So Close, Yet So Far...

[Razors Edge ★]

The new Specialized Creo line is definitely PRETTY and can haul azz, but I still hate that they are SOLELY ebikes.  I'm not sure if my heavy commuter bike tips that scales at 28 lbs, and I'd definitely not ride that in the mountains.  I'm sure I'd get suckered into getting the S-Works version, so it would "only" be 27lbs to lug around when not in electric mode.  I guess that sort of sums up my problem with ebikes - that they are basically always ebikes, and not just a boost when you need it. IOW, lug around 75% more bike than you need until that one climb comes along where a boost is what you want. 

The Turbo Creo SL Expert comes in road and gravel builds, the gravel model carrying the Evo designation. The road model weighs 12.8kg (28.2 pounds) and the gravel model, which comes with heavier tires and a dropper post, weighs 13.5kg (29.8 pounds); both retail for US$9,000.

The higher-end S-Works Turbo Creo SL weighs 12.2kg (26.9 pounds) and retails for US$14,000. A limited-run S-Works Turbo Creo SL Founder’s Edition, which can be trimmed down to 10.9kg (24 pounds) with an external battery, retails for an astronomical US$17,000.

By comparison, the Pinarello Nytro weighs 13kg (28.66 pounds), offers a regionally limited pedal assist up to 15.5mph (25 km/h), and costs US $7,000. The Focus Paralane2 9.9 weighs 12.8kg (28.21 pounds), uses the same Fauza motor as the Pinarello assisting riders up to 15.5mph, and costs US$9,849. Trek’s Domane+ weighs 17.19 kg (37.89 pounds), assists the rider up to 28mph (45 km/h), and costs US$7,000.

The Pinarello has comparable weight, and costs less than a Turbo Creo SL, but delivers roughly half the power. The Focus Paralane2 9.9 has comparable weight, costs more than the Turbo Creo SL Expert, and also delivers roughly half the power. The Domane+ has comparable power to the Turbo Creo SL, and costs less, but weighs a not-insignificant 5kg (11 pounds) more.

[2Far ★]

Yeah, I don't know if the economic train has passed me by, but there's no way I'm spending $7k on a bike. I guess, using very squinted eyes, that if I had to be a regular office commuter & the bike would effectively be 1/3-1/2 a car, then I could justify it.

 

[dinneR ★]

Orbea Gains start at $2500 and weigh less than the Specialized. Riding without the assist is not a big deal. My road bike weighs 24 lbs maybe and my Fargo is closer to 28 lbs. That weight is not really a big deal.

[Razors Edge ★]

11 minutes ago, dennis said:

Orbea Gains start at $2500 and weigh less than the Specialized. Riding without the assist is not a big deal. My road bike weighs 24 lbs maybe and my Fargo is closer to 28 lbs. That weight is not really a big deal.

Looks like the prices jumped a little this season since bottom tier is now $2,999.

But, what is interesting - on the Gain and maybe others - is the gearing that they are running.  The top level Gain comes with Di2 and a 50/34 chainring and 11-32 cassette. WOW.  You get an electric motor AND a granny gear.  I would think (and I would change) that this particular Gain should come with either a standard crank 53/39 OR an 11-23 cassette.  An extra 250 watts makes a 34f/32r gear combo nutso for most folks. 

 

 

[ChrisL]

3 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Looks like the prices jumped a little this season since bottom tier is now $2,999.

But, what is interesting - on the Gain and maybe others - is the gearing that they are running.  The top level Gain comes with Di2 and a 50/34 chainring and 11-32 cassette. WOW.  You get an electric motor AND a granny gear.  I would think (and I would change) that this particular Gain should come with either a standard crank 53/39 OR an 11-23 cassette.  An extra 250 watts makes a 34f/32r gear combo nutso for most folks. 

 

 

I do wonder if there is purpose to the ebike gearing or if they are using commonly sourced components?   Having never ridden one myself I wonder what climbing a hill in the granny gear with e assist would feel like.

Personally I don’t see a need for a drop bar e bike but I’m sure others would.  I’d want a more utilitarian based e bike but that’s just me...

[Razors Edge ★]

19 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Personally I don’t see a need for a drop bar e bike but I’m sure others would.  I’d want a more utilitarian based e bike but that’s just me... 

I think this is to capture the market of the aging Gen-X or even the Boomers?  We're the folks with $10k to toss around on "frivolous" stuff, and if you've been road riding for a couple decades, losing a step or two to age can be "fixed" with a little (or a lot of) assist.  Bike manufacturers are chasing bigger margins.

[Indy]

49 minutes ago, 2Far said:

Yeah, I don't know if the economic train has passed me by, but there's no way I'm spending $7k on a bike. I guess, using very squinted eyes, that if I had to be a regular office commuter & the bike would effectively be 1/3-1/2 a car, then I could justify it.

 

$7k is more than I paid for my commuter car and that additional 2k covers a lot of gas.

[Razors Edge ★]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

$7k is more than I paid for my commuter car and that additional 2k covers a lot of gas.

Not really too relevant, since the cost is simply a relative thing for most.  Many folks spend $7k on a family vacation.  So, a week or two in Paris or 5+ years of commuting efficiency? 

[Dottleshead ★]

58 minutes ago, 2Far said:

Yeah, I don't know if the economic train has passed me by, but there's no way I'm spending $7k on a bike. I guess, using very squinted eyes, that if I had to be a regular office commuter & the bike would effectively be 1/3-1/2 a car, then I could justify it.

 

If you spend $7k on a bike, it better have a motor. Just sayin'

[ChrisL]

Did you see the article in Cyclingnews that a couple of the teams sponsored by Specialized will ride the Creo  on todays rest day?  

 

[dinneR ★]

48 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Looks like the prices jumped a little this season since bottom tier is now $2,999.

But, what is interesting - on the Gain and maybe others - is the gearing that they are running.  The top level Gain comes with Di2 and a 50/34 chainring and 11-32 cassette. WOW.  You get an electric motor AND a granny gear.  I would think (and I would change) that this particular Gain should come with either a standard crank 53/39 OR an 11-23 cassette.  An extra 250 watts makes a 34f/32r gear combo nutso for most folks. 

 

 

$2499.

Components are so personal. In the mountains, you appreciate lower gearing. 

And again, drop bar vs. flat bar is a personal choice. I love drop bars and have ridden them on road, gravel, and off-road for years.  You have so many more hand positions to use. For long rides, it makes a big difference. Some people put them on fatbikes.

My GF and I are planning a 350 mile tour. Me on my Salsa and her on her Orbea. 

https://www.orbea.com/us-en/ebikes/urban/gain-urban/cat/gain-f30-usa-19

 

[Razors Edge ★]

7 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

Did you see the article in Cyclingnews that a couple of the teams sponsored by Specialized will ride the Creo  on todays rest day?  

 

Nope.

I know during the Giro, though, there was a whole parallel "race" involving ebikes (and a separate virtual Zwift one too).  The manufacturers are BIG into the new market, so we're definitely going to see more and more of it.

--------------------------------------------------

Last month Giro d’Italia organizer RCS brought back its novelty competition for electric bikes, the Giro E, for the second edition. As it did in 2018, RCS invited teams of riders aboard e bikes to race along the same roads as the professional event. There were 10 total teams, and each team could rotate in one of six riders over the 18-stage event. Each stage included 115km of riding on a bicycle with an electric assist motor.

But how do you create a competition format for motorized bicycles that can overcome tired legs? For 2019 the Giro E organizers devised three challenges for the riders. Riders had to maintain a predetermined average speed over specific sections without the aid of a speedometer. They had to maintain the highest maximum speed over timed sections, and then compete for sprints.

So, what was it like to actually compete in the Giro E? We spoke to Swedish rider Patrik Popelar, who completed six stages of the Giro E, and even raced up the Mortirolo on a Pinarello Dyodo E bike.

Riding the Mortirolo was still hard. 

“There was no holding back on the Mortirolo because the e bike gives you assistance, which just means you go faster, but it doesn’t mean you don’t go hard. I was on a less powerful model and I still had to work. I had ridden the Mortirolo three days earlier and I did it in 1:30 from bottom to the top on a regular bike. Then, I did it on the e-bike and I did it in 1:12, so I cut a huge amount of time off. I was still equally as knackered by the time I got to the top.”

[dinneR ★]

I think some people think of e-bikes as one thing, a commuter. Really, they can serve almost any purpose. Commuter, road bike, gravel bike, touring bike, hauler. I see a lot of extended e-bikes here. People hauling kids and groceries. I see the LBS owners riding one of these. One pedals, the other is in the bucket with their dogs. Mostly what I see is each bike on the road is one less car. 

How many people here ride with a friend or spouse that is not as fast as they are? An e-bike is the equalizer. I have spoken to multiple friends whose spouse/partner won't ride with them because they believe they are too slow. The e-bike solved this for my GF and myself. 

[ChrisL]

3 minutes ago, dennis said:

I think some people think of e-bikes as one thing, a commuter. Really, they can serve almost any purpose. Commuter, road bike, gravel bike, touring bike, hauler. I see a lot of extended e-bikes here. People hauling kids and groceries. I see the LBS owners riding one of these. One pedals, the other is in the bucket with their dogs. Mostly what I see is each bike on the road is one less car. 

How many people here ride with a friend or spouse that is not as fast as they are? An e-bike is the equalizer. I have spoken to multiple friends whose spouse/partner won't ride with them because they believe they are too slow. The e-bike solved this for my GF and myself. 

Yeah I think for me the value is as a commuter but I get that they can be used in numerous applications.

 I bet my wife would love to lay a beat down on me on an ebike!

[groupw]

I would love for WoW to come ride with me without having to hold back to the point riding is less fun for me. 

We don’t have to put quotes on “racing” with ebikes. There are only so many amp hours of energy available if they make sure the batteries are equal. How you use the energy is up to you. 

[Razors Edge ★]

37 minutes ago, groupw said:

I would love for WoW to come ride with me without having to hold back to the point riding is less fun for me. 

We don’t have to put quotes on “racing” with ebikes. There are only so many amp hours of energy available if they make sure the batteries are equal. How you use the energy is up to you. 

True, since we don't write motorcycle "racing" or stock car "racing" for those races, but we also have to be clear it definitely is NOT "bike racing".

Cool/useful tech in the Specialized bikes (might be interesting if @dennis or @Dottie have something similar):

You tell Smart Control how far you want to ride, or how long you want to ride, or how much battery life you’d like remaining when you’re done, and through an algorithm that recalculates every 10 seconds the app adjusts the pedal assist automatically to ensure you don’t run out of power. Say goodbye to range anxiety.

[Dottleshead ★]

When my wife started, she was amazingly slow and required constant stops.  It was incredibly annoying because I was in really good bike riding shape by then.  But it was far more important to share the activity with her than just go off on my own -- I could always do that.  Point is, I too started out like her -- and I too watched her gain in strength and endurance like I did.  While I'm out of 'good' bike riding shape today, and most of the times I am just a stronger rider than her, I will never forget the ride on the CDA Trail in Idaho at mile 78.  I was literally following her ass as she pulled me through those last 10 miles.

My advice?  Don't let the speed of your significant other stop you from sharing a wonderful experience even if it's just become more of a joy ride for you.  You have plenty of times to push yourself and your endurance without him/her.  I've had some great experiences with my wife on the bicycle and I wouldn't trade them just so I could say in my own head's record book that I'm a badass because I just rode those last 23 miles really fast.  After awhile, all those dumb rides turn into a blur anyway. I'm not out racing.  I'm out to ride.  I would much rather ride another 10 miles than to ride another mile per hour faster.

[dinneR ★]

1 hour ago, groupw said:

I would love for WoW to come ride with me without having to hold back to the point riding is less fun for me. 

We don’t have to put quotes on “racing” with ebikes. There are only so many amp hours of energy available if they make sure the batteries are equal. How you use the energy is up to you. 

Get her one. She will love it. My GF usually cackles when she passes me. And she has pulled me through some windy sections. 

Apparently there is an enduro series in Europe for e-bikes. Everyone has the same battery life and it is not enough to get you through the race. You have to pick when you want it the most.

54 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

True, since we don't write motorcycle "racing" or stock car "racing" for those races, but we also have to be clear it definitely is NOT "bike racing".

Cool/useful tech in the Specialized bikes (might be interesting if @dennis or @Dottie have something similar):

You tell Smart Control how far you want to ride, or how long you want to ride, or how much battery life you’d like remaining when you’re done, and through an algorithm that recalculates every 10 seconds the app adjusts the pedal assist automatically to ensure you don’t run out of power. Say goodbye to range anxiety.

That's an awesome feature. The xbike motion motor uses an app as well. It does not dole out assist though, just information. It will send you a message when you get home from work that says "You are close to your bike, you should go for a ride." The app gives you exact battery life and estimated mileage remaining. 

[maddmaxx ★]

3 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

Not really too relevant, since the cost is simply a relative thing for most.  Many folks spend $7k on a family vacation.  So, a week or two in Paris or 5+ years of commuting efficiency? 

Do you know how long it takes to make 7K in the real world?

[Razors Edge ★]

28 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

Do you know how long it takes to make 7K in the real world? 

Sure.

Is there a problem with spending $1k on bike vs $7k on a bike vs $20k on a bike? Or a car. Or a vacation. Or college. Or a boat. Or a kitchen remodel. Or a whatever?

I'd say the only problem is if folks can't pick something they will use, prioritize it properly within their budget, and get it if it makes sense.  Otherwise, what else is on your "approved" spending list?

[Prophet Zacharia]

4 hours ago, dennis said:

In the mountains, you appreciate lower gearing. 

I can understand this for a mountain bike, but for a road bike with a motor, is there a need to be geared so low? I rode 26+% Brasstown Bald with a 34x28, and while it was very hard, with a motor I would imagine it would have been much easier. Or am I over appreciating how much assist the motor provides on big climbs?

[ChrisL]

1 hour ago, maddmaxx said:

Do you know how long it takes to make 7K in the real world?

Who’s real world are you referring to? I know how long it would take in my world, Toms maybe a few days, others maybe a few months...

My bitch sister would always refer to her situation as the “real world”. If your situation didn’t match hers you were living in some alternate universe...

[groupw]

21 hours ago, Razors Edge said:

True, since we don't write motorcycle "racing" or stock car "racing" for those races, but we also have to be clear it definitely is NOT "bike racing".

Cool/useful tech in the Specialized bikes (might be interesting if @dennis or @Dottie have something similar):

You tell Smart Control how far you want to ride, or how long you want to ride, or how much battery life you’d like remaining when you’re done, and through an algorithm that recalculates every 10 seconds the app adjusts the pedal assist automatically to ensure you don’t run out of power. Say goodbye to range anxiety.

I used to race RC cars. Back then, the electric cars ran 5 minute races except for the smaller 1/12th scale class which had 8 minute races. With the battery tech of that time, 8 minutes was stretching them to the limit. Your goal was to manage your race so you finished just as the batteries “dumped”. Some were faster at the start and slowed significantly as the race neared the end. Others were more steady in their pace and would close on the rabbits at the end because they managed their power better. It made for some exciting finishes. 

EBike races should be similar. There should not be enough battery to use it the entire race. You have to manage it and use it to either improve on your weaknesses or maximize your strengths... or a bit of both. The rider is still key. 

[ChrisL]

14 minutes ago, groupw said:

I used to race RC cars. Back then, the electric cars ran 5 minute races except for the smaller 1/12th scale class which had 8 minute races. With the battery tech of that time, 8 minutes was stretching them to the limit. Your goal was to manage your race so you finished just as the batteries “dumped”. Some were faster at the start and slowed significantly as the race neared the end. Others were more steady in their pace and would close on the rabbits at the end because they managed their power better. It made for some exciting finishes. 

EBike races should be similar. There should not be enough battery to use it the entire race. You have to manage it and use it to either improve on your weaknesses or maximize your strengths... or a bit of both. The rider is still key. 

Last weekend I was watching some of the Formula E race and it was pretty interesting.  Much of what you mention above was discussed as was heat & it’s affect on battery.   Very similar to fuel management just battery.

The part I couldn’t wrap my head around was the sound.  Just a high pitched whine, no roar of the engines...

[groupw]

5 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Last weekend I was watching some of the Formula E race and it was pretty interesting.  Much of what you mention above was discussed as was heat & it’s affect on battery.   Very similar to fuel management just battery.

The part I couldn’t wrap my head around was the sound.  Just a high pitched whine, no roar of the engines...

Agreed on the sound! The 2 most invigorating race engine sounds, for me, have been the sounds of F1 cars in the early 2000s when V10 engines were turning nearly 20,000 RPMs! It was hard to associate the sound with the cars on the track until you had a couple hours of acclimation. 

The 2nd was Wally Dallenbach's Trans Am Mustang echoing off the walls of downtown Denver in the late 1980s. It had a sound like no other on the track that day!

The sound of Formula E sounds like a scaled-up version of the electric RC cars. I appreciate it for what it is, but compared to the gas RC cars! The little 3.5 cc engines could turn 30,000 RPM and make around 3HP! The sound was between F1 engines and a weedeater gone off the deep end! OK.....3 great engine sounds!

[onbike1939]

Ebikes are great for extending your cycling life. Having one allowed me to spend time with my touring club for a few years longer....and that was important to me after having been with them for over forty years. 

I had a Moulton TSR which had 27 gears converted to E-assist and it was absolutely great until even using this became difficult. Again, for those who have a wife who tends to be slower than yourself when cycling, this is a huge benefit and considerably cheaper than swapping your wife for a newer, faster model.....dear me yes.

[Dottleshead ★]

You're the best old man.