Were The Hippies Wrong About Anything?

[Razors Edge ★]

...except for personal hygiene?  Seems like they were pretty spot on about most things.

[Further]

The big thing the hippies did was question everything, and try anything. There were mistakes made and discoveries discovered.

 

 

[Page Turner]

...we were absolutely wrong about changing the world into something closer to nature and more humane. In that, we failed miserably. And that business about "All you need is love..." that ended up sucking hind tit big time.

[Razors Edge ★]

4 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

we were absolutely wrong  about changing the world into something closer to nature and more humane. In that, we failed miserably.

Being "wrong" isn't the same as failing.  Were the hippies right to try, and it's a shame they failed? Or were they wrong and we are lucky they failed?

[Further]

2 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...we were absolutely wrong about changing the world into something closer to nature and more humane. In that, we failed miserably.

Nature is not very humane...

The food prey pyramid is not fiction

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, Further said:

Nature is not very humane... 

The food prey pyramid is not fiction 

So a vote for more inhumanity?  Cool. Seems we got that covered in spades.

[Page Turner]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Being "wrong" isn't the same as failing.  Were the hippies right to try, and it's a shame they failed? Or were they wrong and we are lucky they failed?

... trying and failing just means we had unrealistic plans on how it might be accomplished.  That, and a poor appreciation of population demographics. WE're probably lucky in the overall sense, because none of the hippies I knew had much of a grasp on how bad things were in the third world, and how much worse they were going to get.  Except for a few who had been to India. Most of them got some sort of dysentery or other difficult to cure gastric disease.  Those guys came back with a new appreciation of the challenges.

[Randomguy]

They were wrong about bell bottoms. 

[Page Turner]

Just now, Bag of Dicks said:

They were wrong about bell bottoms. 

...yet it did not seem so at the time.  Very curious.

[Further]

 

Just now, Razors Edge said:

So a vote for more inhumanity?  Cool. Seems we got that covered in spades.

  Nature is instinct, animals do what they do, although watching a cat play with its food is disturbing.

Humans choose to be cruel, or kind, we make a decision, nature just does. People can rise higher and sink lower than animals because we choose to.

[Further]

3 minutes ago, Bag of Dicks said:

They were wrong about bell bottoms. 

Right about mini skirts....

[Further]

It turned out that VD was real, and serious...

[Dottleshead ★]

I dunno.  The non-hippie crowd produced the likes of Richard M Nixon and Dan Quayle.  But then the hippies did get stuck with John Lennon, so there's that.

[maddmaxx ★]

If the hippies begat the yuppies than they were a total failure.

[Ralphie ★]

11 minutes ago, maddmaxx said:

If the hippies begat the yuppies than they were a total failure.

The hipsters are no prize either, athough at least they do appreciate good beer, except for the ones who drink PBR..

[late]

It  took a while, but I think I got this down. This is to start the learning..

There was only one hippie, and his name is Wavy Gravy.

[Tizeye]

Free sex

Seriously now, is it really free?

[donkpow]

It is good when ideals are at least expressed.

[late]

20 minutes ago, Tizeye said:

Free sex

Seriously now, is it really free?

That's magazine talk.

The pill took the primal fear out of sex.

The male kids born in the 1940s made out like bandits. They were in the first part of the Baby Boom. Back then girls went after guys who were marriage material. So if you were a few years older with a job, once the pill showed up you had females hunting you.

Supply and demand.. "small changes in demographics make for big changes in behavior."

[MoseySusan]

There was a group of hippies who killed a lot of people in LA in hopes of starting a race war. They were very wrong. 

[Dottleshead ★]

1 hour ago, roadsue said:

There was a group of hippies who killed a lot of people in LA in hopes of starting a race war. They were very wrong. 

Too much LSD in the desert.

[late]

2 hours ago, roadsue said:

There was a group of hippies who killed a lot of people in LA in hopes of starting a race war. They were very wrong. 

I assume you mean Manson.

This gets back to what hippie means. In one of the two threads we have going today, I said there had been only one hippie, Wavy Gravy. The reason for that was to try and get at what people were seeking in trying to create a counter culture. Wavy was the guy that said "What I have in mind is breakfast in bed for 400,00." He did that sort of thing a lot.

Manson wasn't a hippie. He was a White Nationalist psycho that started a cult. It simply isn't possible to get further away from what I think of as a hippie.

[Page Turner]

5 minutes ago, late said:

I assume you mean Manson.

This gets back to what hippie means. In one of the two threads we have going today, I said there had been only one hippie, Wavy Gravy. The reason for that was to try and get at what people were seeking in trying to create a counter culture. Wavy was the guy that said "What I have in mind is breakfast in bed for 400,00." He did that sort of thing a lot.

Manson wasn't a hippie. He was a White Nationalist psycho that started a cult. It simply isn't possible to get further away from what I think of as a hippie.

...no true Scotsman, laddie.

[Dottleshead ★]

11 minutes ago, late said:

Manson wasn't a hippie.

Maybe not, but his dopy followers were. 

[late]

Just now, Page Turner said:

...no true Scotsman, laddie.

Which means you could call Hitler a hippie.

Like I keep having to say, this comes down to definitions, what's yours.

[Page Turner]

1 minute ago, late said:

what's yours.

...it's certainly not that there was only one real hippie.  That would exclude me, and I know that's wrong.

[late]

2 minutes ago, Page Turner said:

...it's certainly not that there was only one real hippie.  That would exclude me, and I know that's wrong.

Wake me up if you ever find an actual definition.

Back then, the country was real busy killing people, poisoning them, taking advantage of them, etc, etc.

The original intent was to make things better, and no one did a better job of incorporating that idea into their lives than Wavy Gravy.

Maybe I'm crazy (by your definition of hippie, assuming you do actually have one), but one of the ideas running around back then is that we should embrace life, not death. Eros, not Thanatos. There aren't a lot of people more thanatotic than Manson.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, late said:

Wake me up if you ever find an actual definition.

Back then, the country was real busy killing people, poisoning them, taking advantage of them, etc, etc.

The original intent was to make things better, and no one did a better job of incorporating that idea into their lives than Wavy Gravy.

Maybe I'm crazy (by your definition of hippie, assuming you do actually have one), but one of the ideas running around back then is that we should embrace life, not death. Eros, not Thanatos. There aren't a lot of people more thanatotic than Manson.

Late, I think it is far easier to just accept that hippies were good for nothing and move on.  We've got the "hipsters" and Millenials we can discuss next, and you're just drawing this discussion out!

[late]

Just now, Razors Edge said:

Late, I think it is far easier to just accept that hippies were good for nothing and move on.  We've got the "hipsters" and Millenials we can discuss next, and you're just drawing this discussion out!

Translation into plain English:

Ok, you've won, please let us leave with our dignity.

I'll think about it... done.

No.

[Razors Edge ★]

Just now, late said:

Translation into plain English:

Ok, you've won, please let us leave with our dignity.

I'll think about it... done.

No.

Well then you need to explain the bell bottom thing!

[late]

9 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Well then you need to explain the bell bottom thing!

Show me a generation that didn't do something regrettable in fashion.

Truth in advertising moment, yes kids, I did buy one (and just one) pair of bell bottoms. I have very short legs, and it was not a good look.

The young place stress on society and country. It's inevitable, and there were a ton of Boomers. Add to that that this was the first generation to come of age after we became the clearly dominant empire. Add to that the fact we were told a tidal wave of BS. We were told we were going to change the world, and when we tried, all sorts of interesting things happened, some violent.

Power in an empire is top down. Power in a democracy is bottom up. Empire is a mortal enemy of democracy. We learned that one the hard way.

[Dottleshead ★]

If the hippies produced latte, then they may have been wrong. 

[Razors Edge ★]

21 minutes ago, late said:

Show me a generation that didn't do something regrettable in fashion.

Come on!!!!  Compared to the civilized folks of the era, hippies had to be the worst segment of the population of that time.  The bell bottoms are just ONE indication, but surely folks here know of all the others.

[late]

15 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Come on!!!!  Compared to the civilized folks of the era, hippies had to be the worst segment of the population of that time.  The bell bottoms are just ONE indication, but surely folks here know of all the others.

There was a lot of ugly running around back then.

[Razors Edge ★]

1 minute ago, late said:

There was a lot of ugly running around back then. 

Exactly! Those damn hippies hated clothing and showers!

[late]

1 minute ago, Razors Edge said:

Exactly! Those damn hippies hated clothing and showers!

Depends on which subgroup you're talking about. The kids with expensive clothes were clean.

[Page Turner]

6 hours ago, late said:

It  took a while, but I think I got this down. This is to start the learning..

There was only one hippie, and his name is Wavy Gravy.

 

4 hours ago, roadsue said:

There was a group of hippies who killed a lot of people in LA in hopes of starting a race war. They were very wrong. 

 

1 hour ago, late said:

I assume you mean Manson.

This gets back to what hippie means. In one of the two threads we have going today, I said there had been only one hippie, Wavy Gravy. The reason for that was to try and get at what people were seeking in trying to create a counter culture. Wavy was the guy that said "What I have in mind is breakfast in bed for 400,00." He did that sort of thing a lot.

Manson wasn't a hippie. He was a White Nationalist psycho that started a cult. It simply isn't possible to get further away from what I think of as a hippie.

 

1 hour ago, Page Turner said:

...no true Scotsman, laddie.

 

1 hour ago, late said:

Which means you could call Hitler a hippie.

Like I keep having to say, this comes down to definitions, what's yours.

 

1 hour ago, late said:

Wake me up if you ever find an actual definition.

Back then, the country was real busy killing people, poisoning them, taking advantage of them, etc, etc.

The original intent was to make things better, and no one did a better job of incorporating that idea into their lives than Wavy Gravy.

Maybe I'm crazy (by your definition of hippie, assuming you do actually have one), but one of the ideas running around back then is that we should embrace life, not death. Eros, not Thanatos. There aren't a lot of people more thanatotic than Manson.

 

...here's your argument, paraphrased: the only real Christian was Jesus, and all the bad shit that has happened in the name of Christianity wasn't because of Christians.

Mr. Hugh Romney was an ex clown with a bad back.  He was pleasant to encounter in person, but he was hardly the only real hippie.  If you want to pick just one, go with Walt Whitman. For someone who is forever quoting Stuart Brand on how we are godlike, (one of his less accurate and more unfortunate quotes), you sure did miss a lot of what got published in Co-evolution Quarterly.  I hear this giant whooshing sound every time you hold forth on a topic like this.

[Page Turner]

57 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Come on!!!!  Compared to the civilized folks of the era, hippies had to be the worst segment of the population of that time.  The bell bottoms are just ONE indication, but surely folks here know of all the others.

 

[maddmaxx ★]

1 hour ago, Razors Edge said:

Well then you need to explain the bell bottom thing!

What was wrong with bell bottoms.  I believe that a reasonably large segment of society wore them for no particular fashion reason at all.  Those who did spanned generations, not just the hippies.

Why, in an average crowd picture, you could probably find one in six wearing them.

[Dottleshead ★]

Just now, maddmaxx said:

What was wrong with bell bottoms.  I believe that a reasonably large segment of society wore them for no particular fashion reason at all.  Those who did spanned generations, not just the hippies.

Those suckers got wet and gross... at least up here in the PNW. But it is true the last time I wore them I was a punk in junior high.

[maddmaxx ★]

Just now, Dottie said:

Those suckers got wet and gross... at least up here in the PNW. But it is true the last time I wore them I was a punk in junior high.

I might have even kept some after I got out of the Navy.

[Dottleshead ★]

This is lengthy but quite informative. Pretty awesome, actually.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_hippie_movement

[late]

1 hour ago, Page Turner said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

...here's your argument, paraphrased: the only real Christian was Jesus, and all the bad shit that has happened in the name of Christianity wasn't because of Christians.

Mr. Hugh Romney was an ex clown with a bad back.  He was pleasant to encounter in person, but he was hardly the only real hippie.  If you want to pick just one, go with Walt Whitman. For someone who is forever quoting Stuart Brand on how we are godlike, (one of his less accurate and more unfortunate quotes), you sure did miss a lot of what got published in Co-evolution Quarterly.  I hear this giant whooshing sound every time you hold forth on a topic like this.

Still waiting for a coherent reply...

But we both know that isn't coming, not only no definition, but placing that in the larger context.

About Wavy Gravy, that was to highlight the eros/thanatos thing. You keep pretending I was being literal, when I was clearly using him as an exemplar.

You don't understand what Stewart was getting at, with the "We are as gods" line. But that's OK. I can start a thread about it, if you want, but I doubt anyone here would enjoy it. Being a god really sucks.

I started out saying there were several definitions of what it meant to be a hippie. Perhaps I should have said flavors, and SB was definitely one of those flavors. But he was also trying to make the world a better place.

Perfectly willing to talk about SB, and try to place him in context, but you'll have to do better than "whooshing sound".

If you can.

 

http://sb.longnow.org/SB_homepage/Home.html

[Razors Edge ★]

9 hours ago, maddmaxx said:

If the hippies begat the yuppies than they were a total failure.

Yeah. A lot to hate about "young", "urban", and "professional", eh?  Those effers derailed this country!

[late]

6 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Yeah. A lot to hate about "young", "urban", and "professional", eh?  Those effers derailed this country!

Way back in the 80s, Republicans went to great lengths to woo the professional class away from blue collar Dems. They did it,  yuppies were one of the results, or side effects, if you wish.

If you did deductions, you could buy an expensive car in the 80s and do a deduction on the car payments. I became aware of this when we went to a nice restaurant and were seated close to yuppies, who were bragging about all the bennies they were getting.

[Razors Edge ★]

2 minutes ago, late said:

Way back in the 80s, Republicans went to great lengths to woo the professional class away from blue collar Dems. They did it,  yuppies were one of the results, or side effects, if you wish.

If you did deductions, you could buy an expensive car in the 80s and do a deduction on the car payments. I became aware of this when we went to a nice restaurant and were seated close to yuppies, who were bragging about all the bennies they were getting. 

Crap, are we blaming all of the group for some of its members again????

Sure, it holds up when discussing Texas or CAnada, but yuppies, too???? I call BS.

[Dottleshead ★]

Dude, as a gen-xer, I am screwed in the eyes of my elders. Brush it off and laugh. This blaming chit has been going on since the beginning of time. Their parents thought they were POSs too.

[late]

47 minutes ago, Razors Edge said:

Crap, are we blaming all of the group for some of its members again????

Sure, it holds up when discussing Texas or CAnada, but yuppies, too???? I call BS.

This was the beginning of a massive theft of wealth, the Yuppies would get their turn later.

https://www.amazon.com/Price-Inequality-Divided-Society-Endangers/dp/0393345068/ref=sr_1_1?crid=275HQ17C40WWQ&keywords=stiglitz+price+of+inequality&qid=1565639858&s=gateway&sprefix=stiglitz%2Caps%2C157&sr=8-1

[Page Turner]

2 hours ago, late said:

Still waiting for a coherent reply...

But we both know that isn't coming, not only no definition, but placing that in the larger context.

About Wavy Gravy, that was to highlight the eros/thanatos thing. You keep pretending I was being literal, when I was clearly using him as an exemplar.

You don't understand what Stewart was getting at, with the "We are as gods" line. But that's OK. I can start a thread about it, if you want, but I doubt anyone here would enjoy it. Being a god really sucks.

I started out saying there were several definitions of what it meant to be a hippie. Perhaps I should have said flavors, and SB was definitely one of those flavors. But he was also trying to make the world a better place.

...for all the real change on a worldwide and national scale that followed, it was a remarkable waste of intellectual resources.

The WEC crew down in Sausalito were long on ideas and short on political sophistication. I can see the appeal to a sci to fan.

But somebody needs to wade in at some point and get it done.

When you keep saying I don't understand, you go straight to the heart of why any meaningful discussion with you is impossible.  You are alone in your understanding on so many things, and you're happy that way.

 

 

 

 

[Dottleshead ★]

1 hour ago, Page Turner said:

...for all the real change on a worldwide and national scale that followed, it was a remarkable waste of intellectual resources.

The WEC crew down in Sausalito were long on ideas and short on political sophistication. I can see the appeal to a sci to fan.

But somebody needs to wade in at some point and get it done.

When you keep saying I don't understand, you go straight to the heart of why any meaningful discussion with you is impossible.  You are alone in your understanding on so many things, and you're happy that way.

 

 

 

 

I kinda feel a wee bit sorry for his wife. ?