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donkpow

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Today's fragmented stage demonstrates one of my pet peeves with grand tour racing, proper team effort is missing. What is going on is that teams simply try to stay in the game and let individuals run their own race. "Teams" aren't racing, individuals are. Hate what you want to about the Armstrong era but Armstrong teams dominated racing strategically and tactically. Most riders avoid team effort and the traditional 'Tour' discourages effective teamwork.

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33 minutes ago, donkpow said:

Today's fragmented stage demonstrates one of my pet peeves with grand tour racing, proper team effort is missing. What is going on is that teams simply try to stay in the game and let individuals run their own race. "Teams" aren't racing, individuals are. Hate what you want to about the Armstrong era but Armstrong teams dominated racing strategically and tactically. Most riders avoid team effort and the traditional 'Tour' discourages effective teamwork.

Google "cycling Team Sky"

People have been complaining since Sky came around that their style of team racing is so boring for cycling.  Personally, I kind of like the every man for himself style of racing.  But then again I am new to riding and don't really know anything

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31 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

Google "cycling Team Sky"

People have been complaining since Sky came around that their style of team racing is so boring for cycling.  Personally, I kind of like the every man for himself style of racing.  But then again I am new to riding and don't really know anything

Sports is not really my bailiwick and I certainly don't follow cycling but I don't see justification in calling the TdF team racing. One of the comments by Phil today was that viewers enjoy these types of fragmented races. I don't think that any one team is failing to organize a team effort. Race organizers have set up with race points peppered throughout and television is focused on anything but team efforts. That's all well and good and makes good TV but it falls short in organized sports terms, IMO.

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I don’t get it.  

This tour has been really interesting, as the teams are trying out tactics big time, looking for answers.  One in particular backfired in a big way, others are trying to solve a riddle or find ways back to main objectives.  Lots of good teamwork so far, then it is up to the big guns. 

The more you follow it, the more the nuance makes sense, and every piece is important.  Sometimes it is more like chess than chess. 

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1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

I don’t get it.  This tour has been really interesting, as the teams are trying out tactics big time, looking for answers.  One in particular backfired in a big way, others are trying to solve a riddle or find ways back to main objectives.  Lots of good teamwork so far, then it is up to the big guns. 

I guess it depends on how you define team effort and goals. As I said in the first post, teams keep riders in the game but that's about it. If a team doesn't exert its presence in a capable and visible manner, it's not racing. I suppose with teams playing it safe you could see some degree failure and success. You'll have to look for it. Team directors should be plying their team's strengths in beating the course, the peloton, and stronger individuals. Crush them!

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1 minute ago, donkpow said:

I guess it depends on how you define team effort and goals. As I said in the first post, teams keep riders in the game but that's about it. If a team doesn't exert its presence in a capable and visible manner, it's not racing. I suppose with teams playing it safe you could see some degree failure and success. You'll have to look for it. Team directors should be plying their team's strengths in beating the course, the peloton, and stronger individuals. Crush them!

You are missing it.  One aspect is that in other sports is that you have a bad play or half, whatever, you line up next time and you can turn things around.  

In crucial stages, every move has significance, and mistakes many times have huge significance that are unrecoverable in the GC. Team tactics can get really good riders way past their abilities, and poor tactics can sink excellent riders. 

Sure you have other stages and goals, but the GC is where it is at, and you need team tactics to be spot on in order to podium, or even be in the top ten. 

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1 minute ago, Randomguy said:

You are missing it.  One aspect is that in other sports is that you have a bad play or half, whatever, you line up next time and you can turn things around.  

In crucial stages, every move has significance, and mistakes many times have huge significance that are unrecoverable in the GC. Team tactics can get really good riders way past their abilities, and poor tactics can sink excellent riders. 

Sure you have other stages and goals, but the GC is where it is at, and you need team tactics to be spot on in order to podium, or even be in the top ten. 

In that case, today's stage is a total anomaly. I don't think so. I think it was inevitable and it is only the lack of consolidated effort to race as teams that other days have not played out in a similar way. Directors aren't concentrating on team strategy and tactics as much as they should. It's all about individual performances. Name dropping.

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2 minutes ago, donkpow said:

In that case, today's stage is a total anomaly. I don't think so. I think it was inevitable and it is only the lack of consolidated effort to race as teams that other days have not played out in a similar way. Directors aren't concentrating on team strategy and tactics as much as they should. It's all about individual performances. Name dropping.

Teams set the table, but the guys with talent have to do the heavy lifting at the end.  You don’t really have a chance to take the GC without a good team and the right tactics. 

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51 minutes ago, Randomguy said:

Teams set the table, but the guys with talent have to do the heavy lifting at the end.  You don’t really have a chance to take the GC without a good team and the right tactics. 

This is what I am saying. The status quo is that teams simply keep their riders in the game. You might as well use the team bus.

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42 minutes ago, donkpow said:

This is what I am saying. The status quo is that teams simply keep their riders in the game. You might as well use the team bus.

Nah, you use the team you have to advance your cause, but also to isolate and tire out less astute teams and their riders. Attrition in action.  You play your cards right, you get your riders to make moves when the other guys are worn out, and you pick up time. 

 

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1 hour ago, Randomguy said:

Nah, you use the team you have to advance your cause, but also to isolate and tire out less astute teams and their riders. Attrition in action.  You play your cards right, you get your riders to make moves when the other guys are worn out, and you pick up time. 

 

This is too easy, you are making all my points for me. So there you go, that's the team competition. Stay in the race until everybody gets tired then win. Why didn't I think of that?

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3 hours ago, donkpow said:

This is too easy, you are making all my points for me. So there you go, that's the team competition. Stay in the race until everybody gets tired then win. Why didn't I think of that?

You are right, just line around 20 of them and blow a whistle. :wacko:

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