Allow me to vent

[Parr8hed]

Anyone @JerrySTL ?, talk to me who has done Jr racing. Am I in the wrong for being a little pissed here? 

 

Thpically there is a juniors category. There is 18 and under and there is 15 and under (sometimes even 13 and under). 

 

The Omnium this weekend has an ITT Friday. It was “open juniors”. Meaning anyone 18 and under can do it. I’m ok with this. But here is the problem. 15 and under cannot use TT bike, or clip on aero bars. They can use deep section wheels but no disc rear wheels. 16 year olds can use all of this. The ITT Friday had 3 kids in it. 2 15u kids and a 16 year old. Of course he was kitted our with a full on aero bike, disc rear wheel and 808 front. Aero helmet, the whole 9 yards. Griffin and George has to compete against that on mass start road bikes (Griffin was actually on a cross bike).

Yesrerday’s RR was traditional with 18u and 15u. G did very well. George ended up winning the whole thing, even beating the TT kid that was 16. 

Today’s crit is an open juniors race again. There are several other bigger kids today. (16-17 year olds). And more 15u kids as well. I’m not sure on the overall Omnium prized if the have 2 categories or not, but it just seems a little shitty to me.  

[JerrySTL ★]

I've seen worse. Not only did Laura often had to race against all the other junior women age classes even when she was younger, but sometimes she had to race against the cat 4 and 3 women as there were no other juniors. Or she had to race against the junior boys of all ages. In a way it made sense because if she was the only one in her age group, winning would be more like a participation prize. However she wasn't restricted in what equipment she could use any more than other juniors.

Laura didn't mind losing in such conditions but really, really enjoy it when she did win or podium. 

[Airehead]

Sounds like rules that were made for safety and experience but don't make sense in reality. 

[Parr8hed]

20 minutes ago, JerrySTL said:

I've seen worse. Not only did Laura often had to race against all the other junior women age classes even when she was younger, but sometimes she had to race against the cat 4 and 3 women as there were no other juniors. Or she had to race against the junior boys of all ages. In a way it made sense because if she was the only one in her age group, winning would be more like a participation prize. However she wasn't restricted in what equipment she could use any more than other juniors.

Laura didn't mind losing in such conditions but really, really enjoy it when she did win or podium. 

But she still had to use Jr gearing even when racing 3/4 and the older girls were using a 52/11 right?

[Razors Edge ★]

1 hour ago, Parr8hed said:

The ITT Friday had 3 kids in it

This is the challenge/problem   If there were 10 kids or 15 kids, it's not an issue, but when you get into the only a handful in an event, you're obviously hamstrung by the options the organizers have, and they either bend/change rules or they try to work within the confines of the rules and still put on a race - often a combined one. 

Jerry might know the reason kids have the gearing and equipment limits - seemingly a safety one and maybe a budgeting one - so it makes sense to "live with" those rules until G is a little older and can race with the older folks on an equal playing field. Hopefully, these sorts of things don't discourage him (or other kids), and they realize that each new year gives them better competition, better incentives, and better opportunities to shine. 

[Randomguy]

I thought this thread was going to be about all the Texas chili (with extra beans) you had.  I am very disillusioned now, how are you going to fix this?

[Parr8hed]

19 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

This is the challenge/problem   If there were 10 kids or 15 kids, it's not an issue, but when you get into the only a handful in an event, you're obviously hamstrung by the options the organizers have, and they either bend/change rules or they try to work within the confines of the rules and still put on a race - often a combined one. 

Jerry might know the reason kids have the gearing and equipment limits - seemingly a safety one and maybe a budgeting one - so it makes sense to "live with" those rules until G is a little older and can race with the older folks on an equal playing field. Hopefully, these sorts of things don't discourage him (or other kids), and they realize that each new year gives them better competition, better incentives, and better opportunities to shine. 

I think that the easy answer is that if you know you’re going to have an open Jr ITT, then make it an even playing field. If 15u can’t use TT bikes, then nobody can. George could have beaten that kid if they were both on road bikes. Times were pretty close. 

[Razors Edge ★]

9 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

I think that the easy answer is that if you know you’re going to have an open Jr ITT, then make it an even playing field. If 15u can’t use TT bikes, then nobody can. George could have beaten that kid if they were both on road bikes. Times were pretty close. 

That's tough.  It isn't the one 16yr old's fault no other kids his age race   Are there points awarded for winners, or is there some reason 16kid can't win 1st (his group), and George 1st, & G 2nd (their group)?   Or was it 16'er, George, G going 1-2-3 with no distinction in age or equipment?

[donkpow]

I don't have any kids and if I did they would be pussies. Rules are set to establish a level playing field. Junior level rules also create safe limits to the competition. It's obvious there are not enough junior competitors to fill a field in this case. You get the choice; race or not. I would rather race than not. Okay? Given that, I wouldn't be likely to win in this case. However, I would walk away with something. For each their own.

Personally, I would walk the pits and wheel tent to score some nice parts.

[JerrySTL ★]

2 hours ago, Parr8hed said:

But she still had to use Jr gearing even when racing 3/4 and the older girls were using a 52/11 right?

That got complicated. If there were no junior races, then she could use any gears. We had two wheels with different gears for that reason. 

[JerrySTL ★]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Jerry might know the reason kids have the gearing and equipment limits - seemingly a safety one and maybe a budgeting one

Not budgeting because finding the correct cassette (usually 14-28) was actually more expensive than more common cassettes. It was more for keeping the juniors from hurting their knees and maybe limiting top speeds.

[Prophet Zacharia]

I think my assessment is that racing against older, faster riders, even on bikes with different gearing, will be good experience. Don’t worry about the placing, ride for the race experience. But yeah, I’d want separate podiums.

[2Far ★]

Meh. Life is neither fair nor equitable. 

The rules will balance out soon enough.

Just do the best you can and stay safe. 

[Razors Edge ★]

11 hours ago, Parr8hed said:

But she still had to use Jr gearing even when racing 3/4 and the older girls were using a 52/11 right? 

Parr, have you run the numbers through a gear calculator? A 52/11 vs a 48/14 are BOTH gears no junior is pushing in a TT.  It's a non-issue as far as I can tell.

On the flip side, the aero disadvantage is real, but one key part of the equation likely does not play into G's favor   Flat or mildly downhill TTs are ALL about POWER. TTs with significant ups and few downs play into Power-Weight ratios, but it is probably rare to see that type of course.  On a typical relatively flat course, overall power definitely trumps aero (and less power).  I got the impression George was a good bit bigger than G, and would guess the 16 yr old would also be bigger(??), in which case, sustained power is gonna be the big decider in most TTs.

[Parr8hed]

Thanks for allowing me to vent. A lot of good points here. 

[Razors Edge ★]

5 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Thanks for allowing me to vent. A lot of good points here. 

Can he wear a dope super-aero TT helmet?  Those are cool and effective!

[Parr8hed]

6 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Can he wear a dope super-aero TT helmet?  Those are cool and effective!

Yes. He can wear a helmet and use deep dish wheels. But no disc. No clip on aero bars. And it has to me a “mass start” bicycle. 

[Randomguy]

20 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Thanks for allowing me to vent. A lot of good points here. 

You get what you get and you don't get upset.

[Razors Edge ★]

16 minutes ago, Parr8hed said:

Yes. He can wear a helmet and use deep dish wheels. But no disc. No clip on aero bars. And it has to me a “mass start” bicycle.  

Tight fitting clothes and an aero helmet are both equal or possibly greater than deep dish wheels.  Not sure about the disc wheel, though.  Pin the number properly. Shoe covers help.  Also, there is the "fake" aero position you see some roadies use when soloing of the front of the peloton.  Shoulders/chest and thighs are huge wind blockers, and obviously, can't do much about thighs, but can minimize shoulders/chest.

Spec has some fun vids: