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Should Vintage Bike Dialogue Be Moved to P&R?


ChrisL

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26 minutes ago, wilbur said:

Correct. 

I changed after finding a gooey mess stuck to the rim inside a tire I was changing.  Once I realized how close that might have been to a blowout at 45 mph I decided that disc brakes made sense.

Except for the TT bike I've stayed away from rim brakes ever since.

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4 hours ago, ChrisL said:

Seems to be a flash point with some and ends up into a I’m right & you are wrong dialogue.

I think any references to steel frames & rim brakes get moved.

All in favor?

...starting this other thread is a typical reaction.  People who lose an argument on the internet are always doing that. :) 

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58 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...starting this other thread is a typical reaction.  People who lose an argument on the internet are always doing that. :) 

I thought we agreed to disagree.  But since you put it that way.... ????????

Who’s winning now!?!? 

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1 hour ago, ChrisL said:

I thought we agreed to disagree.  But since you put it that way.... ????????

Who’s winning now!?!? 

...I think I first saw a thread on a bicycle forum about dics breaks on road bikes in 2010 or 2011.  Since then, I've seen at least a hundred of them on various sites, including but not limited to the road forum in the bicycle forum that must not be named here.  They all have had people who think like you, offering opinions about how "rim brakes suck, yada yada yada" and an equally determined group who think they're an answer looking for a problem.

Do a Google machine search for "road bikes disc brakes" and a lot of them will show up. It's now 2019.  If discs on road bikes is such an incredible advantage it's taking quite a while to catch on.

 

What seems to be driving the trend right now is manufacturers who realized they can get a whole lot of people to buy a lot of new equipment in a switch to discs, and the general trend to CF wheel rims.  I don't ride CF wheel rims, I will never ride CF wheel rims,  and my brakes all work as designed here.  I would certainly look at discs were I shopping for some sort of new MTB,  Cross, or straight up downhill bike.  They make little sense to me considering what I do on a road bike, which is mostly to try to ride 20 or 30 miles as fast as I can, with some stops to stretch and refill the water bottle.  For what I want to do on a bicycle, dics breaks make no sense.  YMMV

 

They do appear to be getting better. The newer higher end discs pay a lot more attention to heat transfer, cooling, and uses of different materials than a straight steel disc. I still don't need them. And even though I'm old, I can still ride a reasonably fast 20 miles.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Page Turner said:

For what I want to do on a bicycle, dics breaks make no sense.

Other than incompatibility with all of your other bikes and wheel sets, is there a downside to discs on a road bike? Weight? Cost? I don’t think I’ve shopped for a new road bike since 2011, so I am behind on the issue.

I understand your statements that you feel you have adequate stopping power and don’t run rims that NEED discs, but... If you had no bikes at home, no wheels, would you really chose caliper brakes on a new road bike?

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5 hours ago, Page Turner said:

...I think I first saw a thread on a bicycle forum about dics breaks on road bikes in 2010 or 2011.  Since then, I've seen at least a hundred of them on various sites, including but not limited to the road forum in the bicycle forum that must not be named here.  They all have had people who think like you, offering opinions about how "rim brakes suck, yada yada yada" and an equally determined group who think they're an answer looking for a problem.

Do a Google machine search for "road bikes disc brakes" and a lot of them will show up. It's now 2019.  If discs on road bikes is such an incredible advantage it's taking quite a while to catch on.

 

What seems to be driving the trend right now is manufacturers who realized they can get a whole lot of people to buy a lot of new equipment in a switch to discs, and the general trend to CF wheel rims.  I don't ride CF wheel rims, I will never ride CF wheel rims,  and my brakes all work as designed here.  I would certainly look at discs were I shopping for some sort of new MTB,  Cross, or straight up downhill bike.  They make little sense to me considering what I do on a road bike, which is mostly to try to ride 20 or 30 miles as fast as I can, with some stops to stretch and refill the water bottle.  For what I want to do on a bicycle, dics breaks make no sense.  YMMV

 

They do appear to be getting better. The newer higher end discs pay a lot more attention to heat transfer, cooling, and uses of different materials than a straight steel disc. I still don't need them. And even though I'm old, I can still ride a reasonably fast 20 miles.

 

 

 

If I lived in flat land I'd agree on the any sort of brakes will do.  This however is the topography around here.  It's one reason that I use the rails to trails to get from town to town as that is usually a flatish route.  Once off the trails however the landscape abounds with roads that have sudden drops where one can easily hit 40+ in seconds just coasting.  They are not long compared to mountain roads in the west or even in the Northeast such as Vermont, but if you want to make the stop sign at the bottom of the hill, you are going to generate a lot of heat.  Those are 25 ft contour lines.  If you look toward the middle of the map just north of where the highway crosses from left to right you will see a double hill complex.  I live on the top of the larger one.  It's a half mile from the very top down to the connecting road just north of the highway........in the middle it's a 200 foot drop in about a quarter of a mile.  That's the start and end of rides from home.

5d303a5f_600a_24.jpg

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I think the key point with road discs isn’t are they better but are they necessary?  

Anyone who has ridden road discs knows they stop better in all conditions.  Wet, dry, flat or mountain roads discs just stop you better.  I’m also referring to modern discs that have better heat dissipation.

However what I believe @Page Turner is getting at is, are they necessary?  I’ll agree that for many road bike riders, no they are not necessary.  I still ride rim brakes on my road bike and have no intention to change.  They work for me given my riding needs & conditions.  Rim brakes also still work at the highest level which is why they are still being used in the pro peleton.  

So if they still work at the highest level why switch at all?  I do agree with page Turner that the bike industry is moving to discs and  like it or not they are the future. But due to the amount of rim braked bikes out there they will never go away completely.  What I disagree with is the notion that since I don’t need  road discs, they aren’t necessary. People made the same arguments with nearly every advancement in technology & safety & its just hogwash. 

Knowing what I know now, if I were looking for a new road bike and had comparable bikes at similar price points with & without discs I’d go with road disc. They just work better and as stopping could be a matter of life & death then why not have the better braking.

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42 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

However what I believe @Page Turner is getting at is, are they necessary?  I’ll agree that for many road bike riders, no they are not necessary.  I still ride rim brakes on my road bike and have no intention to change.  They work for me given my riding needs & conditions.  Rim brakes also still work at the highest level which is why they are still being used in the pro peleton.  

Yep. I think @Page Turner could even get by with a fixie with no brakes at all.

All my bikes except my 25+yr old commuter have the original brake pads.  I'm very easy on brakes (similar to my car brakes).  Disc brakes would be valuable in TWO distinct ways that are both a very small percentage of my cycling, hence the reason I have no need to upgrade to them on my road bikes.  One area is wet weather braking, and while I ride in wet conditions (after rain storms, during snow melt season, or getting caught in a deluge), as a percentage of my riding where it is BOTH wet and requiring me to do a hard stop the % would be well under 1%.  In fact, about a month ago I tweaked my route to avoid the fast descent that ended at a T intersection SPECIFICALLY because it was very wet and the chance for more rain was likely. I stuck to a relatively flat ride and my rim brakes were plenty adequate. 

The second situation is where the roads are steep and strong consistent braking is important, but again, for me, that's a smaller percentage of my riding than it would be for someone like @dennis.  I have a few favorite hills that are easily 40+ descents, but for them I choose my top speed and braking approach depending upon how they are laid out. For the descents that end at a T intersection where I have the stop but the main road doesn't, I sit up early to catch some air resistance and brake early enough that I can scrub speed and dissipate heat.  On other descents I can bomb down, there is no intersection or stop before the road levels out or climbs, so no braking is necessary (or desired). 

But come the day when I get a new road bike, the disc brake version will be the one I get.  There is no downside to them, and enough reasons to see they are simply a better way to stop a bike.

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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Yep. I think @Page Turner could even get by with a fixie with no brakes at all.

...you can't ride that way here. The Man will bust you if you don't have at least one functioning brake.  I built up the tarck bike with a two speed coaster brake SRAM hub on the back because of this outrageous governmental overreach.  Somewhere in the Constitution, I'm sure this is illegal governmental interference with my rights as a private citizen. But it's California. That's how we roll in California. ::biker:

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4 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

But come the day when I get a new road bike, the disc brake version will be the one I get.  There is no downside to them, and enough reasons to see they are simply a better way to stop a bike.

This is the key point. This is the direction the industry is moving because it’s a better braking system.  

People have been retro grouches forever and that’s fine. But just because black & white TV works for you doesn’t mean it’s better. My 1960 Impala gets me to the store just fine and I never got in a wreck. So why do I need seat belts, airbags & ABS...  

When you boil it down it’s the I don’t need it therefore it’s not necessary mentality.

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I have cantis only my road bike. Descending in the mountains at 40 mph is a bit sketchy especially in open range areas. F'ing cattle cut you off. I guess that's why they are future hamburgers and we ride fancy machines with two wheels. 

I also have a rack, somebody has to carry the beer. 

I say ride the bike that gets you on the bike riding more. 

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9 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...you can't ride that way here. The Man will bust you if you don't have at least one functioning brake.  I built up the tarck bike with a two speed coaster brake SRAM hub on the back because of this outrageous governmental overreach.  Somewhere in the Constitution, I'm sure this is illegal governmental interference with my rights as a private citizen. But it's California. That's how we roll in California. ::biker:

Coaster brakes are fine until your chain pops off and suddenly your bike is very Flinstonian. I'd rather not go through that again.

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9 minutes ago, ChrisL said:

This is the key point. This is the direction the industry is moving because it’s a better braking system.  

People have been retro grouches forever and that’s fine. But just because black & white TV works for you doesn’t mean it’s better. My 1960 Impala gets me to the store just fine and I never got in a wreck. So why do I need seat belts, airbags & ABS...  

When you boil it down it’s the I don’t need it therefore it’s not necessary mentality.

...slow your roll, man. :) 

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4 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

If I lived in flat land I'd agree on the any sort of brakes will do.  This however is the topography around here.  It's one reason that I use the rails to trails to get from town to town as that is usually a flatish route.  Once off the trails however the landscape abounds with roads that have sudden drops where one can easily hit 40+ in seconds just coasting.  They are not long compared to mountain roads in the west or even in the Northeast such as Vermont, but if you want to make the stop sign at the bottom of the hill, you are going to generate a lot of heat.  Those are 25 ft contour lines.  If you look toward the middle of the map just north of where the highway crosses from left to right you will see a double hill complex.  I live on the top of the larger one.  It's a half mile from the very top down to the connecting road just north of the highway........in the middle it's a 200 foot drop in about a quarter of a mile.  That's the start and end of rides from home.

5d303a5f_600a_24.jpg

404 - page not found.

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2 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:
34 minutes ago, Dottie said:

404 - page not found.

Don't click on it, just look at it.  If you can't see it perhaps you are using a Microsoft product. 

34 minutes ago, Dottie said:

404 - page not found.

 

@Page Turner has commented SEVERAL times in this thread. Maybe @Dottie just has him on ignore?

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Just now, Dottie said:

I will not put anyone on the Interwebz on ignore. Certainly not here. Definitely not Paige.

Can you really not see the map?  It shows up quite clearly in my post on my screen.  It is a zoom of the original page and has dropped it's link because of that.  Perhaps it's invisible to more than just you.

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1 minute ago, Dottie said:

It's pretty small. That's why I tried clicking on it.

Copy and past topographic maps just don't work well on a phone.  I didn't link to it because it was a whole series of maps.  Suffice it to say that the landscape around here looks like an egg crate foam pad.  The trail goes around while the roads just go up, down, up, down, up, down.  It was very difficult for me to find secondary roads back when I wanted some long straight flats to practice on with the TT bike.

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Here on the flatlands even the no-name calipers on my OCR1 were adequate. I had a couple moments on descents while riding on mountains that got exciting mainly because I was too aggressive for the corner with brakes on hand. 

2 years ago, I bought the Stradalli with Ultegra calipers. Night and day difference in stopping ability! First time I hit the brakes hard, I might have had an involuntary dismount if not for being clipped in!

For my current needs, rim brakes are fine. I see the writing on the wall that my next bike will likely have discs. 

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Just now, Page Turner said:

...I do have 4 wheel disc brakes on both of the cars.  But when I'm riding those, I have to stop at stop signs and red lights. :(

Ahh the dilemma retro grouch must face... Drum brakes are perfectly fine for your needs but just aren’t an option anymore... Do you only listen to AM radio, because you know FM is digitized now?  Let’s not even start on Apple play.... ?

You know I love ya @Page Turner, even tho you are set in your ancient ways...

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Just now, Dottie said:

They don't have those on buses. 

Remember when you would buy a super long phone cord and be able to walk into another room?  And then in the 80's when you got a cordless phone?  Damn, those were fun.  I also liked how you could pick up the phone when someone else was on the line and participate or just listen to the conversation.  It never got old having my older sisters yelling, "GET OFF THE LINE!!!!".  Too fun.

It is also interesting that we used to have these elaborate "future" phones where they were video calls - like phones hooked to TVs or similar - but now, that's just that little "Facetime" button that everyone now has access to wherever they are. No elaborate set up required.  Even on buses!!!!

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1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Remember when you would buy a super long phone cord and be able to walk into another room?  And then in the 80's when you got a cordless phone?  Damn, those were fun.  I also liked how you could pick up the phone when someone else was on the line and participate or just listen to the conversation.  It never got old having my older sisters yelling, "GET OFF THE LINE!!!!".  Too fun.

It is also interesting that we used to have these elaborate "future" phones where they were video calls - like phones hooked to TVs or similar - but now, that's just that little "Facetime" button that everyone now has access to wherever they are. No elaborate set up required.  Even on buses!!!!

I remember talking to an old GF back in the day and her brothers doing emergency operator break throughs because, you know they needed to ask mom a question... Dicks...

I really liked the girl and her parents but had it worked out I would have had to kick both their asses.

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6 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Remember when you would buy a super long phone cord and be able to walk into another room?  And then in the 80's when you got a cordless phone?  Damn, those were fun.  I also liked how you could pick up the phone when someone else was on the line and participate or just listen to the conversation.  It never got old having my older sisters yelling, "GET OFF THE LINE!!!!".  Too fun.

It is also interesting that we used to have these elaborate "future" phones where they were video calls - like phones hooked to TVs or similar - but now, that's just that little "Facetime" button that everyone now has access to wherever they are. No elaborate set up required.  Even on buses!!!!

....I still remember the days before TV remotes, when my old man would make me get up to change the channel.  But we were 'appy in those days. Try telling it to these kids now ! :angry:

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2 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

....I still remember the days before TV remotes, when my old man would make me get up to change the channel.  But we were 'appy in those days. Try telling it to these kids now ! :angry:

When my kids were little they got a kick when I told them our tv had remotes back in the day.  They did?  Yeah, “Chris channel 7!”.  

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Just now, ChrisL said:

When my kids were little they got a kick when I told them our tv had remotes back in the day.  They did?  Yeah, “Chris channel 7!”.  

We got cable TV when I was 10, but the only "drops" for it were in my parent's bedroom and our main TV room.  Other TVs still had rabbit ears!  So, as a little kid, and even a little bit into my teens, I often got channel switching duty AND "fix the picture" duties.

Ah, happy times!

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