Lance is 100% right

[Randomguy]

It is nice to hear him tell it like it is.  I don’t think he should apologize at all, though, or even hint it was wrong.  

The end. 

[Airehead]

Tell me more.

[Ralphie ★]

So what did the lying sack have to say?

[Randomguy]

13 minutes ago, RalphWaldoMooseworth said:

So what did the lying sack have to say?

He isn’t lying anymore.  Does that just make him a regular sack of shit?  I don’t know, but he remains the most interesting figure in cycling.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-id-have-won-the-tour-de-france-if-everyone-was-clean

[Indy]

Yes, he's just full of shit now.

[jsharr ★]

I was happy to  see him.  He did some evil things to some of his accusers for sure.  I think all the GC riders were doping 

[ChrisL]

It was interesting to see Phil & Bob interview him during the TDF telecast yesterday.  I guess people are interested in his takes but I’d rather they leave him off the telecast.

I call BS on he would have won if everyone was clean but, I will give him/them credit for the preparation and damn they were lucky.... 7 wins without a serious crash, illness, bad day... I bet Froome wishes he could be so lucky.

[ChrisL]

8 minutes ago, jsharr said:

I was happy to  see him.  He did some evil things to some of his accusers for sure.  I think all the GC riders were doping 

After retirement but Before LA admitted it there was an interesting article in Bicycling (I think) that linked every top TDF finisher during the LA era to doping except LA.  Somehow he was the only one not linked to doping... 

 

[Indy]

5 minutes ago, jsharr said:

I think all the GC riders were doping 

Yes, but you'd have to go back and reread how EPO works.  It helps some far more than others as some have naturally occurring levels that are higher, so use of EPO would put them over the limit.  Those are the ones that should've been your top GC riders.  Lance was a one day classic guy without EPO and mid pack GC.  That's pretty much what his natural body chemistry predicted.

[jsharr ★]

2 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

After retirement but Before LA admitted it there was an interesting article in Bicycling (I think) that linked every top TDF finisher during the LA era to doping except LA.  Somehow he was the only one not linked to doping... 

 

Payola, cancer sympathy, who knows

[jsharr ★]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

Yes, but you'd have to go back and reread how EPO works.  It helps some far more than others as some have naturally occurring levels that are higher, so use of EPO would put them over the limit.  Those are the ones that should've been your top GC riders.  Lance was a one day classic guy without EPO and mid pack GC.  That's pretty much what his natural body chemistry predicted.

So he cheated better?

[Wilbur ★]

1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

It is nice to hear him tell it like it is.  I don’t think he should apologize at all, though, or even hint it was wrong.  

The end. 

I like the new Lance.  You can tell he has done a lot of therapy in his answers.  I am thinking he has found a happy place, one where he can tell the truth and just be Lance. 

Yes, he lied but they all lied.   Many in sports still do.  I will never believe the Williams sisters haven't doped to get to where they are, for instance. 

[Indy]

6 minutes ago, jsharr said:

So he cheated better?

No, just the drug of choice at the time helped some riders far more than others, so it completely reordered the hierarchy turning the elite riders into mid-pack riders.  Not that those riders didn't use too, but it just wasn't going to provide them near the same level of effectiveness as you can only raise levels so much.  So Lance was lucky in that he wasn't biologically an elite rider so the drugs would work really well for him.

[Indy]

4 minutes ago, wilbur said:

I like the new Lance.  You can tell he has done a lot of therapy in his answers.  I am thinking he has found a happy place, one where he can tell the truth and just be Lance. 

Yes, he lied but they all lied.   Many in sports still do.  I will never believe the Williams sisters haven't doped to get to where they are, for instance. 

Lance didn't just lied, he out right destroyed people's lives.  That's why he doesn't deserve air time.  He's really cruel and mean spirited human.

[maddmaxx ★]

3 minutes ago, Indy said:

No, just the drug of choice at the time helped some riders far more than others, so it completely reordered the hierarchy turning the elite riders into mid-pack riders.  Not that those riders didn't use too, but it just wasn't going to provide them near the same level of effectiveness as you can only raise levels so much.  So Lance was lucky in that he wasn't biologically an elite rider so the drugs would work really well for him.

Wut?  Are you saying Lance is a bastard because his drugs worked better than other riders drugs?

[jsharr ★]

4 minutes ago, Indy said:

Lance didn't just lied, he out right destroyed people's lives.  That's why he doesn't deserve air time.  He's really cruel and mean spirited human.

He came from a single parent family in a mean, rich Texas town and got on the world stage and had millions on the line.  He thought he had so much to lose.  So many people counting on him for their livelihood.  The success of his team, etc.     Fear made him do evil things I think.      Not sure any of us will ever know why he chose to do what he did.    I think each time he shut down a rumor made him dig the hole deeper to try and hide the lie he was living.

A lucky investment saved him and helped restore his wealth, and I think that is part of the reason his is speaking out now, as he feels he paid his debt and they took his money and now he feels safer speaking out.

[jsharr ★]

8 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Wut?  Are you saying Lance is a bastard because his drugs worked better than other riders drugs?

No, he is a bastard due to the way he attacked and tried to ruin or ruined the lives of his accusers.    

[ChrisL]

6 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Wut?  Are you saying Lance is a bastard because his drugs worked better than other riders drugs?

I think Indy is right but he made a different point.

I agree that LA/Postal & Discovery cheated better than anyone else.  Look at the former Posties who got caught after leaving the team like Tyler & Floyd as well as all of the other riders on other teams who got caught.  

There was never a smoking gun until LA admitted it. They cheated better than everyone else.

[bikeman564™]

I listen to his podcasts, and IMO it was great for NBC to have him on the telecast.

[maddmaxx ★]

46 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I think Indy is right but he made a different point.

I agree that LA/Postal & Discovery cheated better than anyone else.  Look at the former Posties who got caught after leaving the team like Tyler & Floyd as well as all of the other riders on other teams who got caught.  

There was never a smoking gun until LA admitted it. They cheated better than everyone else.

IMO it wasn't cheating at the time because it passed all tests and fell within the norm.  It was the retroactive tests that changed the rules for what happened in the past that made it "illegal".  I suggest we exhume Babe Ruth's body and test it for drugs using modern methods.

Example:  If a rule says your baseball bat can't be more than x.x inches in diameter and your is, then in the future if they decide to reduce the diameter they shouldn't come back and try to take away your hits. What if they get more modern laser measuring equipment and discover that your bat which was measured by existing equipment back then was actually x.x +.0001.  It shouldn't matter because your bat.......and Lance were measured legal using testing equipment at that time.

[Randomguy]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

Yes, but you'd have to go back and reread how EPO works.  It helps some far more than others as some have naturally occurring levels that are higher, so use of EPO would put them over the limit.  Those are the ones that should've been your top GC riders.  Lance was a one day classic guy without EPO and mid pack GC.  That's pretty much what his natural body chemistry predicted.

Only until he dropped twenty pounds, then he was a GC guy whose s/w ratios made a lot more sense for stage races. 

[Randomguy]

USPS cheated no better or worse than the other top teams.  It is silly to say otherwise. 

[Indy]

12 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Only until he dropped twenty pounds, then he was a GC guy whose s/w ratios made a lot more sense for stage races. 

So you don't understand how EPO works.

[ChrisL]

42 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

USPS cheated no better or worse than the other top teams.  It is silly to say otherwise. 

100% disagree. They cheated better and covered it up better than the others.  

[Prophet Zacharia]

1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

IMO it wasn't cheating at the time because it passed all tests and fell within the norm.  

Incorrect. In 1999, he tested positive for cortisone. His team doctor wrote a back-dated prescription for a cream and a story was concocted that he used that cream for a saddle sore to explain the positive test. The UCI accepted the story so as to not have doing scandles in back-to-back Tours.

In 2000 he tested positive for EPO, although it was a new test and that decided to interpret it as “inconclusive “. His doctor was working with the doctor who developed the test, so they knew how to skirt detection, more or less.

Later, they directly paid bribes to the UCI President, setting him up with investiment accounts.

[maddmaxx ★]

2 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Incorrect. In 1999, he tested positive for cortisone. His team doctor wrote a back-dated prescription for a cream and a story was concocted that he used that cream for a saddle sore to explain the positive test. The UCI accepted the story so as to not have doing scandles in back-to-back Tours.

In 2000 he tested positive for EPO, although it was a new test and that decided to interpret it as “inconclusive “. His doctor was working with the doctor who developed the test, so they knew how to skirt detection, more or less.

Later, they directly paid bribes to the UCI President, setting him up with investiment accounts.

And the UCI judged it all to be legal..........so it was.

[Prophet Zacharia]

2 hours ago, jsharr said:

No, he is a bastard due to the way he attacked and tried to ruin or ruined the lives of his accusers.    

Even his friends. I had forgotten about how he treated the owner of your bike store (I think it was Hoyt?), running away from the Police after being pulled over for DUI and abandoning the car which was in the store owner’s name. Also saddled him with numerous unpaid tickets. Apparently they never spoke after that.

[Prophet Zacharia]

1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

And the UCI judged it all to be legal..........so it was.

So bribery makes it ok?

[maddmaxx ★]

2 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

So bribery makes it ok?

Not what I said.  The UCI judged it legal and so it was.  There is a world of interpretation between right and legal and most of the anti Lance sentiment borders on "right".  Eventually that sentiment caused people to use modern technology not available at the time to create a different environment in which to judge him.  It was an environment that had less to do with "justice" then "revenge" for the perceived damage done to "right".

[Prophet Zacharia]

I found myself disliking Lance less last night during his commentary. I was conflicted by this, but found his input interesting.

[Prophet Zacharia]

1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

Not what I said

Then you just ignored that piece of his coverup puzzle.

[maddmaxx ★]

Just now, Prophet Zacharia said:

Then you just ignored that piece of his coverup puzzle.

Not at all.  When you create rules and punishments and tests then you have to live within those rules, punishments and tests.  Are you saying that the UCI was as guilty as Lance or that both parties were living on the edge?

[Randomguy]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

So you don't understand how EPO works.

 

50 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

100% disagree. They cheated better and covered it up better than the others.  

Oh, stop, the only difference was he didn’t get caught in the act.  Tell me the Germans and Spaniards didn’t dope just as well or that there was any semblance of clean riding going on at the time.  

I still think he wins those tours against the other dopers. 

[Indy]

1 minute ago, maddmaxx said:

Not at all.  When you create rules and punishments and tests then you have to live within those rules, punishments and tests.  Are you saying that the UCI was as guilty as Lance or that both parties were living on the edge?

If you accept a bribe and allow some to skirt the rules, not sure there is really much debate here.

[maddmaxx ★]

Just now, Indy said:

If you accept a bribe and allow some to skirt the rules, not sure there is really much debate here.

Why isn't there a movement to ban the UCI and remove them from the job?

[Prophet Zacharia]

2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Are you saying that the UCI was as guilty as Lance 

That’s exactly what I am saying. The UCI was as corrupt as the Tour is long.

[Indy]

1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

 

Oh, stop, the only difference was he didn’t get caught in the act.  Tell me the Germans and Spaniards didn’t dope just as well or that there was any semblance of clean riding going on at the time.  

I still think he wins those tours against the other dopers.  

You completely missed the point.  If the field was clean, the top riders of that era are not the top riders.  It's been a long time since I was up on this stuff, but some people have naturally occurring high hematocrit levels.  Others have low, Lance had low, EPO boost those levels.  You have a body that is used to running on low levels, not good for sustained performance, but used to it, now you boost those levels to that of elite guys.  The guys with naturally occurring high levels, raise their levels and they are almost instantly popped for using EPO as they are beyond accepted limit.

[Indy]

4 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Why isn't there a movement to ban the UCI and remove them from the job?

I think most of them have been, but haven't followed pro cycling closely in years.

[Prophet Zacharia]

I have no idea what Lance’s natural HCT is. He’s clearly a gifted athlete, he won Worlds as a 23 year old (iirc), etc. But EPO, testosterone, cotisone, HGH, etc also clearly benefited him. He was spending close to/over $100,000 a year on doping, he himself knows the doping was helping. 

Yes, other elite riders also doped. But what I think was Postal did before anyone else was to systematically dope the entire squad, and evolve their doing strategy over time to avoid detection. This gave them the ability to shell the competitors even before Lance hit the high mountains. Often times they would stop their transfusion schedules mid-race, because the lead they had established was already insurmountable.

[ChrisL]

7 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

 

Oh, stop, the only difference was he didn’t get caught in the act.  Tell me the Germans and Spaniards didn’t dope just as well or that there was any semblance of clean riding going on at the time.  

I still think he wins those tours against the other dopers. 

If  they all cheated and nearly everyone got caught but LA then yes, he was a better cheater than the Spaniards, Germans and Italians.

LA was also a better cheater than the Dutch, Belgians, Danes but not the Brits. They got the shit figured out now!

[Prophet Zacharia]

7 minutes ago, Indy said:

I think most of them have been, but haven't followed pro cycling closely in years.

Remember, the Festina Affair wasn’t the UCI cracking down on riders doping. It was French Police arresting cycling team workers for sporting fraud. The UCI made adjustments to maintain appearances with the Police and the public, but their motive wasn’t really to curtain doping, at least not initially.

[ChrisL]

5 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Yes, other elite riders also doped. But what I think was Postal did before anyone else was to systematically dope the entire squad, and evolve their doing strategy over time to avoid detection. This gave them the ability to shell the competitors even before Lance hit the high mountains. Often times they would stop their transfusion schedules mid-race, because the lead they had established was already insurmountable.

In other words they cheated better than their peers....

[maddmaxx ★]

16 minutes ago, Indy said:

You completely missed the point.  If the field was clean, the top riders of that era are not the top riders.  It's been a long time since I was up on this stuff, but some people have naturally occurring high hematocrit levels.  Others have low, Lance had low, EPO boost those levels.  You have a body that is used to running on low levels, not good for sustained performance, but used to it, now you boost those levels to that of elite guys.  The guys with naturally occurring high levels, raise their levels and they are almost instantly popped for using EPO as they are beyond accepted limit.

Drugging is ok for some but not for others?  If this isn't what you're saying then I certainly don't understand what point you are making.

[Prophet Zacharia]

5 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

In other words they cheated better than their peers....

They were dialed in, to be sure.

Floyd Landis was the meadling teenager in Lance’s Scooby Doo story. If Lance hadn’t been a dick to Floyd, helped him get a job and move on from his own suspension, USADA never has enough to move forward. Also, if Lance hadn’t decided to unretire in 2011, USADA’s interest isn’t there.

[ChrisL]

2 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

They were dialed in, to be sure.

Floyd Landis was the meadling teenager in Lance’s Scooby Doo story. If Lance hadn’t been a dick to Floyd, helped him get a job and move on from his own suspension, USADA never has enough to move forward. Also, if Lance hadn’t decided to unretire in 2011, USADA’s interest isn’t there.

Agreed.  Floyd took his lumps and didn’t say a word (at first).  All LA had to do was show him a little gratitude and give him a roster spot on Radio Shack But LA told him to fuck off.

 

[Prophet Zacharia]

3 hours ago, ChrisL said:

 article in Bicycling (I think) that linked every top TDF finisher during the LA era to doping 

 

Cadel Evans. I have never seen one hint of accusation that Evans doped, and his performances are suggestive of a rider who did not experience the same level of consistency that doped riders did. In other words, he looked to tire out like one should during a Grand Tour.

[ChrisL]

1 minute ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Cadel Evans. I have never seen one hint of accusation that Evans doped, and his performances are suggestive of a rider who did not experience the same level of consistency that doped riders did. In other words, he looked to tire out like one should during a Grand Tour.

I’m going back quiet a few years and the article was referencing the LA era.  There were a couple of top 10 finishers with no direct links to doping, he may have been one.

[Prophet Zacharia]

3 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

I’m going back quiet a few years and the article was referencing the LA era.  There were a couple of top 10 finishers with no direct links to doping, he may have been one.

I think, at the time, Evans was 3rd in 2007 and 2008 (now “officially” upgraded to 2nd?), 4th (or 5th?) in 2006, won in 2011, 7th in 2012, , 8th in 2005.

I am glad they just vacated the wins and didn’t name alternate winners, as Contador, the Schlecks, Pereiero, Sastre, et al all had tainted pasts.

[jsharr ★]

50 minutes ago, Prophet Zacharia said:

Even his friends. I had forgotten about how he treated the owner of your bike store (I think it was Hoyt?), running away from the Police after being pulled over for DUI and abandoning the car which was in the store owner’s name. Also saddled him with numerous unpaid tickets. Apparently they never spoke after that.

Jim and Rhonda were instrumental in getting him started.  I know they travelled to France to watch him race and had lots of stuff he gave them hanging in the Richardson store.  I need to stop by for some C0₂ cartridges, will look and see if any is still up.  Have not seen Jim or Rhonda in the store the last few times in, but they are great people.

[Prophet Zacharia]

11 minutes ago, jsharr said:

Jim and Rhonda were instrumental in getting him started.  I know they travelled to France to watch him race and had lots of stuff he gave them hanging in the Richardson store.  I need to stop by for some C0₂ cartridges, will look and see if any is still up.  Have not seen Jim or Rhonda in the store the last few times in, but they are great people.

My sources say they were bought out by Woody Smith?