars as you need to.  Far more of a PITA to change out tubular taars from course to course.  

I gotcha. I thought you were telling me that tubular gave you better options, I see you were actually agreeing with me. :console:

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1 hour ago, Parr8hed said:

When I finally get him race wheels they will prob be tubular just for Cx.  Not sure yet.  

This would seem to be a "after I get him a pit bike" sort of thing, because if he doesn't have a pit bike, I'd keep everything as simple as possible to maintain and fix quickly.  However, sometimes reading the near single digit PSI folks can run in a CX race makes me wonder if anything but a tubular can go that low.

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4 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

This would seem to be a "after I get him a pit bike" sort of thing, because if he doesn't have a pit bike, I'd keep everything as simple as possible to maintain and fix quickly.  However, sometimes reading the near single digit PSI folks can run in a CX race makes me wonder if anything but a tubular can go that low.

He's got a pit bike.  Katie Compton reportedly ran 18 psi at nats this year.  

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3 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

This would seem to be a "after I get him a pit bike" sort of thing, because if he doesn't have a pit bike, I'd keep everything as simple as possible to maintain and fix quickly.  However, sometimes reading the near single digit PSI folks can run in a CX race makes me wonder if anything but a tubular can go that low.

This is why tubulars are so popular in cross as you can run really low PSI without fear of pinch flats. You can also continue to ride on a flat tire should you flat and get to the pits.

The problem is if you don’t have the $$$$ for numerous sets of wheels, changing tires to the conditions is next to impossible. 

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