And we really want to pay these people $15hr?

[maddmaxx ★]

I went to McDonalds this morning with an order for 4 Sausage McMuffins @ 2 for $2.  The first ring up is for 2 muffins @ $2.  "No, I want 4 muffins for $4.  The first order is canceled and the clerk rings up an order that shows $4.  I have no cash so I plug in the credit card for $4.25 after tax.  I wait.  I listen to the assistant manager say "I'm waiting on 4 sausage Mc Muffins without egg.  She puts stuff in the bag.  I look in the bag and there are only 2 sandwiches there.  "Excuse me there are only two sandwiches here".  That's what you ordered.  No I ordered 4 sausage mc muffins without egg for $4.  I hand her the receipt that I really haven't looked at since it was the expected price.  "See here, you ordered 2 Sausage Mc Muffins with egg for $4.  "No I didn't".  The clerk who rang me up steps up and says "he's right, I must have rung it up wrong.  So they want to cancel the order, credit my card and reorder it correctly.  I put my card in the reader and promptly see an $8 credit.

Mmmmmm you shouldn't be giving me an $8 dollar credit for a $4 dollar mistaken order.  The assistant manager who just rang this up drops her head and I briefly think about stepping back.  The manager who is manning the drive through during all this shouts over..........just let it go and get him the right sandwiches.

So basically I get 4 sandwiches (nice and fresh), pay them $4.25 and get a credit for $8.50.  I looked at the manager and raise my eyebrows.  "We're good man, go and enjoy the sandwiches.

Meanwhile the $15hr wage bill marches steadily through CT's halls of government.

[Longjohn ★]

What a deal, my wife will eat those. I don’t say anything.

[Razors Edge ★]

I've never bought breakfast for four consecutive days at one time.  I suggest just keeping it simple and buying one for $1 each day.  That way they are "fresh".

[parodybot]

Did you want fries with that?

[2Far ★]

Well, part of the theory is that they will attract employees who are a little higher on the evolutionary scale.

Theory.

[maddmaxx ★]

Economic science:

The art of studying an inexact set of circumstances using inexact methods and insufficient data while producing a set of guesses that may or may not give a result something like the blue fairy waiving a wand and saying "poof" your rich.

[parodybot]

2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Economic science:

The art of studying an inexact set of circumstances using inexact methods and insufficient data while producing a set of guesses that may or may not give a result something like the blue fairy waiving a wand and saying "poof" your rich.

Assume "intelligence."

Just enjoy your $4 and your breakfast and shut up already.   At least you did not call them cheese burgers.  Hey @Razors Edge have you ever considered a job in the food service industry.  Sounds like you are a perfect fit.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

1 minute ago, parodybot said:

Assume "intelligence."

Just enjoy your $4 and your breakfast and shut up already.   At least you did not call them cheese burgers.  Hey @Razors Edge have you ever considered a job in the food service industry.  Sounds like you are a perfect fit.

 

Just remember that this generation of "sandwich" flippers may grow up to be doctors or nurses someday.

After their free college education that is.

[Razors Edge ★]

5 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Economic science:

The art of studying an inexact set of circumstances using inexact methods and insufficient data while producing a set of guesses that may or may not give a result something like the blue fairy waiving a wand and saying "poof" your rich.

Cost shifting?  McDonalds paying them an "almost" livable wage with the cost of that coming from McDonalds customers

OR

McDonalds paying them little, and the state and federal taxpayers covering the costs. 

I'd rather McDonalds and its customers pay.

[maddmaxx ★]

They can't live on less than $15 hr.

 

Ok.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, maddmaxx said:

They can't live on less than $15 hr.

 

Ok.

??? Can they? I have no idea.  The question would be whether or not McDonalds is getting subsidized labor via your tax dollars.  Why are taxpayers picking up the burden for this sort of thing, but not for other things like the aforementioned "free college"?

Maybe you like your tax burden or think you would rather have 2 for $2 breakfast sandwiches than a tax reduction, but it is likely the standard Walmart corporate subsidy program at work here.

[dinneR ★]

Fast Food? Seriously? Who is the fool here? 

Nancy Reagan said it best "Just say no."

[maddmaxx ★]

OK, this is probably on the fast track to P&R but the results for the $15 experiment in Seattle are in and guess what.  Wages for good workers who already had jobs went up.  Companies are getting by with fewer people now.

I'd call that a failed program that now requires more infrastructure spending for bridges that people can live under.

Giving away higher wages instead of improving education is a very unfortunate idea.

[maddmaxx ★]

1 minute ago, dennis said:

Fast Food? Seriously? Who is the fool here? 

Nancy Reagan said it best "Just say no."

I didn't quibble with the 4 people I was buying the sandwiches for.

[Kzoo]

20 minutes ago, 2Far said:

Well, part of the theory is that they will attract employees who are a little higher on the evolutionary scale.

Theory.

Those people already have $15 and hour jobs.

#usethekosik

[parodybot]

Just now, Kzoo said:

Those people already have $15 and hour jobs.

#usethekosik

And they know the difference between an and and.  Supersize me please.

[2Far ★]

2 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Those people already have $15 and hour jobs.

#usethekosik

Well, maybe those people do, but what about the $12/hour people? Shirley they are better than the $8/hr people??

[Kzoo]

4 minutes ago, parodybot said:

And they know the difference between an and and.  Supersize me please.

Hey butthead, you want to get picky on typos you should consider the saying, "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

Your You're welcome.

[parodybot]

2 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Hey butthead, you want to get picky on typos you should consider the saying, "Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

Your You're welcome.

I thought the saying was "Those who live in grass houses should not stow thrones"?

[Chris...]

How long before someone pitches the universal basic income in the USA?

[jsharr ★]

1 minute ago, Chris... said:

How long before someone pitches the universal basic income in the USA?

[Razors Edge ★]

6 minutes ago, Chris... said:

How long before someone pitches the universal basic income in the USA?

Are we ready for First World status?  I don't think so.

[ChrisL]

1 hour ago, 2Far said:

Well, part of the theory is that they will attract employees who are a little higher on the evolutionary scale.

Theory.

Yeah theory...

I spent a considerable amount of my career managing hourly staff who were a couple of steps above entry level workers.  What I saw was that as the CA Minimum wage increased the labor pool didn’t really improve.  Those who really should be paid minimum wage just made more and companies were unwilling to pay the staff with any potential more to separate them from the lowest paid workers.

[Kzoo]

I was in a retail establishment the other day - can't remember which one but not a large chain.  Probably one of the many coffee shops I frequent.  I had a sale with the total of exactly $2.50 and I gave the nice young lady a ten.  She got out a calculator to calculate to change.

[maddmaxx ★]

5 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

I was in a retail establishment the other day - can't remember which one but not a large chain.  Probably one of the many coffee shops I frequent.  I had a sale with the total of exactly $2.50 and I gave the nice young lady a ten.  She got out a calculator to calculate to change.

Not at all uncommon.  Very few younger workers in the retail trade can actually make change.  That's why they have registers into which one types the amount tendered.  If you want to really wreck her day give her $3.50 because you are trying to get rid of your change.

[Page Turner]

...I only eat the popcorn I make at home.

[The_Karen_Cooper_Incident]

I blame her parents.  And the public schools. And Canada. 

We should bring public stoning back.  Or some form of stoning. Maybe throw cats at the public's stooped people in an attempt to make them less dumb.  Yea!  And pitchforks. 

But seriously, you really have to go out of your way to be as stupid as the cashier in the OP's story.  

Shu Fang 

[Page Turner]

8 minutes ago, Shu Fang said:

We should bring public stoning back.  Or some form of stoning.

...getting stoned is now legal in the entire state of California. No, really...border to border.

[The_Karen_Cooper_Incident]

13 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...getting stoned is now legal in the entire state of California. No, really...border to border.

Are you trying to make a funny? 

Shu Fang 

[late]

2 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

OK, this is probably on the fast track to P&R but the results for the $15 experiment in Seattle are in and guess what.  Wages for good workers who already had jobs went up.  Companies are getting by with fewer people now.

I'd call that a failed program that now requires more infrastructure spending for bridges that people can live under.

 

"A little more than six months later, and minds have indeed been changed — among them Autor's. He now says that other recent minimum-wage papers have underscored the limitations of the Seattle study...

Chief among those newer papers is a large analysis of the effects of minimum-wage increases that have occurred since 1979... Dube's paper is more in line with conventional economic thinking: On average, minimum-wage increases eliminated jobs paying below the new minimum, but added jobs paying at or above the new minimum. The two changes effectively cancel each other out.

“It's hard for anyone to initially assess whether some work is good or bad, and it takes academics a long time to reach a view on this,” Autor said. “There's a process. It takes us a while to figure that out.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/02/05/raising-the-minimum-wage-doesnt-cost-jobs-multiple-studies-suggest/?utm_term=.767963df9df5

 

The article says it may be that increases of 10% or less don't rile the market. But that larger increases may take a while to absorb the change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kzoo]

17 minutes ago, late said:

On average, minimum-wage increases eliminated jobs paying below the new minimum, but added jobs paying at or above the new minimum. The two changes effectively cancel each other out.

Yeah that's real easy to say....... unless you are one of those people with the eliminated job.

Send this to the P&R bit bucket but Increases in minimum wage is bad policy... unless you are a manufacturer of retail kiosks. 

Minimum wage jobs are minimum wage jobs for a reason.  The social issues with trying to survive on a minimum wage are not associated with the job market.  They are associated with families and education and.....  But let's put this on the back of business that actually create jobs because businesses are evil and need to be abused so that they can in turn abuse their customer base.  The flywheel principle. 

[bikeman564™]

3 hours ago, Chris... said:

How long before someone pitches the universal basic income in the USA?

everyone should make the same income

[Zephyr]

My daughter trains sea lions and in spite of having an applicable University degree, to do this job she works for minimum wage, which was until recently, $12.50, and in a bigger (for Canada) city.

For two years she has had the job, she has paid all her bills herself, has not gone into debt and has managed to save $7000 towards a car for herself after hers died.

Yes she got a cheap cell phone instead of the latest iphone, and she has a small studio apartment and furniture from Ikea.  And yes she cooks her own food and stays away from Sunday Hipster brunch with $10 avocado toast and expensive coffee.  She does not "Skip the dishes" or "Uber eats".  She watches TV on her laptop and does not have cable or a landline.  She is a very light drinker so so spends little on booze.  She does treat herself to the odd movie(on cheap night)

So you can live on minimum wage, the issue people have is that they want to live like they make $50/hr when they make $15.

Granted she is not supporting a family of three, but for one person, minimum wage is certainly doable.  You will have everything you need, not necessarily everything you want

[late]

18 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

Yeah that's real easy to say....... unless you are one of those people with the eliminated job.

Send this to the P&R bit bucket but Increases in minimum wage is bad policy... unless you are a manufacturer of retail kiosks. 

Minimum wage jobs are minimum wage jobs for a reason.  The social issues with trying to survive on a minimum wage are not associated with the job market.  They are associated with families and education and.....  But let's put this on the back of business that actually create jobs because businesses are evil and need to be abused so that they can in turn abuse their customer base.  The flywheel principle. 

Ignoring the problems is worse.

What we have now is millions of people that work a lot of hours, and still have to depend on help from charity.

Doesn't have to be that way.

[Razors Edge ★]

16 minutes ago, Kzoo said:

But let's put this on the back of business that actually create jobs because businesses are evil and need to be abused so that they can in turn abuse their customer base.  The flywheel principle. 

I think you're missing some many things in your calculations.

Again, this ties back to a BUNCH of inter-related issues, so discussing a minimum wage (of any number) by itself and absent the other issues is dopey and a waste of time.  

[maddmaxx ★]

5 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

I think you're missing some many things in your calculations.

Again, this ties back to a BUNCH of inter-related issues, so discussing a minimum wage (of any number) by itself and absent the other issues is dopey and a waste of time.  

Yet it's put forth as a singular cure all for those other problems you mention.  An ignorant person who dumped school is still an ignorant person at $15 hr.  

[Razors Edge ★]

10 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

My daughter trains sea lions and in spite of having an applicable University degree, to do this job she works for minimum wage, which was until recently, $12.50, and in a bigger (for Canada) city.

For two years she has had the job, she has paid all her bills herself, has not gone into debt and has managed to save $7000 towards a car for herself after hers died.

Yes she got a cheap cell phone instead of the latest iphone, and she has a small studio apartment and furniture from Ikea.  And yes she cooks her own food and stays away from Sunday Hipster brunch with $10 avocado toast and expensive coffee.  She does not "Skip the dishes" or "Uber eats".  She watches TV on her laptop and does not have cable or a landline.  She is a very light drinker so so spends little on booze.  She does treat herself to the odd movie(on cheap night)

So you can live on minimum wage, the issue people have is that they want to live like they make $50/hr when they make $15.

Granted she is not supporting a family of three, but for one person, minimum wage is certainly doable.  You will have everything you need, not necessarily everything you want

An interesting perspective and not unlike many folks, I imagine.  Saving $7k out of $50k is pretty good, for sure.  I personally saved very little money when I was right out of college and paying off debt and earning relative peanuts.  The big change came a couple years later when my wife and I met and eventually moved in together - immediately doubling our household income! We cleared out our debt pretty fast that way, and that also coincided with growing incomes.  Of course, we also had a broad but unused safety net to cover it if we ever needed it (we didn't).  

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Yet it's put forth as a singular cure all for those other problems you mention. 

Great link.  It will take me a while to read through all that information backing up that "singular cure". 

[late]

Stiglitz.

https://www.amazon.com/Price-Inequality-Divided-Society-Endangers/dp/0393345068/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=stiglitz&qid=1558034424&s=gateway&sr=8-3

[Razors Edge ★]

52 minutes ago, late said:

Ignoring the problems is worse.

What we have now is millions of people that work a lot of hours, and still have to depend on help from charity.

Doesn't have to be that way.

Come on! Those folks working at McDonalds are LAZY and undeserving of a decent wage.  Jeebus, if we keep doing this sort of nonsense, we're gonna have to increase the welfare pay rates to keep it attractive!

[MickinMD ★]

5 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

I went to McDonalds this morning with an order for 4 Sausage McMuffins @ 2 for $2.  The first ring up is for 2 muffins @ $2.  "No, I want 4 muffins for $4.  The first order is canceled and the clerk rings up an order that shows $4.  I have no cash so I plug in the credit card for $4.25 after tax.  I wait.  I listen to the assistant manager say "I'm waiting on 4 sausage Mc Muffins without egg.  She puts stuff in the bag.  I look in the bag and there are only 2 sandwiches there.  "Excuse me there are only two sandwiches here".  That's what you ordered.  No I ordered 4 sausage mc muffins without egg for $4.  I hand her the receipt that I really haven't looked at since it was the expected price.  "See here, you ordered 2 Sausage Mc Muffins with egg for $4.  "No I didn't".  The clerk who rang me up steps up and says "he's right, I must have rung it up wrong.  So they want to cancel the order, credit my card and reorder it correctly.  I put my card in the reader and promptly see an $8 credit.

Mmmmmm you shouldn't be giving me an $8 dollar credit for a $4 dollar mistaken order.  The assistant manager who just rang this up drops her head and I briefly think about stepping back.  The manager who is manning the drive through during all this shouts over..........just let it go and get him the right sandwiches.

So basically I get 4 sandwiches (nice and fresh), pay them $4.25 and get a credit for $8.50.  I looked at the manager and raise my eyebrows.  "We're good man, go and enjoy the sandwiches.

Meanwhile the $15hr wage bill marches steadily through CT's halls of government.

I don't have a problem paying workers $15.  I do have a problem with a franchise owner putting up with bad workers.

If we don't pay them $15 hour, our taxes pay for their food stamps, kids free school lunches, low cost housing and bus passes, etc.

[maddmaxx ★]

Wouldn't it be better to educate them so they become worth $15 hr?  IMO giving away money doesn't really do much.

 

Some seem to believe in trickle up economy.  It's just as imaginary as trickle down.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, MickinMD said:

I don't have a problem paying workers $15.  I do have a problem with a franchise owner putting up with bad workers.

Which is an interesting twist, eh?  If $15/hr isn't getting you "good" employees, maybe you need to pay more or do a little better recruiting and training?  

[maddmaxx ★]

You know who gets screwed when the minimum goes from 10 to 15.  The people who worked hard to get $16 hour starter jobs.  If you think their salary is going to magically float up by $5 then you aren't worth $15.

[2Far ★]

3 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Yeah theory...

I spent a considerable amount of my career managing hourly staff who were a couple of steps above entry level workers.  What I saw was that as the CA Minimum wage increased the labor pool didn’t really improve.  Those who really should be paid minimum wage just made more and companies were unwilling to pay the staff with any potential more to separate them from the lowest paid workers.

Yeah, that's what that nitwit out on the left coast found out when he raised everybody to $70k a year. His CPA-Accountant was now making the same as the janitor.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

You know who gets screwed when the minimum goes from 10 to 15.  The people who worked hard to get $16 hour starter jobs.  If you think their salary is going to magically float up by $5 then you aren't worth $15.

Absolutely true.

[ChrisL]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Which is an interesting twist, eh?  If $15/hr isn't getting you "good" employees, maybe you need to pay more or do a little better recruiting and training?  

This was my point earlier.  

Raising minimum wage means the  same crap employee is making more while the good employee who deserves to make a few dollars above minimum gets lumped with the crap as the increase in labor cost doesn’t allow for there to be tiered rates.  

At least that’s what I saw...

[late]

24 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

 

 

Some seem to believe in trickle up economy. 

How many fridges will one rich guy buy? How many will a thousand families buy?

One of the first things you have to do to create a capitalist economy is to break up large, stagnant pools of capital and get it moving.

Think of it as a circulatory system, and ours is blocked up.

[Razors Edge ★]

32 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Some seem to believe in trickle up economy.  It's just as imaginary as trickle down.

Yep - it ain't a trickle up, it is more a torrent up.  But that's still better than a "never trickle down".

[BR46]

One day a coworker and went to McDonald's on our lunch break. My coworker ordered 2 cheese burgers just ketchup. We get back to work and when he grabs his 2 burgers out of the bag all he got was bun, cheese and ketchup. 

No meat